653 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Praehotec8, on 08 January 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

I just think there is no way unlocking endosteel will be allowed into the game without some balancing mechanic, so I am pushing for clan ST destruction penalties, as that hits all clan omnimechs equally (so far anyway).

As for changing engine sizes....well I wouldn't mind too much, but I think it would probably be considered unfair by a majority of players.



Yes, but as soon as you say something like, "all (or most) IS mechs use endo," someone else pops in and brings up how the atlas does not always use it or something similar.

Honestly...the clan engines are not really the issue with clans...

The issue with clans...honestly, is the lack of variety in weapons viability. The only thing competitive for clans is lasers, anything not named L4Z0Rz is in pitiful shape....except gauss.

Now, all you see worth mentioning for builds are basically...X version of laser puke on 1 of 3 chassis (of which the DW is not one of those...).

The other big issue I see with clans is basically that the bad chassis are terribad (Tier 4/5), and the good chassis are Tier 1 (NOT some "God Tier 0" either mind you). Plus, you cannot get any 2 people to agree on what makes a clan mech good, much less can you even get 2 people to agree how good or bad they are. In many cases you cannot even get 2 people to agree that clan mechs are even "too good" at all...

The reality is, TW is a solid T1, but not all alone by itself there. As the "Jack of all trades heavy" T1...it might be most versatile...but it is less effective at many things that other mechs do much better. It also has some very average hit boxes. But, I digress...

The other obviously good mech is the SCR, and it is a solid T1, not all alone either...but it is probably the most versatile of all the clan mechs...simply because it can do some things the TW cannot.

Now, you take those 2 mechs plus the hellbie with ECM...those mechs are the kings of peaking and versatility. So, if you are using L4Z0Rz, which mechs are you going to take? The 3 usual suspects.

The hellbringer is also likely a solid T1 mech for the role it fills...not as versatile as the others...but it does have the "magic Jesus box". So there is that...

Everything said and done, you have 3 T1 mechs, 2 in the same weight class, limiting the amount of overlap in a tonnage constrained drop deck, and they all run mostly similar builds...using mostly the same weapons, that do mostly the same damage, in mostly the same manner, with mostly the same terrible heat efficiency....

So, it seems like anything the clans do strongly is much more prevalent because omnis...but really, the issue is not the good chassis, it is that there are no other options. Hence the good ones look *so* good, because a Suckoner/No-va/Spladder/PeaceDove/Happymutt is just not that appealing outside of unique niche roles at best....

[Pariah Devalis]

Brody319, on 08 January 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

for ballistics,
Ac2s 1 pellet
Ac5s 1 pellet
Ac10 2 pellets
AC20 3 pellets.

would vastly improve them personally.

not much you can do for LRMs.

Heck, even a 1, 2, 3, 4 progression might be enough. Do not want to ask for too much, now. C-LRMs.... Yeah, not sure what I would change. Being able to use them under 180 is still extremely nice. I would also gladly trade the 2.5/10/2.5 spread of C-ERPPC for a simple 12.5 pinpoint C-ERPPC.

Edit:

Again, though, without a way to free up tonnage somewhere, anywhere, our ability to customize anything will still be extremely limited. Basically (INSERT SINGLE OR DOUBLE WEAPON HERE) + ERMLas. The scant few tons we can salvage from an Endosteel upgrade would do wonders for the Nova (can you imagine a UAC20+6 ERSLas setup?), Summoner, and the Gargoyle.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 08 January 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Dagorlad13]

Pariah Devalis, on 08 January 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

Heck, even a 1, 2, 3, 4 progression might be enough. Do not want to ask for too much, now. C-LRMs.... Yeah, not sure what I would change. Being able to use them under 180 is still extremely nice. I would also gladly trade the 2.5/10/2.5 spread of C-ERPPC for a simple 12.5 pinpoint C-ERPPC.

If there are IS mechs that can fire three ER PPC alphas more than once without overheating, than there is no reason for Clan ER PPCs to do 2.5/10/2.5, they should be doing 15 pinpoint damage. Like I have said before, two Clan ERPPCs fired together for 30 pinpoint damage without overheating is no different than three IS ERPPCs fired together for 30 pinpoint damage without overheating.

[Brody319]

IronClaws, on 08 January 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

If there are IS mechs that can fire three ER PPC alphas more than once without overheating, than there is no reason for Clan ER PPCs to do 2.5/10/2.5, they should be doing 15 pinpoint damage. Like I have said before, two Clan ERPPCs fired together for 30 pinpoint damage without overheating is no different than three IS ERPPCs fired together for 30 pinpoint damage without overheating.

people still complain that clan PPCs do more damage. I doubt you will ever get a bunch to agree to unnerfing them to 15 pinpoint damage.

[J0anna]

Lily from animove, on 08 January 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

is that? my 24 srm adder would like to date your Firestarter.

Hence the reason I said "most", besides your srm 24 adder will only catch a firestarter if he/she lets you - not to mention that I specified players of equal level. Killing a bad player in a 'superior' mech is not something we should balance the game against.

[Pariah Devalis]

IronClaws, on 08 January 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

If there are IS mechs that can fire three ER PPC alphas more than once without overheating, than there is no reason for Clan ER PPCs to do 2.5/10/2.5, they should be doing 15 pinpoint damage. Like I have said before, two Clan ERPPCs fired together for 30 pinpoint damage without overheating is no different than three IS ERPPCs fired together for 30 pinpoint damage without overheating.

Yeah, but that assumes the ability for that Thud to do that is OK and should be acceptable as the norm. Personally, I think the TDR is a little too good right now, by virtue of its durability quirk AND its extremely high mounted weapon placement. Therefore, I operate under the process that that particular TDR will be brought down a little, hopefully in concert with other IS mechs being improved a little bit so that the IS has several worthwhile mechs.

This is not, and should not ever be, an us vs them situation. Not when overall game balance is concerned. Imbalance impacts all of us.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 08 January 2015 - 04:53 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Moenrg, on 08 January 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Hence the reason I said "most", besides your srm 24 adder will only catch a firestarter if he/she lets you - not to mention that I specified players of equal level. Killing a bad player in a 'superior' mech is not something we should balance the game against.

well my adder is not a one man show and when thet firestarter doesn't wants to to watch the battle he will have to come into srm range, or did I missed the speed quirk that he can outrun srms lately?

[Kuritaclan]

IronClaws, on 08 January 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

If there are IS mechs that can fire three ER PPC alphas more than once without overheating, than there is no reason for Clan ER PPCs to do 2.5/10/2.5, they should be doing 15 pinpoint damage. Like I have said before, two Clan ERPPCs fired together for 30 pinpoint damage without overheating is no different than three IS ERPPCs fired together for 30 pinpoint damage without overheating.

Well damagewise compared - you don't figure in weight.. Also this has nothing to do directly with the op's topic. If then it is indrectly linked. And to be honest i do not fear the 30 pinpoint alpha of the TDRs i rather be concered about ther 7.5 Heat for 10 damge longrange fast speed quirked damage they can dish out a long time without overheating.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 08 January 2015 - 04:57 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Lily from animove, on 08 January 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

well my adder is not a one man show and when thet firestarter doesn't wants to to watch the battle he will have to come into srm range, or did I missed the speed quirk that he can outrun srms lately?

Quirk: Phase Armor. FS9 will intermittently phase out of physical reality, allowing objects such as SRMs, Lasers, and insults, to pass harmlessly through the space it is occupying.

[Gyrok]

Pariah Devalis, on 08 January 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Quirk: Phase Armor. FS9 will intermittently phase out of physical reality, allowing objects such as SRMs, Lasers, and insults, to pass harmlessly through the space it is occupying.

Pfftt...now we are talking about current ghost quirks? LOL!

[Dagorlad13]

Kuritaclan, on 08 January 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

Well damagewise compared - you don't figure in weight.. Also this has nothing to do directly with the op's topic. If then it is indrectly linked. And to be honest i do not fear the 30 pinpoint alpha of the TDRs i rather be concered about ther 7.5 Heat for 10 damge longrange fast speed quirked damage they can dish out a long time without overheating.

Clan tech is supposed to be lighter, more compact and more reliable, otherwise it is not Clan tech. Plus Clans have fixed components to balance out the more compact weapons and equipment.

Edited by IronClaws, 08 January 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Without derailing this thread too much...I think this discussion brings to the table the obvious flaw with the way PGI went about balancing clan mechs at first.

Having locked FF/Endo/Engine/DHS looks good on paper, if all of the mechs were the same on paper. Unfortunately they are not. Hence you have the mechs that are blessed with the best of all worlds, such as the holy trinity, and must compare them to the mechs that are not so blessed, Mad Dog and Hellbringer, and those that are down right cursed, such as the Summoner or the Adder. Simply by looking at the spec sheet you can tell right off the bat if a mech is going to be worthwhile.

Anyways back on topic. I like the idea and I believe that for mechs that are deemed bottom of the barrel, such as the Adder/Nova/Summoner, allow for floating FF/Endo at first. Let the community know upfront, that, if these mechs turn into the new holy trinity that they will have their crits locked to bring them in line. Those that are okay without Endo but could really make them shine, such as the Mad Dog or Hellbringer, have locked FF/Endo right from the start.

Another way to balance Endo is to remove quirks when you apply it. Say for instance the Mad Dog has a quirk for -15% heat to LPL on its prime arms. Applying Endo puts in a +15% heat to LPL. This still allows for quirks to promote stock builds, but at the same time provides room for customization while keeping the power creep to a minimum.

[Dagorlad13]

Pariah Devalis, on 08 January 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Quirk: Phase Armor. FS9 will intermittently phase out of physical reality, allowing objects such as SRMs, Lasers, and insults, to pass harmlessly through the space it is occupying.

It actually sends any shell, missile, or laser that does more than one point of damage into another dimension, leaving the Firestarter virtually unscathed.

[Kuritaclan]

IronClaws, on 08 January 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Clan tech is supposed to be lighter, more compact and more reliable, otherwise it is not Clan tech. Plus Clans have fixed components to balance out the more compact weapons and equipment.

For sure but to overcome this advantage it needs quirks to do so. And the problem of the TDR 9s isn't the same heat for the same damage while shooting 3 ERPPCs despite ghostheat. It is the "absurde" heat efficiency using the ERPPCs in Chainfire or 2+1 fire rate that give this mech the edge in barrage fire on range no clan mech can compete with nor the other is mechs who have quirks for ppcs like the awsome. And here it isn't place to complain about this. We are here discussing FF/ES unlock for clan mechs, what will make other weaponsystems than the usual laser vomit available on not that good chassis. And if those are unlocked, would this make the mechs top tier, so we could see some more variability in the clan drop deck? - This is just a question of balance clanmechs within another - not clans vs is.

WhoDidTheElf, on 08 January 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

Another way to balance Endo is to remove quirks when you apply it. Say for instance the Mad Dog has a quirk for -15% heat to LPL on its prime arms. Applying Endo puts in a +15% heat to LPL. This still allows for quirks to promote stock builds, but at the same time provides room for customization while keeping the power creep to a minimum.

Despite the numbers "of-15%heat to +15heat oO", your idea of adjustable quirks connected to other equipment characteristics is nice but i think it would be a heavy pain to code this into the game without failures. Yes the idea of linking is that what stock mechs need to help new players, but i think PGI don't have the ressources to do so even if they would like your idea.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 08 January 2015 - 06:00 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

It's not the mech, it's the pilot.

God, Bishop Kurita, I can't believe you've forgotten already! Maybe if you adapted and overcame, or at least tried to hit and fade some?

[WhoDidTheElf]

Kuritaclan, on 08 January 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Despite the numbers "of-15%heat to +15heat oO", your idea of adjustable quirks connected to other equipment characteristics is nice but i think it would be a heavy pain to code this into the game without failures. Yes the idea of linking is that what stock mechs need to help new players, but i think PGI don't have the ressources to do so even if they would like your idea.

Admittedly I don't know what goes into coding quirks or the like, but I just don't see a simpler way to balance clan mechs since they, literally, were not all created equal.

But staying more true to the point, to balance those that are way down on the bottom, allowing for IS styled Endo would go a long way to making them competitive. If it proves to be to OP, lock them. If that still proves to be OP well then...I don't know what to say.

[Kuritaclan]

Vassago Rain, on 08 January 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

It's not the mech, it's the pilot.

God, Bishop Kurita, I can't believe you've forgotten already! Maybe if you adapted and overcame, or at least tried to hit and fade some?

What are you talkin 'bout? I do not get what you wanna say. Are you making a argument ad hominem? Or talking about our skills to drive mechs?

Edited by Kuritaclan, 08 January 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 08 January 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

Heck, even a 1, 2, 3, 4 progression might be enough. Do not want to ask for too much, now. C-LRMs.... Yeah, not sure what I would change. Being able to use them under 180 is still extremely nice. I would also gladly trade the 2.5/10/2.5 spread of C-ERPPC for a simple 12.5 pinpoint C-ERPPC.

Edit:

Again, though, without a way to free up tonnage somewhere, anywhere, our ability to customize anything will still be extremely limited. Basically (INSERT SINGLE OR DOUBLE WEAPON HERE) + ERMLas. The scant few tons we can salvage from an Endosteel upgrade would do wonders for the Nova (can you imagine a UAC20+6 ERSLas setup?), Summoner, and the Gargoyle.

I'm fine with the ER PPC as is....aside from projectile speed. Increase the GH to ludicrous speed above two, or even widen the GH window (1-1.5 second or incur GH) if needed, to compensate. The arcing doesn't bother me though.

[Bishop Steiner]

WhoDidTheElf, on 08 January 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

Anyways back on topic. I like the idea and I believe that for mechs that are deemed bottom of the barrel, such as the Adder/Nova/Summoner, allow for floating FF/Endo at first. Let the community know upfront, that, if these mechs turn into the new holy trinity that they will have their crits locked to bring them in line. Those that are okay without Endo but could really make them shine, such as the Mad Dog or Hellbringer, have locked FF/Endo right from the start.

Another way to balance Endo is to remove quirks when you apply it. Say for instance the Mad Dog has a quirk for -15% heat to LPL on its prime arms. Applying Endo puts in a +15% heat to LPL. This still allows for quirks to promote stock builds, but at the same time provides room for customization while keeping the power creep to a minimum.

This is an excellently thought out game plan, I like it a lot. And yeah, part of the whole idea is to get an idea what tier the clans "are" or can be, and THEN quirk them. Or requirk/unquirk as needed to balance.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

I'm fine with the ER PPC as is....aside from projectile speed. Increase the GH to ludicrous speed above two, or even widen the GH window (1-1.5 second or incur GH) if needed, to compensate. The arcing doesn't bother me though.

Arcing doesn't bother me per say, but the pinpoint damage to heat ratio feels off to me. The splash, while nice, is not why people would take the ERPPC, after all.