177 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 04 January 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

Number of load outs, especially in that tonnage range, is what allows the clans to have more options in CW.

i.e. You never have to leave the handful of top tier mechs regardless of what load out you are going for. This is a sizeable advantage.

Having more options means mechs are less susceptible to being left behind when the meta shifts.





I own this mech and now no longer play it.

Aside from high energy mounts it is no different in damage output than a 4x CLPL Warhawk.

2x CLPL = 600m range, 26 damage, 20 heat.
3x LLAS = 585m range, 27 damage, 24.53 heat -20% quirk for 19.64 heat

So the 4N is slightly more heat efficient, and has slightly less range.

The Warhawk has upwards of 24 DHS and spent 24T on it's weapons, and also has a MK 1 TC.
The 4N has about 20 DHS and spent 30T on it's weapons.

The 4N has better weapon placement, the Warhawk is faster, and much more agile.

That stalker is vastly more sturdy than a Warhawk, too. Warhawks have really terrible hitboxes

Also, as a Clan assault, it basically has no place in CW.

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The Wubverine even with quirks, isn't half the mech the Storm Crow is.

I can say that I have not seen a single Wubverine in any CW match, and very rarely see them in the solo queue or team queue now that the initial excitement of IS quirks have died down.

Ignoring the SCR's flexibility (which makes it an awesome mech to own, no argument) as that doesn't help of the field, the Wubverine can absolutely play the legging game. It rarely gets used, less because it's a poor mech than because there are ridiculously great options in the TDR camp.

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The BNC3E is a great mech, it is not on the level of neither the King Crab nor the Dire Wolf when it comes to raw firepower. It's saving grace is it's ability to soak damage, but it's still not as powerful as the DWF.

The DWF is totally worthless in CW. It's just too slow, too clumsy. Even on defense, there are far too many covered paths, it's trivial to avoid a DWF's firepower. DWF's just don't happen in CW.

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You are overvaluing a lot of mechs, my experience doing 12 mans in CW has seen very little in the way of variety.

I agree completely on variety, though it goes both ways. Both sides use pretty much exclusively what works best.

As a clan player, though, fighting against IS 12 mans with 16+ ERPPC thuds? When there's 8 ERPPC thuds, each with replacements, under ECM cover in defence on borreal vault? You've got 8 ERPPC bolts hitting every .5s. And that's not some exaggeration - it's a sad reality. Try making an effective attack through that. They have better heat efficiency, better range, higher PPFLD, in sturdy standard engine chassis. They're every bit as effective up close (if anything, more effective, as the ERPPC velocity matters less then). I don't blame those IS players doing that, I'd be doing it too.

I don't even object to IS quirks overall. I just get growly when people keep crying that "Clan's have a range advantage" (when their only range advantage is in a ML vs. CERML comparison), and such, when IS can clearly totally overpower Clan's at range. I'll admit, the constant "waaaa clan range" makes me more grouchy about mechs like the 9S than I'd be otherwise, so I may be somewhat less objective than I'd like there.

But the 9S? It outperforms the old 4PPC stalker that was viewed as so objectionable that it got us ghost heat. Hell, you can run a 4ERPPC Thud, and group fire those 4 ERPPC's, and not shut down even eating ghost heat. At least the old 4PPC stalker had a minimum range and wasn't effective at a kilometer away.

(well, there was the 6PPC stalker too, but it was outright bad except at very low end play)

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I own about 80 mechs, and a full half of those are clan mechs.

Unlike others, I'm not a role player - I could give two squirts of piss about fake planets, or faction pride.

I am playing IS now, but I will be playing Clan in CW at some point in the near future.

I'm with you here, though of course I'm clan side right now and longing to play my IS mechs in CW.

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There are a lot of things I think need improving clanside, a number of mechs sorely need quirks, I think CERMLAS and CMPL heat can come down 0.5 points, I think UACs are bad weapons unless boated and need several improvement tweaks and I'd be perfectly OK with 15 pinpoint CERPPCs (on the tears on these forums!).

So please don't mistake me as some IS die hard who is only out for his faction, when I do solo or normal team queue drops - I'd much rather be in my SCR, HBR and TBR than either of my clunky Thunderbolts who I wouldn't even own if I wasn't in a unit doing CW.

I don't, I know your more objective than that. However, I suspect you're not seeing the same things we see. I'm not saying Clans are all underpowered or that IS is overpowered, and I understand that you dislike feeling stuck with just a couple mechs. Believe me, we get that same feeling on this side. Don't think we're all ecstatic to just play Stormcrows and Timberwolves with the odd hellbringer for ECM, that's not a lot of fun.

I'm still solidly of the opinion that Clan's should get a heavy speed nerf when a side torso is destroyed (nerf to cXL engines), unlocking of ES/FF (buff to weak clan chassis) and then a quirk pass... but even with that...

If the Thud 9S isn't nerfed, you're going to see about half the mechs in (serious) IS CW teams remaining TDR-9S's with that specific loadout.

[Aiden Skye]

Euri, on 03 January 2015 - 10:51 PM, said:

Well, all I'll say is I still see more Timber Wolf mechs and Hellbringer mechs than Thunderbolt mechs. If TDRs were that OP, they would be overwhelming the Heavy queue.

thunderbolts are too ugly to play. That is all.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

If the Thud 9S isn't nerfed, you're going to see about half the mechs in (serious) IS CW teams remaining TDR-9S's with that specific loadout.

So why cant they use the other IS mechs? What is so terrible about them? Are the only mechs people want to use the ones that can effectively boat 3 ERPPCs? Half the time, the only thing making mechs terrible is the people cant fit w/e loadout they want on them. Its not so much the mech sucks that the player cant put their magical 80 pt PPFLD lolpha into it...

[Wintersdark]

911 Inside Job, on 04 January 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

No one uses an IS ERPPC because it is the crapiest weapon in the game right now (I dont even call the Flamer a weapon). The only way it is usable is with the quirks

Strange, because I see teams like 228, who are one of the best groups of players in the game, sporting LOTS of them.

ERPPC's, on their own (clan and IS) are garbage weapons.

But ERPPC's on a TDR-9S? They're likely the best weapon in the game right now after quirks. With the 50% heat reduction, 25% cooldown increase and 15% velocity buff, they're firing at 7.5 heat, 3s cycle, 810m range, 1207m/s velocity. That's obscenely good.

Hell, just two ERPPC's in the tight high right shoulder mount are basically a 810m 15h unlimited ammo AC20 with hunchback 4G style firing speed.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Strange, because I see teams like 228, who are one of the best groups of players in the game, sporting LOTS of them.

ERPPC's, on their own (clan and IS) are garbage weapons.

But ERPPC's on a TDR-9S? They're likely the best weapon in the game right now after quirks. With the 50% heat reduction, 25% cooldown increase and 15% velocity buff, they're firing at 7.5 heat, 3s cycle, 810m range, 1207m/s velocity. That's obscenely good.

Hell, just two ERPPC's in the tight high right shoulder mount are basically a 810m 15h unlimited ammo AC20 with hunchback 4G style firing speed.

And there is where it gets OP....

[Aethon]

Euri, on 03 January 2015 - 10:51 PM, said:

Well, all I'll say is I still see more Timber Wolf mechs and Hellbringer mechs than Thunderbolt mechs. If TDRs were that OP, they would be overwhelming the Heavy queue.

There are far more IS than Clan chassis available right now; you will see more of each Clan chassis right now than you will later on. Furthermore, the Timberwolf is one of the three most iconic mechs in Battletech (the Atlas, Battlemaster, and Timberwolf have all been featured in Battletech's logo at some point), so you would see a lot of them, even if they sucked.

Hell, the Nova kind of sucks, but I pilot it anyway, because I have always loved the Nova. I am even learning to use it effectively, albeit situationally.

Edited by Aethon, 04 January 2015 - 10:27 AM.

[jlawsl]

The problem I hear is-TDR-9S is all that clan players see in CW. That it is OP because it outranges clan mechs and doesn't generate enough heat. From the other side I hear that it is ok as is, or tone it down a little bit.

A lot of these quotes from clan players come from CW, on one map. I admit to seeing a lot more TDRs then I ever did prequirk, but I am not seeing them put up huge numbers constantly. The best game I saw was from a 9SS with MPLs that did about 1200 damage and 6 kills. One game. I rarely see the TDR-9S break 500 damage in a solo match as ranges and maps vary too much for that range to come into play, and their are dozens of mechs that are a whole lot better close up then a mech with 3ERPPCs.

So, CW. I have played on the whole two maps you can play on in CW. One of them makes almost any type of range pretty pointless beyond that of a large laser or ac10. The other one is pretty nice for long range builds. Its the map mechanics that suck. From the stupid ramps that no defending unit would leave in place, to not being able to just blow the door up. Its a pretty weird design for that map. But that isn't totally an issue, because I have done solo drops in CW and not seen TDRs at all.

The problem most of these clan players are having is how the matches are set up. 12 man tryhard clan vs 12 man tryhard IS(either one vs solos equals death for the solo players 90% of the time). The issue lies with when you get people on both sides that make it their point to exploit every inch of the game in order to win, and they have to play each other again and again because of the matchmaker-I remember threads about how solos had to wait so long and it was said that groups jump to the top of the queue because they are already full, so get a group.

CW doesn't have that many people that play on it, especially solo players that don't care too much about any meta or have a favorite mech they would rather play then focusing on how to squeeze the most out of quirks and exploits. Those players don't want a 20-30 minute wait time to go against a 12 man tryhard team. So, where does that leave people? Playing against the same guys with the same mindset. So, if you are playing against the same 4 or 5 12 mans that have a set loadout, of course you are gonna see nothing but the same stuff.

Drop solo in CW or any other game mode-You won't see too much TDRx3+1FSR or Stormcrowx3+1Timberwolf-just my guess on some spammed drops people may see. You will see a crap ton more Stormcrows and Timberwolves in none CW games then you will see TDRs. And you will notice that, usually, the Stormcrows and Timberwolves are putting up a lot better numbers then most of the TDRS.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

That stalker is vastly more sturdy than a Warhawk, too. Warhawks have really terrible hitboxes

I personally don't think they are that much different.

The main issue is that you can't realistically go asymmetrical on the WHK and utilize a shield side - which in this specific circumstance vs. the 6x LLAS 4N, the 4N can't do anyway.

Against something like an Asymmetrical Misery, it becomes more apparent.

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Also, as a Clan assault, it basically has no place in CW.

This is mostly due to the state of Clan light mechs.

I've brought 2x Stalkers & 2x Fire Starters in CW, and it can work because Fire Starters are great.

You could do Warhawk, 2x SCR, Ice Ferret - but yes this is sub-optimal vs. 3x SCR + 1x TBR or 2x SCR + 2x HBR.

I'm still crossing my fingers for the clan quirk pass, all of the lights need serious quirks (they are T4 at best, some are T5) and the Warhawk definitely needs things to make it more competitive (I'm hoping for CERPPC velocity quirks, and -heat gen - I think the velocity is more important, because it directly impacts accuracy).

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Ignoring the SCR's flexibility (which makes it an awesome mech to own, no argument) as that doesn't help of the field, the Wubverine can absolutely play the legging game. It rarely gets used, less because it's a poor mech than because there are ridiculously great options in the TDR camp.

Well that's the point really.

Even with the quirks, the Wubverine remains a so-so mech.

Mostly because trying to boat 7 ton LPLs on a 55T mech is a losing proposition.

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

The DWF is totally worthless in CW. It's just too slow, too clumsy. Even on defense, there are far too many covered paths, it's trivial to avoid a DWF's firepower. DWF's just don't happen in CW.

King Crabs and ASDs aren't in much better of a position, it's really the game mode - and the tonnage restrictions.

The forums have basically been begging for the game to limit Assault mechs for months, it's unfortunate but it is what it is.

I agree completely on variety, though it goes both ways. Both sides use pretty much exclusively what works best.

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

As a clan player, though, fighting against IS 12 mans with 16+ ERPPC thuds? When there's 8 ERPPC thuds, each with replacements, under ECM cover in defence on borreal vault? You've got 8 ERPPC bolts hitting every .5s. And that's not some exaggeration - it's a sad reality. Try making an effective attack through that.

I promise it's not any easier bringing your 12 man light rush and facing a swam of Streak 30 crows, or pushing up to the gates on IS heavies/assaults and facing down triple/quadruple CER LLAS spam decks.


CW is the most competitive version of mechwarrior the average player has faced, these kinds of decks and counter decks are basically what we can expect for the forseeable future.

As long as any given drop deck has a reasonable counter, or isn't optimal in every phase then that's OK (ex: Jump Sniping at it's height had no realistic counters in a "random map" style of play - this was stifling because it wasn't a proper meta with play vs. counter play).

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

They have better heat efficiency, better range, higher PPFLD, in sturdy standard engine chassis.

Just a note on the heat, if you fire all 3 ER PPCs at once it takes you to at least 40% heat (it might be 50%, I'd need to check).

So it is certainly not that heat efficient to keep doing, and works during sniping trades because you can cooldown behind cover.

Once you get inside mid or brawl ranges, you don't really want to be hammering the alpha button all over the place.

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

I don't, I know your more objective than that. However, I suspect you're not seeing the same things we see. I'm not saying Clans are all underpowered or that IS is overpowered, and I understand that you dislike feeling stuck with just a couple mechs. Believe me, we get that same feeling on this side. Don't think we're all ecstatic to just play Stormcrows and Timberwolves with the odd hellbringer for ECM, that's not a lot of fun.

I'm still solidly of the opinion that Clan's should get a heavy speed nerf when a side torso is destroyed (nerf to cXL engines), unlocking of ES/FF (buff to weak clan chassis) and then a quirk pass... but even with that...

If the Thud 9S isn't nerfed, you're going to see about half the mechs in (serious) IS CW teams remaining TDR-9S's with that specific loadout.

The issue for the IS is that most of the rest of their heavies are sub-optimal, their mediums are all sub-optimal and right now there are two specific IS heavies that can put up a strong fight vs. the clans - and that's the 5SS up close or the 9S at range.


Everything else often requires XL fragility, is ammo reliant, doesn't have as much range, or as much versatility or lacks the firepower to win trades vs. SCRs, HBRs and TBRs.


Keep in mind, the SCR has as much or more firepower than most IS heavies, on a 55ton economical frame.

[MechWarrior9376871]

jlawsl, on 04 January 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

The problem I hear is-TDR-9S is all that clan players see in CW. That it is OP because it outranges clan mechs and doesn't generate enough heat. From the other side I hear that it is ok as is, or tone it down a little bit.

A lot of these quotes from clan players come from CW, on one map. I admit to seeing a lot more TDRs then I ever did prequirk, but I am not seeing them put up huge numbers constantly. The best game I saw was from a 9SS with MPLs that did about 1200 damage and 6 kills. One game. I rarely see the TDR-9S break 500 damage in a solo match as ranges and maps vary too much for that range to come into play, and their are dozens of mechs that are a whole lot better close up then a mech with 3ERPPCs.

So, CW. I have played on the whole two maps you can play on in CW. One of them makes almost any type of range pretty pointless beyond that of a large laser or ac10. The other one is pretty nice for long range builds. Its the map mechanics that suck. From the stupid ramps that no defending unit would leave in place, to not being able to just blow the door up. Its a pretty weird design for that map. But that isn't totally an issue, because I have done solo drops in CW and not seen TDRs at all.

The problem most of these clan players are having is how the matches are set up. 12 man tryhard clan vs 12 man tryhard IS(either one vs solos equals death for the solo players 90% of the time). The issue lies with when you get people on both sides that make it their point to exploit every inch of the game in order to win, and they have to play each other again and again because of the matchmaker-I remember threads about how solos had to wait so long and it was said that groups jump to the top of the queue because they are already full, so get a group.

CW doesn't have that many people that play on it, especially solo players that don't care too much about any meta or have a favorite mech they would rather play then focusing on how to squeeze the most out of quirks and exploits. Those players don't want a 20-30 minute wait time to go against a 12 man tryhard team. So, where does that leave people? Playing against the same guys with the same mindset. So, if you are playing against the same 4 or 5 12 mans that have a set loadout, of course you are gonna see nothing but the same stuff.

Drop solo in CW or any other game mode-You won't see too much TDRx3+1FSR or Stormcrowx3+1Timberwolf-just my guess on some spammed drops people may see. You will see a crap ton more Stormcrows and Timberwolves in none CW games then you will see TDRs. And you will notice that, usually, the Stormcrows and Timberwolves are putting up a lot better numbers then most of the TDRS.

Your fancy logic will never sway the underhive of crying clammers.

[Ultimax]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 January 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

So why cant they use the other IS mechs? What is so terrible about them?

Most of the IS mechs in the 55T to 75T range can not compete with the clan mechs like the SCR, HBR or TBR in that same range.

[Mordin Ashe]

jlawsl, on 04 January 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

...stuff...

Sorry, no. On both CW maps that TDR is OP, even though it is for a different reason on each one - part of a problem I can assure you, showing that current TDR meta has no drawbacks even in different scenarios.

Also, your idea about not that many TDR-9S in pugs is ridiculous, I have been playing against them until now and let me tell you, there are ridiculously many and new ones are still comming. If you get more experience in CW you will change your opinions, but right now what you say simply doesn't reflect what many have seen in battle, myself included.

Again, noone minds IS having another strong Mech. IS heavies are mostly very good - Dragons, Jagers, Thunderbolts, Cataphracts, Orions... The more the better, we need good Mechs. But what is OP is OP.

[Ozric]

It certainly looks like the ERPPC quirk could be wound back a little, but once balance has been achieved several other chassis/variants deserve similar buffs (K2, Awesome, Summoner spring to mind).

[MechWarrior9376871]

Just imagine if it had jump jets. Clammers would be crying in their pillows as they receive their daily dose of Butt Secks.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 04 January 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

As long as any given drop deck has a reasonable counter, or isn't optimal in every phase then that's OK (ex: Jump Sniping at it's height had no realistic counters in a "random map" style of play - this was stifling because it wasn't a proper meta with play vs. counter play).


Just a note on the heat, if you fire all 3 ER PPCs at once it takes you to at least 40% heat (it might be 50%, I'd need to check).

So it is certainly not that heat efficient to keep doing, and works during sniping trades because you can cooldown behind cover.

Once you get inside mid or brawl ranges, you don't really want to be hammering the alpha button all over the place.

Yeah, I'm aware. You're not going to be alphaing 3 in a brawl, instead you fire the two RT as one, then the sole LT ERPPC. Still, with those cooldowns and low heat, there's pretty much no better brawling weapons either. Even just two of the ERPPC's outclass a HBK-4G's AC20 at close range easily. At range, you can alpha snipe or chainfire supress. Chainfired, the 3 ERPPC's can basically fire all day.

This is my problem.

The firestarter rush can be met by streakboats, certainly: but that requires having the right set of mechs out when the rush comes. Streakboats are a terrible thing to have out when IS comes with heavies and assaults. In that case, you have a strong against-weak against situation.

There's not really much defense from a wall of 3 ERPPC Thuds. They'd brutal at long range, or at short, against everything the Clans have. They'd be less effective against a light rush baring significant skill but that's really not an option clans have.

Where ISN'T a wall of ERPPC thuds optimal?

[oldradagast]

KrazedOmega, on 04 January 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

You don't "adapt" to facing 16 of them in CW. At that point it's leaning more towards abuse, just like the light zergs. Sure it's effective, but I'm sure it's not what was intended and it doesn't really make the game fun for the side that it's used against.

A couple of them are fine, just a bit over the top. It's when you get entire lances full of them that it becomes a problem.

Which is the exact same thing IS players say when facing the standard triple stormcrow + timberwolf lineup in Clans... or when getting torn up by piles of Clan ERPPC + Gauss.

Not saying one side is "right" or "wrong" but stagnant mech design and gameplay is a problem, particularly in CW, and over the top mechs don't help. I'd rather see weak mechs buffed than strong ones nerfed, but you get the idea.

[EvilCow]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Where ISN'T a wall of ERPPC thuds optimal?

Things that move?

[Nightmare1]

I haven't run my TDRs since they got quirked, so I can't really say. What I was disappointed to see, was the PPC quirks for the 9S. I really hoped PGI would unroll some quirks that made use of its dual ballistic slots instead.

[Xetelian]

This thread is silly.

[Yokaiko]

jlawsl, on 04 January 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Drop solo in CW or any other game mode-You won't see too much TDRx3+1FSR or Stormcrowx3+1Timberwolf-just my guess on some spammed drops people may see. You will see a crap ton more Stormcrows and Timberwolves in none CW games then you will see TDRs. And you will notice that, usually, the Stormcrows and Timberwolves are putting up a lot better numbers then most of the TDRS.

Like hell, pug CW on IS you get REALLY frigging sick of Stormcrows....

[Wintersdark]

Yokaiko, on 04 January 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Like hell, pug CW on IS you get REALLY frigging sick of Stormcrows....

Play CW on clans, and you get REALLY frigging sick of Stormcrows, too. God, I'm tired of mine, and I dearly wish I had non-terrible options.

Everyone is all "teh timberwolves!" but most drop decks just have one; Stormcrows are the space fillers, and there's typically 2-3 in every deck. It's horribly tedious.

EvilCow, on 04 January 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Things that move?

Sadly, the players that matter are also the players that can actually hit things. If you can't hit a Timberwolf with a velocity boosted tdr-9s'd erppc's, you've got other issues to deal with.