399 replies to this topic

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

Do you really think a 65 ton is better then 200 to 255 tons of mechs.

I think the side with 200-255 needs to go to the practice room...

[xe N on]

I'm not so sure anymoe. Before playing the TDR I found it reasonable to nerf them down. However, actually now playing them I'm not that sure anymore. The largest drawbacks of TDRs are the huge side torso which makes it impossible to mount XL engines.

That limits the TDRs in using heavier weapon load outs like ballistic weapons as the Jaegermechs.

It also has only mediocre weapon hard points. To less slots for SRMs for front load damage, no center torso energy hard point to go zombie if both torsos are gone.

Still, I find the 50% ERPPC heat reduction quite too strong. However, next to no inner sphere mech used ERPPCs before. Even PPCs are quite rare beside in Awesomes.

Instead of buffing the TDR 9s to a level at which it is the only mech capable of efficiently using them makes me ponder if it would not be better to buff IS ERPPCs as whole by reducing the heat from 15 to 12.

Edited by xe N on, 11 January 2015 - 06:28 AM.

[xe N on]

Nightshade24, on 11 January 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

IS ER large =

Heat: 8
Damage: 9
Range: 675
Max Range: 1,350
Reload: 3.25
Duration: 1.25
Tons: 5

Clan ER large =

Heat: 10
Damage: 11
Range: 740
Max Range: 1,480
Reload: 3.25
Duration: 1.5
Tons: 4

Slight addition.

Edited by xe N on, 11 January 2015 - 06:32 AM.

[Zerex]

Nightshade24, on 11 January 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

so... you agree that 1 Thunderbolt is equal to 3 Warhawks or 2 and a half awesomes?

Do you really think a 65 ton is better then 200 to 255 tons of mechs.

Key number, 255 tons. Even with a line up of 3 warhawks (which breaks the 240 ton limit) it is still barely better then just 1 thunderbolt...

Its quite clear you don't understand the maths behind of this, if this is how u work out the true meaning of value of a mech a Firestarter is over 600 tonnes worth of weight and a timberwolf is over 600 tonnes, go back and redo your maths with the correct info used this time to work out a value for them.

personally i'd like to see the breakdown and maths with results for DPS per ton for a U/AC5 dire whale, a ERPPC warhawk 9S and Timberwolf.
I already know which is the winner

[Alexander Steel]

I don't think it's possible to have a game that's PvP based and not have constant Nerf Hearding.

1. People don't like to lose and tend to blame everything but themselves for losses.

2. People like to win, and ignore everything but their "skill" when it comes to those wins.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 11 January 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[Zerex]

If you take a Hellbringer and fit 3 ERPPC's you end up with a mech that along this trend of thought is now more powerful than the ThunderBolt 9S for pure alpha dmg (with longer cool down rests) by 50%. 30 point dmg of the 9S to the 45 point dmg of the Hellbringer. which would mean that a Hellbringer is now worth 4 Warhawks if i'm reading your post right.

So the clans have a 60 ton mech with ECM that is worth 340 tonnes (4xWarhawks)
Makes the ThunderBolt 9S look rather gimp, the 9S must need a buff or all IS mechs and weapons need to be improved 8 fold....

SARCASM....

please try to understand the basics of the game before screaming about OP mechs
The 9S does need toning down by a touch, i'd say leave the quirks as is but change the value of the heat reduction down to 30%. 15% general and 15% ERPPC's, 50% is just crazy high numbers.

[Ridir Semii]

Tadmium, on 06 January 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

.....so ....anyone who plays this game actually enjoy it? Cause I hear allot of crying about a game....just sayin but I though this was for fun?.....am I wrong?

yea, I enjoy it, usually, when metagame ^&*(^(&* aren't being rude ^%&(*tards....

Also, stop calling all clanners out because a FEW of them claim we are all uber elite pilots, I am mediocre at best, have said it several times on the forums, don't be douches and lump all of us together,its what the clanners whining about the 9s are doing to you guys...

Really, what is and has become "OP" is the incessant complaining about this mech or that mech...

I will never tell someone to "learn to play," however, in many cases, "learn to play better" is a very viable option for those whining about t-bolts, timberwolves and stormcrows

[Kin3ticX]

Holy #$%6, you guys are really over complicating this.

It is simply just that fact that a 7.5 heat ERPPC is pushing the envelope. The relationship of the ERPPC across mechs is highly warped. To the point where the only real PPC solution for IS is the 9S. On top of that, the clans have nice stuff but they really don't have a serious C/ERPPC counterpart to the 9S.

Well, I guess you can look at it two ways. A half ERPPC heat 65 tonner or a 65 tonner with effectively the equivalent of ~36 doubles. Probably more like 40 if you include pilot lab upgrades. That is the root of the problem.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 11 January 2015 - 09:48 AM.

[dezgra]

I think we all need to step back and look at what we are doing here. We as a community are crying over spilled beer or milk...what ever. If we continue to cry, PGI will react, yes?... maybe? I see many more fish to fry than "tweaking" mechs all the time. If we spend all PGI's resources making every mech perfect or vanilla, they will never have the time to finish the core components of the game before WE ALL go broke. I say enjoy your FUBAR mechs in public drops, and your OP mechs in CW for now and let the developers finish the game. An OP mech or two will not break the game! INCOMEPLETE game is FAIL! I need to take my blood pressure meds...thanks.

[ApolloKaras]

lol.... this post...


MS just switched back from IS to Clan I don't think we're having any issues.

[Zerex]

Saxie, on 11 January 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

lol.... this post...


MS just switched back from IS to Clan I don't think we're having any issues.

a mech is a mech, the 9S is slightly OP in a 1v1 at range but team work and skill have a far bigger fairing on the battle.
this is of little difference to organized comp teams, it will stay for a while and drop away like the ppc/ac meta or timberwolf ppc/gauss meta of old.

[Repasy Cooper]

Zerex, on 11 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

a mech is a mech, the 9S is slightly OP in a 1v1 at range but team work and skill have a far bigger fairing on the battle.
this is of little difference to organized comp teams, it will stay for a while and drop away like the ppc/ac meta or timberwolf ppc/gauss meta of old.

On the contrary, it makes ALL the difference. What happens when a comp team drops all in this mech? Stomp. And you're arguing this doesn't matter? Yes I agree that teamwork is key in this game, but when u have 2 comp teams go at it the match shouldn't be decided because of 1 "slightly" OP mech, it should be decided by who is the better strategist.

If this meta-build fades away it will surely be an improvement as far as I'm concerned. Frankly, it's a crutch. Everyone who has tried to argue otherwise has failed, so...

[Zerex]

Repasy, on 11 January 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

On the contrary, it makes ALL the difference. What happens when a comp team drops all in this mech? Stomp. And you're arguing this doesn't matter? Yes I agree that teamwork is key in this game, but when u have 2 comp teams go at it the match shouldn't be decided because of 1 "slightly" OP mech, it should be decided by who is the better strategist.

If this meta-build fades away it will surely be an improvement as far as I'm concerned. Frankly, it's a crutch. Everyone who has tried to argue otherwise has failed, so...

Been both sides of it and have to say between 2 12 man comp teams this really makes little difference, sure it gives one team a advantage at range, but its down to the clan team to cut that range down or don't engage at range and make those hot builds come in close to brawl, to call it a crutch is really over stating it. i don't understand what u mean by arguing it away? its a slightly better mech at range than the timberwolf, which is an alpha tier mech, if u can't learn to deal with it by not letting it dominate you and the game ur playng then its your short comings not a god like mech that is unbeatable.

Its funny because if u look at the timberwolf or stormcrow as a crutch, no will ever be able to convince anyone their not crutches, as a crutch would always be the top line mechs that make up the main back bone of a team.

[Nightshade24]

Zerex, on 11 January 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

Its quite clear you don't understand the maths behind of this, if this is how u work out the true meaning of value of a mech a Firestarter is over 600 tonnes worth of weight and a timberwolf is over 600 tonnes, go back and redo your maths with the correct info used this time to work out a value for them.

personally i'd like to see the breakdown and maths with results for DPS per ton for a U/AC5 dire whale, a ERPPC warhawk 9S and Timberwolf.
I already know which is the winner

yes... and you pretend a king crab can't do a UAC 5 boat any better or worse over the direwolf? =l

And the Firestarter doesn't take up the role of a 600 ton mech, any other light mech can closely match the DPS, if not it can out run it or out range it or out sustained DPS it.

I am talking about a ER PPC boat being an ER PPC boat, and I can tell you a Firestarter isn't a better ER PPC boat over a thunderbolt and warhawk.

Changing the discussion all you might. I still want to see justice for the banshee, awesome, and warhawk.

If you really want to go talk about the firestarter, go to another thread and complain how the firestarter is OP for you and how no one bloody runs a FLAMER on a FIRESTARTER.

Because ya know... no flamers on a firestarter while having it's current quirks is like a Hunchback 4G having Machine gun and ER large laser quirks. THen you see 1 med las, 2 er large laser, XL, 3 MG hunchbacks running around instead of the AC 20 brawler it is.

This kinda relates to how most awesomes and warhawks can't do there PPC role thanks to the thunderbolt and are forced to do ER large laser or pulse boating.

My comparisons are fair. If they are not then tell me WHAT advantage the warhawk has over a thunderbolt with both ER PPC boating? Besides armour (which isn't that much of an advantage, go as the cicada, ice ferret, gargoyle. They will love to tell you how they perform like a mech 20 tons smaller then it with the only advantage being armour) there is nothing for the warhawk advantage...

Targeting computer is bloody out of the question because (besides crit chance) the ER PPC' quirks on the thunderbolt out does the max targeting computer a warhawk can carry.

Tell me what is the point of taking ER PPC's on ANY clan mech besides a light who will most likely solo a ER PPC with jumpjets and ECM like all light snipers. (even then... ER large laser light mechs for clans seem to highly outweigh the ER PPC lights...)

Besides enthusiasts or people who really like ER PPC's I can't think of any reason why a person will not run a large pulse laser instead of a er large laser.

I think the best thing to do atm is give each clan mech a light quirk with a dynamic system. (non weapon specific quirks = CT, weapon specific quirks = omnipod.) while the rest of the changes goes towards unnerfing clan tech (no damage drop of Cl LRM 20 withen 180 meters, no splash damage for er ppc's, etc)


You can't go on and say that the Thunderbolt 9S is not OP with the trio of ER PPC's. (if you do say it isn't, then I expect you saying everything else is UP).

If you go bring the Direwolf with 6 UAC 5's into the question again let me bring this quote into the question:

"[color=#000000] [/color] Its speed and armor protection matches that of an Atlas, but it has superior potential firepower with fifty and a half tons of free pod space for weapons and equipment. It is these traits which saw the 'Mech christened Daishi (Japanese for "Great Death") by the criminal underbelly of the Draconis Combine, a name that would be proven grimly accurate time and time again."

Having the direwolf not be the best (in 3050) in potential firepower is like havign a WWII game where a Fw 190 out turns a Spitfire.


Not saying the direwolf should be a death star but it is plagued with a few problems, Large profile, large CT. can't use Endo or FF. Can't switch engine. Locked heatsinks. (prevent large weapons in ST). etc.

It isn't that much more of a walking death machine then a king crab or what ever.

There are mechs that are amazing at there role.

catapult, mad dog, longbow, Blood kite are famous for there LRM boating abilities.
Awesome, Warhawk, Banshee, adder, known for there large amounts of PPC's.
Raven? Famous for the ECM abilities.
Firestarter? famous for crowd control and large quantities of flamers.


Thunderbolt? it isn't famous for doing a full dropship mech deck of ER PPC supporting alone. It's a Skirmisher. Look through the load outs and notice how the only range weapon is a single LRM and PPC while it also has Medium lasers, machine guns, srm's, etc through the variants.

There is no reason for this thing to be the best ER PPC mech in game.

There are reasons for the Panther, Katapult, Banshee, Awesome, Warhawk, Adder, and Timberwolf to be the best. But not a single reason for the Thunderbolt 9S.

[Bows3r]

Nightshade24, on 22 January 2015 - 03:00 AM, said:

yes... and you pretend a king crab can't do a UAC 5 boat any better or worse over the direwolf? =l

And the Firestarter doesn't take up the role of a 600 ton mech, any other light mech can closely match the DPS, if not it can out run it or out range it or out sustained DPS it.

I am talking about a ER PPC boat being an ER PPC boat, and I can tell you a Firestarter isn't a better ER PPC boat over a thunderbolt and warhawk.

Changing the discussion all you might. I still want to see justice for the banshee, awesome, and warhawk.

If you really want to go talk about the firestarter, go to another thread and complain how the firestarter is OP for you and how no one bloody runs a FLAMER on a FIRESTARTER.

Because ya know... no flamers on a firestarter while having it's current quirks is like a Hunchback 4G having Machine gun and ER large laser quirks. THen you see 1 med las, 2 er large laser, XL, 3 MG hunchbacks running around instead of the AC 20 brawler it is.

This kinda relates to how most awesomes and warhawks can't do there PPC role thanks to the thunderbolt and are forced to do ER large laser or pulse boating.

My comparisons are fair. If they are not then tell me WHAT advantage the warhawk has over a thunderbolt with both ER PPC boating? Besides armour (which isn't that much of an advantage, go as the cicada, ice ferret, gargoyle. They will love to tell you how they perform like a mech 20 tons smaller then it with the only advantage being armour) there is nothing for the warhawk advantage...

Targeting computer is bloody out of the question because (besides crit chance) the ER PPC' quirks on the thunderbolt out does the max targeting computer a warhawk can carry.

Tell me what is the point of taking ER PPC's on ANY clan mech besides a light who will most likely solo a ER PPC with jumpjets and ECM like all light snipers. (even then... ER large laser light mechs for clans seem to highly outweigh the ER PPC lights...)

Besides enthusiasts or people who really like ER PPC's I can't think of any reason why a person will not run a large pulse laser instead of a er large laser.

I think the best thing to do atm is give each clan mech a light quirk with a dynamic system. (non weapon specific quirks = CT, weapon specific quirks = omnipod.) while the rest of the changes goes towards unnerfing clan tech (no damage drop of Cl LRM 20 withen 180 meters, no splash damage for er ppc's, etc)


You can't go on and say that the Thunderbolt 9S is not OP with the trio of ER PPC's. (if you do say it isn't, then I expect you saying everything else is UP).

If you go bring the Direwolf with 6 UAC 5's into the question again let me bring this quote into the question:

"[color=#000000] [/color] Its speed and armor protection matches that of an Atlas, but it has superior potential firepower with fifty and a half tons of free pod space for weapons and equipment. It is these traits which saw the 'Mech christened Daishi (Japanese for "Great Death") by the criminal underbelly of the Draconis Combine, a name that would be proven grimly accurate time and time again."

Having the direwolf not be the best (in 3050) in potential firepower is like havign a WWII game where a Fw 190 out turns a Spitfire.


Not saying the direwolf should be a death star but it is plagued with a few problems, Large profile, large CT. can't use Endo or FF. Can't switch engine. Locked heatsinks. (prevent large weapons in ST). etc.

It isn't that much more of a walking death machine then a king crab or what ever.

There are mechs that are amazing at there role.

catapult, mad dog, longbow, Blood kite are famous for there LRM boating abilities.
Awesome, Warhawk, Banshee, adder, known for there large amounts of PPC's.
Raven? Famous for the ECM abilities.
Firestarter? famous for crowd control and large quantities of flamers.


Thunderbolt? it isn't famous for doing a full dropship mech deck of ER PPC supporting alone. It's a Skirmisher. Look through the load outs and notice how the only range weapon is a single LRM and PPC while it also has Medium lasers, machine guns, srm's, etc through the variants.

There is no reason for this thing to be the best ER PPC mech in game.

There are reasons for the Panther, Katapult, Banshee, Awesome, Warhawk, Adder, and Timberwolf to be the best. But not a single reason for the Thunderbolt 9S.

Well, you're wrong in so many ways, first off, who in their right mind uses the Banshee for a PPC boat, the meta is 3 AC/5, something it performs extremely well, the Banshee does not need help.

Yeah, the stock loadout for the Thunderbolt, while good in canon, this is not canon, and I have news for you, in MW:O it is a mess, simply a mess, anyone who runs it stock should be ashamed.

And the Dire Wolf is significantly more powerful the the King Crab, it does a U/AC-5 boat quite a bit better, not to say the Crab is bad, just worse for DPS and raw firepower.

Don't kid yourself the Thunderbolt tanks much better then any Warhawk. But I can agree on one thing, the Warhawk should get some ER PPC buffs, not over-doing it like the Thunderbolt, but maybe 5% cooldown and 10% less heat generation per Prime arm omni-pod to start with, and tweak it from there.

The Firestarter A has much higher DPS then any other light 'mech aside from other Firestarters, and they're not running away from any properly built meta Firestarter.

[Bigbacon]

yea...thunderspam is boring...

seeing folks using them as just fast tanks with little to no weaponry. 1 MPL??? guess it works to draw fire or something.

[Mordin Ashe]

So many Thunderbolts... They are the no.1 IS Mech I encounter in CW. Not even Firestarters are as common.

[Mott]

Zerex, on 11 January 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Russ already said the 9S will be toned down a little well in advance of this sale being announced, so yea its a bit easy to "predict" whats going to happen when the people in control tell you whats going to happen.
Don't act all smart and all knowing while screaming its all a marketing ploy to steal your money under the old guise of P2W, only for the them to Nerf it.

just remember that the Nerf was announced before the sale was announced, and if you bought the 9S in the sale you bought it knowing the hammer was coming down on it.

There is no conspiracy, just people that want to rage about nothing to make noise or people who who find it easier to rage not bothering to read the truth or both.

You've already been told... but you need to be told again.

NO.

Git yer sheeeyit straight if you're going to rag on somebody.

[Joseph Mallan]

I can bring 3 Thunderbolts and a 45 tonner.

How does that stack up against

2 Timber Wolves a Stormcrow and an Adder?

[Mott]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 January 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

I can bring 3 Thunderbolts and a 45 tonner.

How does that stack up against

2 Timber Wolves a Stormcrow and an Adder?

Depends.... do the mechwarriors on both side of the fight know what they're doing? If so, the mechs taken are a wash and the fight comes down to player skill.

If one or the other is less experienced, knowledgeable or capable... then his opponent's "OP deck" is going to win.