399 replies to this topic

[Basilisk222]

hybrid black, on 08 January 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

I just like to hear [Redacted] players reason on why they do things, speculation in TS on why gets out of hand sometimes and needs to clarified.

I just explained why it can be useful, and several reasons why. Regardless if you're a "uber" player that has better strategies, it doesn't mean that anything you say has any kind of merit or usefulness.

In fact, I pointed out you, on the SAME page of a forum, completely contradict yourself in practically back to back posts.

I'm a little glad you're stooping to the place where you have to be moderated. It means you've nothing to add to what I've said.

Edited by Kilgorin Strom, 08 January 2015 - 01:08 PM.

[Roadbeer]

hybrid black, on 08 January 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

no good players have AMS

No good player discounts any system when faced with an ever changing meta.

That 1.5 ton could save your life, or the life of a teammate, some day.

[xWiredx]

Here's the logic here:

Thunderbolt - 65 tons - 3 ERPPCs
Warhawk - 85 tons - 3 ERPPCs (stripped one off mine, and the targeting computer, just for heatsinks)

People saying the t-bolt isn't OP are saying that it makes sense a 20-ton lighter mech with less room for heatsinks should be able to outpace a 20-ton heavier mech with more room for heatsinks when firing the same weapons at the same rate.

You guys realize that at the bare metal, this doesn't make any sense at all, right? That's pretty much the definition of overpowered. It does more than it should be capable of doing. Every time somebody has done the math on this, they've come to the same conclusion: the quirk is out of line with what is reasonable.

[hybrid black]

Roadbeer, on 08 January 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

No good player discounts any system when faced with an ever changing meta.

That 1.5 ton could save your life, or the life of a teammate, some day.

some day but not with now LRM's are now

[Dawnstealer]

With all this hate, I have a 9S in my drop deck, but my initial drop is almost always in my Cicada 3M, and it has a TON of kills. I usually go three-quarters of the game without changing mechs because it's that effective. But again, it has ERLL - the only way to compete with the Clans at all is with range. Brawlers would be a lot more fun, but in my experience, you can't even get within long range before you're dead, soooo...

That leaves ERPPCs and ERLLs in a long-distance stand-off. And since there's one mech in particular that's designed for the ERPPC...

[edit: I run mine slightly non-meta - 2 ERPPCs in the right shoulder, but also with 2MLs and a bit more speed and dual AMS rather than the third ERPPC]

Edited by Dawnstealer, 08 January 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[MischiefSC]

xWiredx, on 08 January 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

Here's the logic here:

Thunderbolt - 65 tons - 3 ERPPCs
Warhawk - 85 tons - 3 ERPPCs (stripped one off mine, and the targeting computer, just for heatsinks)

People saying the t-bolt isn't OP are saying that it makes sense a 20-ton lighter mech with less room for heatsinks should be able to outpace a 20-ton heavier mech with more room for heatsinks when firing the same weapons at the same rate.

You guys realize that at the bare metal, this doesn't make any sense at all, right? That's pretty much the definition of overpowered. It does more than it should be capable of doing. Every time somebody has done the math on this, they've come to the same conclusion: the quirk is out of line with what is reasonable.

Speeds of mechs? Oh, and how much damage does the CERPPC do?

I can put Gauss + 2PPCs on a Cataphract. Is the cataphract better than the TW because the TW doesn't do that nearly as well as the Cataphract does?

False comparison is false. I can put 3 ERPPCs on just about any mech with 3 energy mounts, that doesn't mean it's a good build on that mech.

TDR 9S is a great ERPPC sniper. It can out-poke most Clan mechs. Clan mechs can out-LRM just about any IS mech, especially ton for ton. Also out-laser. Historically Clanners have had a huge, unquestionable range advantage. The TDR 9S shakes that up. It's not OP; it's just the best PPC sniper out right now. Up until now the Clans have had the best medium, best heavy and arguably best assault. Now there's 1 IS heavy that in some situations is better than the Clan heavy TW at sniping. What's funny is the rage that's produced.

[Mcgral18]

Zolaz, on 08 January 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

Space Furries complaining about mechs being OP. lol I suppose they should read the posts by Russ saying that the Thud isnt OP by their numbers.

Might you post this statement?

[Roadbeer]

MischiefSC, on 08 January 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

Speeds of mechs? Oh, and how much damage does the CERPPC do?

I can put Gauss + 2PPCs on a Cataphract. Is the cataphract better than the TW because the TW doesn't do that nearly as well as the Cataphract does?

False comparison is false. I can put 3 ERPPCs on just about any mech with 3 energy mounts, that doesn't mean it's a good build on that mech.

TDR 9S is a great ERPPC sniper. It can out-poke most Clan mechs. Clan mechs can out-LRM just about any IS mech, especially ton for ton. Also out-laser. Historically Clanners have had a huge, unquestionable range advantage. The TDR 9S shakes that up. It's not OP; it's just the best PPC sniper out right now. Up until now the Clans have had the best medium, best heavy and arguably best assault. Now there's 1 IS heavy that in some situations is better than the Clan heavy TW at sniping. What's funny is the rage that's produced.

What's even more humorous is that 1 v 1, the TDR doesn't stand a chance against most mechs, So what this thread falls back to is Teamwork being OP.

[Ace Selin]

Yep 1 on 1 the TDR is pretty average at best and horrible on hot maps, and doesn't do too well on small maps either.

But yes a gang of them are pretty formidable but so is a gang of Stormcrows, Madcats, Direwolfs or dual Gauss K2s.

The 9s is very, very situational & if it wasn't for CW no one would be even talking about it being too powerfull for its weight class.

Edited by Ace Selin, 08 January 2015 - 02:43 PM.

[Zoid]

xWiredx, on 08 January 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

Here's the logic here:

Thunderbolt - 65 tons - 3 ERPPCs
Warhawk - 85 tons - 3 ERPPCs (stripped one off mine, and the targeting computer, just for heatsinks)

People saying the t-bolt isn't OP are saying that it makes sense a 20-ton lighter mech with less room for heatsinks should be able to outpace a 20-ton heavier mech with more room for heatsinks when firing the same weapons at the same rate.

You guys realize that at the bare metal, this doesn't make any sense at all, right? That's pretty much the definition of overpowered. It does more than it should be capable of doing. Every time somebody has done the math on this, they've come to the same conclusion: the quirk is out of line with what is reasonable.

I wonder if half the clan crying comes from thinking the two are identical. The clan version does 15 damage, the IS does 10. Yes, the clan version spreads the damage a bit but that's really not a huge deal unless you're facing terrible pilots who don't know how to torso twist. A Warhawk will thus deal 45 damage to a TBolt's 30. If your target absorbs one volley in each side torso, the Warhawk deals 15 damage to the CT while the TBolt does none.

Though the really hilarious part of all this crying is how the clans were saying for months that "Clans aren't OP, just the TBR/SCR/DWF!" Now that the IS has ONE 'mech that can really handle the clan laser boats (and then only because of insane 50% heat reduction quirks), the clanners are all screaming for a nerf. Think about that for a minute, the only 'mech that the clans view as a threat required 50% heat reduction in order to get there.

[LameoveR]

Clans were superior to the inner sphere of skill and technique, and then TDR-9S went on the field of battle.
And the clans began to cry!
Many tears were shed and many mechs were screwed by this infernal mech!

Sorry for Google translate.

[Harathan]

Roadbeer, on 08 January 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

No good player discounts any system when faced with an ever changing meta.

That 1.5 ton could save your life, or the life of a teammate, some day.

You can do it in 1 ton these days, don't forget.

Edited by Harathan, 08 January 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[Harathan]

xWiredx, on 08 January 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

Here's the logic here:

Thunderbolt - 65 tons - 3 ERPPCs
Warhawk - 85 tons - 3 ERPPCs (stripped one off mine, and the targeting computer, just for heatsinks)

People saying the t-bolt isn't OP are saying that it makes sense a 20-ton lighter mech with less room for heatsinks should be able to outpace a 20-ton heavier mech with more room for heatsinks when firing the same weapons at the same rate.

You guys realize that at the bare metal, this doesn't make any sense at all, right? That's pretty much the definition of overpowered. It does more than it should be capable of doing. Every time somebody has done the math on this, they've come to the same conclusion: the quirk is out of line with what is reasonable.

We're not saying the 9S isn't OP, exactly. Generally what we're doing is laughing at the clans for calling a mech OP that has basically done nothing more than level the playing field.

EDIT - Sorry for the consecutive posts, should have merged those.

Edited by Harathan, 08 January 2015 - 04:07 PM.

[Grendel408]

Okay Clanners... listen the **** up already.

Us folks aligned to an IS faction were at a serious disadvantage for a good while during the beginning of CW. Someone discovered the TDR-9S to be a superb Mech to use for all-around matches in CW. We could meet the range, and have a somewhat leveled field of battle. Give up the argument already... Clan Mechs are ******* broken too, stop crying.

"IS Lights are OP... IS Thunderbolts are broken... we don't have any quirks..."

Stop crying about the IS Meta... you Clanners have many of your own unique advantages. Example: XL Engines that can still operate after losing a side torso... IS can't... you see us complaining? TDR-9S has an XL Engine... is as broad as a barn door... easy target. I die from losing my XL Engine more than I ever do losing my CT in my TDR's. Next think you know... my TDR-5S with 4 LL's is going to get complained about too cause I took advantage of the quirks.

Did you Clanners cry about the FS9 Partystarter too? Is that why they nerfed the quirks there?

I read through the first three pages of the thread and honestly... the Mods need to close this **** because it's now a pointless argument between folks. This is a game... got a suggestion for the Devs, find the right place to post about it... and stop crying.

Edited by Grendel408, 08 January 2015 - 04:22 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Quote

Us folks aligned to an IS faction were at a serious disadvantage for a good while during the beginning of CW.

Learn it, it was not a disadvantage of mechs - it was population driven one side had far more peoples in queue than the other. This ******* is no argument for Nerfs or Buffs of Mechs. Nor make any sense of saying clans have edge on is or the other way around.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Vassago Rain, on 07 January 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

Dat dougram design, man.

I always adored the original Dougram design for the Thunderbolt. Best looking mech in the original 3025 TRO in my opinion. I just had to say though: DAMN, that's a nice model! Probably the best looking sculpt of that design I've seen yet. I used to have one from the old Robotech Defenders "Strike Force" model kit set from Revell back in the 80's at 1/72 scale (I think) and even if that one was nice it didn't hold a candle to _that_ sculpt there!

I WANT!

[Nightshade24]

Adamski, on 07 January 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Wouldn't a Summoner with max armor, 2 PPC, a TC1 and 22 heatsinks still be putting out more DPS than the 9S with 3 ERPPC and 18 heatsinks? The Summoner will also be able to jump and move 25% faster as well.

Admittedly it wont have the high hardpoints, but it will have 5 jumpjets for poptarting.

Nightshade24, on 07 January 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

Limited to one role?

I've had quite a few matches that are losses because those tihngs are fighting my team (deffenders or attackers, doesn't matter) within 200 meters range...

7.5 heat for each ER PPC on a thunderbolt 9S.

let's compare this mech to the warhawk statistically.

Thunderbolt = TDR-9S

non stop chain fire = 20 seconds till it over heats. (heat neutral map)

Warhawk = url=http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=191&l=ef316c26f3385811d4f8ce72d8b5d7655e1d4280]WHK-PRIM stock[/url]

non stop chain fire = 6 seconds till it over heats.

Warhawk = WHK-PRIME 4 er ppc + targeting pc

non stop chain fire = 7 seconds till over heats

Warhawk = WHK-PRIME 4 er ppc

non stop chain fire = 9 seconds till over heat

Warhawk = WHK-PRIME 3 er ppc (3.3 tons short)

non stop chain fire = 15 seconds till over heat (main problem = under weight, under powered for assault, etc).


so the most extreme situation still has the warhawk failing to be on par to a thunderbolt 9S.

the common build (the targeting computer one) can only win against a thunderbolt when it has 3 warhawks versus 1 thunderbolt. (in damage peformance)

I will not bring the direwolf into the question because these mechs can not simply carry that many heatsinks to use up all the weight while our heatisnks is smaller then the IS.

if your telling me when 1 TDR < 3 Warhawks
(65 ton verse 255 tons)

also the fact that the TDR has higher velocity ER PPC's still after the target computer for the Warhawk...

Then there is something wrong here....

Compare it to literally any clan mech. No clan mech in game can compare to the Thunderbolt 9S.
Even compairing to 'weaker' IS mechs like the stalker, awesome, jager, etc.

We still can't compare.



When I played CW in from day 1 I never saw the clans have this 'dominance' over the inner sphere and preventing them from opening the gates. half the time we had issues keeping them from destroying the gates before our first person died.

In CW now. I'm seeing 8+ thunderbolt 9S's.

I never seen 8+ timberwolfs/stormcrows in CW have you?


The clan heat problems for energy weapons and IS quirks makes it clear...

Another example is the locust 1V, (you can have 2 of them with 2 gauss crabs if you want)

Locust 1V without any pilot skills can out do a timberwolf in range combat. and this is a 20 ton light mech.
(most timber builds only got 2 er large lasers and 4 er meds, the locsut only has 1 er large laser)

it is heat neutral even on sulfur as well. I mean if the op timberwolf is so op I wounder what that makes the locust...


I fail to see the point you made. You say this if like it's revenge but for what? this never happened to the inner sphere when fighting clans, at least not to THIS degree.

I said this in page 4.

Not even the direwolf or warhawk can out do the thunderbolt.
This is hard statistical math. You can't deny that the thunderbolt out peforming the awesome, warhawk, and direwolf in role of ER PPC boating is wrong.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Grendel408, on 08 January 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Okay Clanners... listen the **** up already.

Us folks aligned to an IS faction were at a serious disadvantage for a good while during the beginning of CW. Someone discovered the TDR-9S to be a superb Mech to use for all-around matches in CW. We could meet the range, and have a somewhat leveled field of battle. Give up the argument already... Clan Mechs are ******* broken too, stop crying.

&quot;IS Lights are OP... IS Thunderbolts are broken... we don't have any quirks...&quot;

Stop crying about the IS Meta... you Clanners have many of your own unique advantages. Example: XL Engines that can still operate after losing a side torso... IS can't... you see us complaining? TDR-9S has an XL Engine... is as broad as a barn door... easy target. I die from losing my XL Engine more than I ever do losing my CT in my TDR's. Next think you know... my TDR-5S with 4 LL's is going to get complained about too cause I took advantage of the quirks.

Did you Clanners cry about the FS9 Partystarter too? Is that why they nerfed the quirks there?

I read through the first three pages of the thread and honestly... the Mods need to close this **** because it's now a pointless argument between folks. This is a game... got a suggestion for the Devs, find the right place to post about it... and stop crying.

We're very sorry for saying anything about your mech. No one will suggest or talk about anything from now on. We very much appreciate you setting us all straight. Everyone should just accept the balance the way it is an never look or question anything. Even a weapon system that has broken the game time and time again when buffed disproportionality.

I really enjoyed the curse words you threw in their too; it really helped solidify you argument that we should just @$#@ up and let you win.

Granted most clan players also play IS and want both sides to have a fair time that includes brawling. From now on though we will be more considerate to your feelings and just be quiet so you can enjoy the troll mech that according to you didn't even know you had in your arsenal until you were led by the hand to show what 36 ppcs firing in force could do in CW.

Sorry again!

[Podex]

Just because a mech does something better than something else does not make it OP. You have to weigh strengths AND weaknesses. A locust can eat a 9S for lunch, so does that make the locust even more OP than the 9S?

Edited by Podex, 08 January 2015 - 05:00 PM.

[Davers]

Blueduck, on 08 January 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

We're very sorry for saying anything about your mech. No one will suggest or talk about anything from now on. We very much appreciate you setting us all straight. Everyone should just accept the balance the way it is an never look or question anything. Even a weapon system that has broken the game time and time again when buffed disproportionality.

I really enjoyed the curse words you threw in their too; it really helped solidify you argument that we should just @$#@ up and let you win.

Granted most clan players also play IS and want both sides to have a fair time that includes brawling. From now on though we will be more considerate to your feelings and just be quiet so you can enjoy the troll mech that according to you didn't even know you had in your arsenal until you were led by the hand to show what 36 ppcs firing in force could do in CW.

Sorry again!

For brawling to flourish it requires either 1. all long range weapons to be inaccurate or low damage, or 2. brawling weapons to be super powerful to the point that one 'brawling alpha' is 2-3x more effective than a 'sniper alpha'.