233 replies to this topic

[Chocowolf Sradac]

Reaper3015, on 06 January 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Same two maps, same IS mechs over and over with perks that make them flat better than clan tech. Someone will say clan players are not playing because they are not "OP" well, no, its because with perks, IS mech drop decks pretty much are unstoppable with the shoddy hitreg on lights(still) and the fact that some IS mechs can blast out damage faster for less heat, with no penalty's which makes fighting them not even a challenge but downright suicide.

I fully agree and it still baffles me that people see this as "balanced' when it clearly is not. More maps that encourage fighting rather then just zerg rushing would be nice. Despite PGI's efforts it's still one of the most effective strategy instead of brawling which PGI wants us to do

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

MischiefSC, on 06 January 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

Yep. I also love all the 'well, jokes on you when nobody plays CW anymore!'

Because if you don't let bad teams stomp pugs so they feel like good teams, they just won't play!

If this game needs people who throw a fit and quit if they don't get spoonfed easy wins to be successful then it needs to fail.

Many of these units have been playing IS vs IS for a while or fighting IS as Clans. We responded by getting better and adapting. Suddenly it's turned around and now all these people are just quitting. That's so feeble it's worth a good laugh.

You adapted by having every single merc unit join your side and by using the single most broken mech in CW for its tonnage over and over again; how can I do that so I can be as good as you?

That takes skill bud.

I can't handle your skillz and adaptability.

Seriously though, from someone that wants both sides to have fun and be powerful; this is just dumb right now. I had no problem with clan vs IS or clan vs clan until I literally saw a team of 12 thunderbolts drops. It was a team of pugs and they nearly won against my 12 man on coms. The consensus was is we won, we can hold and win on defense, we can win by rushing but this is just not any fun.


P.S. You didn't all of a sudden go from losing a planet a night occasionally to gaining two from every clan every night by "adapting" over night. You did it by splaying nothing but PPCs all the beef and having every single merc unit in the game take pity on you.

Edited by Blueduck, 06 January 2015 - 07:08 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Freebie -

Tactics to deal with the ERPPC firing line.

1. Suicide gate-crasher. 2 mechs for each generator climb the middle mountain (not the edges) and JJ or even just walk to drop down *behind* the Generator. They'll have probably 2 people there but with the right loadout you can kill each generator at a cost of 1 mech with the rest of your group in full fighting form.

2. LURM the **** out of them. Have 4-6 mechs with JJS and NARC slip the gate and NARC some folks, all the ones with ECM, then pop some UAVs. Make it rain on the ones who are isolated; generally E6. The E7 guys may have 2 AMS on each mech and can handle the rain. The groups of 2 or 3 who have to be away from the F6 bundle will be very vulnerable to LRMs.

3. Play the hard rush attrition game. Sprint out with some torso-twisting Timbers being used as human shields by the guys behind them with some lights in the mix and bum rush them. They need a spread-out firing line and while they can chainfire reasonably well they are fat and a bit clumsy up close, plus they are actually as hot or hotter than most Clan energy builds.

Mix 2 and 3 for optimal success.

Once you kill the 2 TBolts they've likely got they're probably going to have lights for rushing - that's it. Fundamental key to dealing with the 9S lineup is breaking that initial line; they're not going to have big assaults capable of pushing you off once you get up to the base after that.

What you don't do is hang back and poke or play cautious. You play to speed and super-aggression.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

MischiefSC, on 06 January 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

Freebie -

Tactics to deal with the ERPPC firing line.

1. Suicide gate-crasher. 2 mechs for each generator climb the middle mountain (not the edges) and JJ or even just walk to drop down *behind* the Generator. They'll have probably 2 people there but with the right loadout you can kill each generator at a cost of 1 mech with the rest of your group in full fighting form.

2. LURM the **** out of them. Have 4-6 mechs with JJS and NARC slip the gate and NARC some folks, all the ones with ECM, then pop some UAVs. Make it rain on the ones who are isolated; generally E6. The E7 guys may have 2 AMS on each mech and can handle the rain. The groups of 2 or 3 who have to be away from the F6 bundle will be very vulnerable to LRMs.

3. Play the hard rush attrition game. Sprint out with some torso-twisting Timbers being used as human shields by the guys behind them with some lights in the mix and bum rush them. They need a spread-out firing line and while they can chainfire reasonably well they are fat and a bit clumsy up close, plus they are actually as hot or hotter than most Clan energy builds.

Mix 2 and 3 for optimal success.

Once you kill the 2 TBolts they've likely got they're probably going to have lights for rushing - that's it. Fundamental key to dealing with the 9S lineup is breaking that initial line; they're not going to have big assaults capable of pushing you off once you get up to the base after that.

What you don't do is hang back and poke or play cautious. You play to speed and super-aggression.

"Have 4-6 mechs with JJS and NARC slip the gate and NARC some folks"

Good idea, I'll just use my super broken lag shield firestarter that can jump the gate and not get blown apart..... oh yeah. We don't have any mechs that are fast, can jump the gate, and narc. Seriously man, do you have no idea what the current limitations are in the clan mechs right now?

"Play the hard rush attrition game."

So after I've sacrificed 2 mechs to open the gate I'm going to throw away my timberwolves which are severely limited on tonnage unlike the thunderbolt? And they are not that fat and clumsy up close, they have armor perks that make them just as survivable as the timberwolf at mid range, granted the timberwolf has a better all-arounder loadout.

"Once you kill the 2 TBolts they've likely got they're probably going to have lights for rushing - that's it."

Anyone can hold a tbolt push on defense. The problem is attacking the base; that is what people are frustrated at.

[MischiefSC]

Blueduck, on 06 January 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

You adapted by having every single merc unit join your side and by using the single most broken mech in CW for its tonnage over and over again; how can I do that so I can be as good as you?

That takes skill bud.

I can't handle your skillz and adaptability.

Seriously though, from someone that wants both sides to have fun and be powerful; this is just dumb right now. I had no problem with clan vs IS or clan vs clan until I literally saw a team of 12 thunderbolts drops. It was a team of pugs and they nearly won against my 12 man on coms. The consensus was is we won, we can hold and win on defense, we can win by rushing but this is just not any fun.


P.S. You didn't all of a sudden go from losing a planet a night occasionally to gaining two from every clan every night by "adapting" over night. You did it by splaying nothing but PPCs all the beef and having every single merc unit in the game take pity on you.

No, we did it by creating and deploying counter-tactics. Do you really think that every unit that stacks 9S are just automatically winning every single time in IS vs IS. Not even close. In fact the 8 9S + 4 lights setup isn't even the peak meta. Rock solid for defense on Boreal but weak against a light rush unless your whole team is 100% on point.

We adapted to playing against those teams that are facerolling you. Who do you think they have been playing against for the last month that they were not facerolling you guys?

No question, big coordinated teams sway the field in CW more than just about anything else. No question. That's not the 9S though. Remove the 9S tomorrow and the planets lost won't change. Large, coordinated groups have a big advantage in CW - they should. The thing is though that you can still adapt and find something that works in response, like everyone else did.

Or you can cry and go home. Whatever floats your boat.

[Sky Hunter]

Guys, you are still forgetting that it is the individual players that make up the team. Yes, the thunders and certain other mechs have a great advantage but it is still the teamwork that is implemented that make the biggest difference.

Lord, 228 and others had to put up hearing the BS about clans being OP while they used the same tactics (with slightly less quickness) with Clan mechs as they are using with IS mechs. While some quirks go way beyond the lore and throw any semblance of balance out the window it still comes down to the pilots and the teamwork.

Clan lights lack the speed, comparing a myst lynx to a commando puts both greater speed and firepower in the commando's territory but one must remember, the Myst is a scout more than anything, the Kit Fox can put on more firepower than equal IS lights, or can just as easily be the best dang support mech around and still have firepower and can still act as a scout. What the individual puts on his or her mech makes the difference in what role he or she should fulfill, as it is, IS mechs are for the majority firing more often (with the perks) and taking less heat with better range than clan mechs due to the perks being utilized. As it is, my IS mechs have the same module bonuses as my clan mechs but none of my clan mechs have the range perks, almost none with heat gen reduction perks or cooldown perks. I prefer my IS mechs for these reasons because they are far superior to the clan mechs because of the perks and most of my clan mechs get negative quirks but it is still up to the pilot to perform his or her role and the team to perform together, but the individual must be able to realize what role he or she needs to perform for the team, and the team must work together to achieve.

6 large units with FRR since a few large organized teams migrated, and 2 less Ghost units, 2 less Falcon Units, and some other changes have stripped the clans of the majority of their large organized groups and CGBI is being petulant (if you read the posts) and refusing to defend. This just means the remaining Ghost Bears will need to coordinate, the remaining Wolves to coordinate, and for the Jade...etc.

Teams will not coordinate with themselves, pugs often will not follow directives to go here or there, players enter battle to the detriment of their faction as they will not work with others and then turn around and blame others for their own failure.

Get with the program, the problem is the players more than the mechs, more than the maps and more with the boredom and frustration than anything else. This is an open Beta test. PGI will do some nerfing of some IS quirks (if not remove perks completely from both sides) and may even add some Clan perks, maps will be changed, balances will be attempted but regardless people will still complain, whine and moan.

[Klappspaten]

Man you Clanners, when you´re always complaining why you cant do that and cant do this you end up doing nothing. Oh, yeah, you already are doing nothing.

[jajsamurai]

Blueduck, on 06 January 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yeah, seriously, no role playing garbage. The beta is just gruelingly unfun with or without team in the way you have to win. Brawling is dead; its all about sniping and rushing.

I don't mind losing or losing planets, what I do mind is losing my interest in playing when I work full time and the evenings are only so long.

ok, lets try to be a little more productive here. complaining doesn't fix the problem, so lets work on solutions.
here are my suggestions:

first, I will say its not about the mechs. I've been with FRR since the start, and CGB was rolling us under every day. It was unstoppable and sometimes not very fun to play. look at the planets near the initial border. they list CGB units with not a single FRR unit first. That means there was not a single successful defense.
We got better organized and things improved. LORDS, QQ and 228 joining FRR was a major shift. they have carried pretty hard, and I give them full credit for our current success, but that's based on skill not hardware. I got slaughtered by LORDS a couple times when they were clan, so I know how you feel.

(ok, TDR-9S is cheap, I own one, and I admit it. they should reduce the cooldown reduction and the heat bonus a bit for better balance, but it doesn't need to be reduced much)

I learned something by dropping as a PUG with partial teams from Lords and 228. It wasn't so much about the individual skill or the mech build as about a solid and innovative battle plan which the whole team followed. (those guys are individually amazing though)

on the hot map, one lords player told the rest of us to follow him to alpha gate, breach the gate and push in to C3 location. From there defend and kill mechs. we did NOT rush the generators AT ALL. And after opening the gates it was a total brawl. We won by killing all enemy mechs, and then killing the generator. we did not rush, and after the first drop there wasn't much sniping either. A solid plan will let you avoid boring rush strategies and will allow you to brawl as much as you want. you will still need to snipe while opening the gates though, so learn to enjoy it and make your first drop a mech that can do that.

here is my solution to the current state of community warfare.

1- yes nerf the TDR-9S a little, because that mech is a little too much.
2- there should be some faction IRC servers, I've been thinking of setting them up myself but its a lot of work. this lets different groups get together to share tips and advice.
3- allow people in the same faction to drop as a group. this lets smaller units get together to form a 12 man as long as they are all in the same faction. getting together beforehand lets you talk strategy before the drop so you can coordinate your mech builds and drop order to fit the battle plan. currently you can only drop as a 12 man if you are all in the same unit. this means smaller units can't do it ever.
4- its hard to develop good tactics if you can't look around the map at your leisure. put the CW maps into the training area like all the other maps so people can practice and learn. the ability to study the map and find the best sniper spots, as well as the best approaches to AVOID the best sniper spots really helps. One game we slaughter some GB newbs with sniper fire. the next game we got slaughtered because the clans knew exactly were to stand to make it almost impossible for most of us to shoot at them while they open the gates. this subtle knowledge of the map makes a huge difference and it is hard to acquire without access to the map in a practice setting and a friend to tell you whether you are an easy shot or not.
5- I would allow groups to drop in at least the CW maps with less than 12 on 12 for practice matches without requiring MC. make it cost Cbills. this would make practice more available to the casual player, and make pugs like me a much better match for the organized teams. closer matches = more fun for everyone.
6- institute standard game types with normal maps as a tie breaker so there is more variety. If FRR wins a point and then CGB wins it back, have the third match for that point be an assault or skirmish game on one of the standard maps. to inject some flavor into it the FRR planets can use the snow maps to reflect our Scandinavian heritage or something like that while DC might use the desert maps more often.
This would help break up the repetitiveness of CW.
7-limit the number of battles per planet at a single time. I recommend 7 so you cant take a planet in a single 8 team drop. this limits the effectiveness of swarm tactics, and makes it more about who is winning a higher percentage. Skill, not numbers. I would also limit the number of ghost drops a team can get per hour to 2. this limits ghost dropping, and forces teams to go find a planet with defenders instead of just continuously ghost dropping for an unopposed victory. This also limits the effectiveness of dropping a bunch of teams right before the ceasefire.

get enough of your clan to repeat these suggestions to PGI and they may listen.

Finally, I recommend your clan institute a policy of using C3 voice Chat as a standard (because its free and supported by MWO) then the top player in the list sets up a channel for a PUG game and everyone joins. having VOIP for even the pug and small group games will make you much more competitive against guys like LORDS and 228.

Edited by jajsamurai, 06 January 2015 - 08:05 PM.

[Klappspaten]

Sky Hunter, on 06 January 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

...maps will be changed, balances will be attempted but regardless people will still complain, whine and moan.

That is the way of mwomercs.com

[Mr Beefy]

Klappspaten, on 06 January 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

This!

I mean really, kick the **** out of us if you have to, I will fight. I actually like uphill battles. But right now you people say that because we beat you a feew days in a row you wont play with us anymore. And thats just low.
With that behaviour you are breaking the game. If there really is an imbalance PGI needs the games, needs active players to get the meta data that PROVES an imbalance. If they don´t get that, things wont change, ever.

Ummmm I didn't say that.

[MischiefSC]

Blueduck, on 06 January 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

"Have 4-6 mechs with JJS and NARC slip the gate and NARC some folks"

Good idea, I'll just use my super broken lag shield firestarter that can jump the gate and not get blown apart..... oh yeah. We don't have any mechs that are fast, can jump the gate, and narc. Seriously man, do you have no idea what the current limitations are in the clan mechs right now?

"Play the hard rush attrition game."

So after I've sacrificed 2 mechs to open the gate I'm going to throw away my timberwolves which are severely limited on tonnage unlike the thunderbolt? And they are not that fat and clumsy up close, they have armor perks that make them just as survivable as the timberwolf at mid range, granted the timberwolf has a better all-arounder loadout.

"Once you kill the 2 TBolts they've likely got they're probably going to have lights for rushing - that's it."

Anyone can hold a tbolt push on defense. The problem is attacking the base; that is what people are frustrated at.

The Firestarter isn't the broken one. The Spider is. Firestarters are the fragile ones but pack more firepower. They are not significantly better than the Mist Lynx for hitboxes. Also we don't have a Firestarter with a missile hardpoint for NARC; we have to use Ravens or Jenners. Still works well, for units who like LRMs. For Clanners it's a better option than IS as we can't stockpile LRMs and still have backup weapons.

You can push through the TBolt defensive linup by bum-rushing them. I've done it with Griffins, Shads and Stalkers. I've watched it happen and work just fine. The front line of your guys is going to die; the 2nd line is going to face-stomp the tbolts. What you're doing is trading 2 waves of your mechs fo 2 waves of theirs - because after 2 waves of 9S they are almost without a doubt going to have a light and something else for support, maybe a wubberbolt. You buy them out of the 9S' with 2 waves and then they've got crap left. They can't run 2 Stormcrows, a Timber and a Hellbringer. When you've run them out of their 2 9S' you're going to find yourself running a Stormcrow and a Hellbringer against Firestarters, Spiders and Wubberbolts. Run a TW with mix of LRMs (for that cockpitshake) and lasers and expect to die early. Run your Scrows with ERMLs and focus CT; they're not going to have XLs. They're going to each have 3xERPPCs and a STD260. You'll roll them on flat DPS. You clear out most of their first wave with your first wave; your second wave go the same way, you'll roll the rest of their first and about half their second.

At this point they'll have a few 9S's left, some wubberbolts and some lights. You're still going to have stormcrows, Hellbringers and you should have a couple of guys on waves 3 and 4 with streak6s. The TDR 9S wrecks faces in a group when you can focus fire and stack up that PPFLD. They get increasingly less effective in smaller groups. You're better off with 3 wubberbolts than 3 9S'.

This isn't me armchair theorizing - this is what we do to deal with that, because we've been fighting it every single match for a month. This isn't some new thing - this is what IS vs IS matches are like. Attacker 1st wave is light zerg to clear ogens. Wave 2 is 9S and snipers. 3 and 4 will, depending on the group, be a light zerg THEN assault push or assault push THEN a light zerg. Defending it's either walls of 9S or NARC/TAG and LRMs, depending on unit/faction. What you're dealing with is almost every match.

It's only tough if you stay at range. A Tbolt dropdeck is a big gamble that you'll stop the enemy cold, at range, right out of the gate. They get past into a channel where you don't have long lines of sight that overlap to focus fire from several people at once and you're in for a bad time. They get lights in close to backstab and break up your coordination while they push to a brawl? Gonna have a bad time. You've got 2 solid waves, 1 mediocre wave and 1 weak wave. The first 2 get broken and you're pretty well boned.

There are some top tier competitive teams (228 comes to mind) who are going to **** you ever single time. Not much for that. Be a equally competitive 12man or expect to get stomped. The other 98% of units though drop similar decks but without the exceptional convergence for focused fire.

This isn't a new tactic. Answers to it have already been found.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

jajsamurai, on 06 January 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

ok, lets try to be a little more productive here. complaining doesn't fix the problem, so lets work on solutions.
here are my suggestions:

first, I will say its not about the mechs. I've been with FRR since the start, and CGB was rolling us under every day. It was unstoppable and sometimes not very fun to play. look at the planets near the initial border. they list CGB units with not a single FRR unit first. That means there was not a single successful defense.
We got better organized and things improved. but the real thing that saved our bacon is no doubt LORDS, QQ and 228 joining FRR. they have carried pretty hard, and I give them full credit for our current amazing success.

(ok, TDR-9S is cheap, I own one, and I admit it. they should reduce the cooldown reduction and the heat bonus a bit for better balance.)

But I learned something by dropping as a PUG with partial teams from Lords and 228. It wasn't so much about the individual skill as about a solid and innovative battle plan which the whole team followed. (those guys are individually amazing though)

on the hot map, one lords player told the rest of us to follow him to alpha gate, breach the gate and push in to C3 location. From there defend and kill mechs. we did NOT rush the generators AT ALL. And after opening the gates it was a total brawl. We won by killing all enemy mechs, and then killing the generator. we did not rush, and after the first drop there wasn't much sniping either. A solid plan will let you avoid boring rush strategies and will allow you to brawl to your harts content. you will still need to snipe while opening the gates though, so learn to enjoy it and make your first drop a mech that can do that.

here is my solution to the current state of community warfare.

1- yes nerf the TDR-9S a little, because that mech is a little too much.
2- there should be some faction IRC servers, I've been thinking of setting them up myself but its a lot of work. this lets different groups get together to share tips and advice.
3- allow people in the same faction to drop as a group. this lets smaller units get together to form a 12 man as long as they are all in the same faction. getting together beforehand lets you talk strategy before the drop so you can coordinate your mech builds and drop order to fit the battle plan. currently you can only drop as a 12 man if you are all in the same unit. this means smaller units can't do it ever.
4- its hard to develop good tactics if you can't look around the map at your leisure. put the CW maps into the training area like all the other maps so people can practice and learn. the ability to study the map and find the best sniper spots, as well as the best approaches to AVOID the best sniper spots really helps. One game we slaughter some GB newbs with sniper fire. the next game we got slaughtered because the clans knew exactly were to stand to make it almost impossible for most of us to shoot at them while they open the gates. this subtle knowledge of the map makes a huge difference and it is hard to acquire without access to the map in a practice setting and a friend to tell you whether you are an easy shot or not.
5- I would allow groups to drop in at least the CW maps with less than 12 on 12 for practice matches without requiring MC. make it cost Cbills. this would make practice more available to the casual player, and make pugs like me a much better match for the organized teams. closer matches = more fun for everyone.
6- institute standard game types with normal maps as a tie breaker so there is more variety. If FRR wins a point and then CGB wins it back, have the third match for that point be an assault or skirmish game on one of the standard maps. to inject some flavor into it the FRR planets can use the snow maps to reflect our Scandinavian heritage or something like that while DC might use the desert maps more often.
This would help break up the repetitiveness of CW.

get enough of your clan to repeat these suggestions to PGI and they may listen.

Finally, I recommend your clan institute a policy of using C3 voice Chat as a standard (because its free and supported by MWO) then the top player in the list sets up a channel for a PUG game and everyone joins. having VOIP for even the pug and small group games will make you much more competitive against guys like LORDS and 228.

Appreciate the discussion but the real problem at the end of the day is that IS has no decent way to play against clans at a range other than the T-bolt. I still don't know why they didn't give some of the IS good erlarge laser perks to match the clans; its the damn ppc that breaks the game. This has been a disaster every time they unnerf the ppc like this, seems like they learn nothing every time about insta pinpoint damage.

Give the IS some decent range perks, nerf the thunderbolt, limit the drop deck to a max of 2 mechs, maybe even 1 and I think you'll see people enjoying things.

Also, they are going to need to do something about the firestarter lag shield and jump jet exploit but that is a discussion best reserved for all lights.

Tx for the positive post.

[hybrid black]

Mryyden, on 06 January 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

When you take the CGB faction tag that is intention enough. It will be interesting to see where you end up and how many sides you play for.

were mercs we play for anyone we want to

[Mr Beefy]

Lets not do anything to the Tbolt..... its really not needed. As has been stated before, if it gets nerfed.... the next big thing will come along and if you don't adapt to defeat it, you be back on here complaining about it. Every game I drop in, I make it a point to find and seek at least 2 Thunderbolts... and to kill them. You have to close on them, you have to use cover, torso twisting... pilot it like you stole it man...do what ever to break up the shots and help them miss you. Its really that simple.. the Tbolts quirks are not a problem, the erppc quirks are not really OP at all. Sure it makes it interesting to fight against or to pilot one, but its not a free win pass when you do. Please....can we just stop all the nerfing.... talks of nerfing, thoughts of nerfing, it really gets old, and it keeps PGI chasing its tail.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

"The Firestarter isn't the broken one. The Spider is. Firestarters are the fragile ones but pack more firepower. They are not significantly better than the Mist Lynx for hitboxes. "

The spider has super broken hitboxes, the firestarters are sort of broken. The firestarter can also exploit the JJ exploit along with the fact it is much much faster than the Mist Lynx.

"This isn't me armchair theorizing - this is what we do to deal with that, because we've been fighting it every single match for a month."

The light rushes have been a bane since day 1. And I have no problem saying the super storm crow rush is just as broken and dumb. Regardless, you have not been fighting the PPC spam since day 1. This was recently exploited by 228 and it appeared in mass over this weekend along with all the mercs jumping ship. I had never seen it despite almost exclusively fighting IS for 3 weeks.

"You've got 2 solid waves, 1 mediocre wave and 1 weak wave. "

You can have 3 thunderbolts and a very strong medium or 2 thunderbolts an awesome and a firestarter. There is no weakness in that.

I will not argue with you that the Thunderbolt cannot be beaten; however, on the snow map he is heavily heavily favored to the point of stupidity. He can always just back up a bit and wait for them to crest.

Edited by Blueduck, 06 January 2015 - 07:56 PM.

[Nightshade24]

c'mon guys...

if the fact that a Thunderbolt 9S is a better ER PPC boat over a Warhawk or Direwolf... isn't the fact it's a better ER PPC boat over an awesome or catapult K2 worrying at least a tiny bit?....

The thunderbolt 9S came with only 1 ER PPC stock...

Why doesn't the Battlemaster, griffin, summoner, other thunderbolts, banshee, vindi, treb, etc have the same kinda quirks?

[Mr Beefy]

Blueduck, on 06 January 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

"The Firestarter isn't the broken one. The Spider is. Firestarters are the fragile ones but pack more firepower. They are not significantly better than the Mist Lynx for hitboxes. "

The spider has super broken hitboxes, the firestarters are sort of broken. The firestarter can also exploit the JJ exploit along with the fact it is much much faster than the Mist Lynx.

"This isn't me armchair theorizing - this is what we do to deal with that, because we've been fighting it every single match for a month."

The light rushes have been a bane since day 1. And I have no problem saying the super storm crow rush is just as broken and dumb. Regardless, you have not been fighting the PPC spam since day 1. This was recently exploited by 228 and it appeared in mass over this weekend along with all the mercs jumping ship. I had never seen it despite almost exclusively fighting IS for 3 weeks.

"You've got 2 solid waves, 1 mediocre wave and 1 weak wave. "

You can have 3 thunderbolts and a very strong medium. There is no weakness in that.

I will not argue with you that the Thunderbolt cannot be beaten; however, on the snow map he is heavily heavily favored to the point of stupidity. He can always just back up a bit and wait for them to crest.

A very strong medium? You mean like in my drop deck..... I have 2 Thunderbolts, one with 7 med pulse lasers and one with 2 ERPPC's and three medium lasers, A firebrand jager i just got, and a Blackjack X-1 ....hmmmm you can only bring a 45 ton mech with that deck.

Doesn't seem like that strong of a medium to me. And if the Thunderbolts are just so freaking OP why am I not running another in my drop ship? If Erppc's are so great with the quirk...why am I not running 3 of them in my Thunderbolt, and all three that have the quirks?

Nightshade24, on 06 January 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

c'mon guys...

if the fact that a Thunderbolt 9S is a better ER PPC boat over a Warhawk or Direwolf... isn't the fact it's a better ER PPC boat over an awesome or catapult K2 worrying at least a tiny bit?....

The thunderbolt 9S came with only 1 ER PPC stock...

Why doesn't the Battlemaster, griffin, summoner, other thunderbolts, banshee, vindi, treb, etc have the same kinda quirks?

Ummmm No.... it doesn't worry me at all.

Because PGI knew that if more then one IS mech was given such quirks, the tears would cause a flood with clan players. Riots would ensue and the end of the world would come.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 06 January 2015 - 08:06 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

"A very strong medium? You mean like in my drop deck..... I have 2 Thunderbolts, one with 7 med pulse lasers and one with 2 ERPPC's and three medium lasers, A firebrand jager i just got, and a Blackjack X-1 ....hmmmm

Doesn't seem like that strong of a medium to me. And if the Thunderbolts are just so freaking OP why am I not running another in my drop ship? If Erppc's are so great with the quirk...why am I not running 3 of them in my Thunderbolt, and all three that have the quirks?"


So you get to have 2 ppc thunderbolts and a pulse laser thunderbolt; pretty strong eh? Or you have the 2 thunderbolt, awesome, and small pulse laser firestarter, again, really strong hung?

I'm not biased though in that I think the 3 stormcrow, 1 Timberwolf dropdeck is just as dumb.

And this isn't about "your" drop deck, but a coordinated team that takes out 3 thunderbolts or 2 and an awesome.

Edited by Blueduck, 06 January 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[jajsamurai]

Blueduck, on 06 January 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

Appreciate the discussion but the real problem at the end of the day is that IS has no decent way to play against clans at a range other than the T-bolt.

Tx for the positive post.

Thunderbolt 5SS gets +25% range on an ER large laser which gives it better range than the ER PPC. I swapped out my 9S for a 5SS yesterday to try it out, and it works great. Wolverine 6K gets the same. both get heat bonuses as well. I run 4 ER large lasers on the TDR and I could do the same on the WVR.

We have other options, its just the 9S is currently what almost everyone uses, lack of creativity perhaps. I think a slight nerf is in order, but once it happens you will see some TDR-5SS's and WVR-6K's using ER large lasers I think.

some have mentioned that the nerf / buff cycle is never ending and wastes pgi's time. I acknowledge your point, and I don't disagree. I don't really want a nerf to the TDR, I would rather people just learn to counter it, like I had to learn to counter stormcrow rushes. But if PGI nerfs the TDR-9S a bit I will not be upset about it. For this reason, most of my suggestions had to do with helping pugs become more competitive with premades. that's what will make CW more fun. Harder and closer matches, not by messing with the hardware, but by helping lower tier teams become higher tier. Give them the tools to improve their tactics and the play will become more fun.

Edited by jajsamurai, 06 January 2015 - 08:31 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

jajsamurai, on 06 January 2015 - 08:19 PM, said:

Thunderbolt 5SS gets +25% range on an ER large laser which gives it better range than the ER PPC. I swapped out my 9S for a 5SS yesterday to try it out, and it works great. Wolverine 6K gets the same. both get heat bonuses as well. I run 4 ER large lasers on the TDR and I could do the same on the WVR.

We have other options, its just the 9S is currently what almost everyone uses, lack of creativity perhaps. I think a slight nerf is in order, but once it happens you will see some TDR-5SS's and WVR-6K's using ER large lasers I think.

And I've got no problem with laser on laser warfare. Again, I think more IS mechs need better range perks.

My problem is even at a range where I have the clan erlarge laser, max targeting computer, and range modules I'm still destroyed outright by thunderbolt ppcs. It isn't the perks alone but rather a combination of perks and the insta damage of the ppc.

This weapon has always been a problem when set out of control. I remember about a year ago the medium laser became extinct and all anyone used anymore was ppcs.

Its just a bad weapons system to allow to be spammed. I have always felt bad for the IS mechs in terms of range on the large maps but this is not the way to go about correcting the issue.

Tx again for the good discussion.