653 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Im in 2 minds about this. The only already T1 mech it would help at all is the Direwolf and tbh after considering it i dont think it would help it a lot.. it already has plenty of tonnage so only a very few builds would benefit..

But how do you propose it works exactly? Should it be dynamic, like IS mechs or should PGI hardlock the slots in advance? Should mechs such as the Warhawk and Summoner be able to remove Ferro Fibrous and install Endo, or just add Endo? What about the Timber and Stormcrow, can they remove FF if they want more crit space?

I do think as well its possible it might make the Hellbringer and Maddog very, very, very good (especially the Hellbringer if the crit slots are dynamic, since you could force them all into that right arm which no one uses), so there is that to consider as well.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 09 January 2015 - 03:55 AM.

[kapusta11]

Why not just unlock ALL fixed equipment and make another pass on Clan TECH, not mechs?

[Widowmaker1981]

kapusta11, on 09 January 2015 - 03:58 AM, said:

Why not just unlock ALL fixed equipment and make another pass on Clan TECH, not mechs?

Basically because that forces PGI to create the odd as hell situation where clan weapons are MUCH worse than their IS equivalents, since they cannot change the weight or slots of them (due to it screwing stock builds), since weapons are the only real thing to balance with at that point and they have to balance out the 7 slot upgrades, Clan XL engines and 2 slot DHS.

Even the TBR, SCR and DW are far from optimised as far as build descions go, SCR is closest.

TBR wants to drop to a 350 or 325 engine and probably dump FF for more space.
DWF wants to upgrade to a 350 engine and add Endo
SCR.. wants to drop to a 300-325 and put the heatsinks in there. Like i said the SCR is close.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 09 January 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 January 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:

Im in 2 minds about this. The only already T1 mech it would help at all is the Direwolf and tbh after considering it i dont think it would help it a lot.. it already has plenty of tonnage so only a very few builds would benefit..

But how do you propose it works exactly? Should it be dynamic, like IS mechs or should PGI hardlock the slots in advance? Should mechs such as the Warhawk and Summoner be able to remove Ferro Fibrous and install Endo, or just add Endo? What about the Timber and Stormcrow, can they remove FF if they want more crit space?

I do think as well its possible it might make the Hellbringer and Maddog very, very, very good (especially the Hellbringer if the crit slots are dynamic, since you could force them all into that right arm which no one uses), so there is that to consider as well.

imho it should be dynamic, because otherwise you have issues with the diffrent omnipods and their individual hardpoints.
I mean, look at the Nova, if you put it on the arms, some weapons ae unable to be used (bigger ballistics) if you put it in the Sidetorsi, rather much the same. or DHS have to go to arms, which would me make not using ES at all, because better a single DHS in the sidetorso, than 2 DHS in the arms..

dynamic distribution is the better thing because it will not have weird sideeffects we have to pay attention to

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 January 2015 - 04:12 AM.

[kapusta11]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 January 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

Basically because that forces PGI to create the odd as hell situation where clan weapons are MUCH worse than their IS equivalents, since they cannot change the weight or slots of them (due to it screwing stock builds), since weapons are the only real thing to balance with at that point and they have to balance out the 7 slot upgrades, Clan XL engines and 2 slot DHS.

Even the TBR, SCR and DW are far from optimised as far as build descions go, SCR is closest.

TBR wants to drop to a 350 or 325 engine and probably dump FF for more space.
DWF wants to upgrade to a 350 engine and add Endo
SCR.. wants to drop to a 300-325 and put the heatsinks in there. Like i said the SCR is close.

Worse than IS? What the hell are you talking about? DIFFERENT, EQUAL - yes, but worse? It's straight up BETTER at the moment.

[Lily from animove]

kapusta11, on 09 January 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

Worse than IS? What the hell are you talking about? DIFFERENT, EQUAL - yes, but worse? It's straight up BETTER at the moment.

what?

IS Ac's have PPFLD, and no crappy stream
IS lasers burn shorter an are more heat efficient., they also have a faster firecycle becaue of the shorter beamduration.
IS LRM's fire in volleys, making them hit more missiles by decreasing chance to hide and ams to shoot down missiles.
They are not all straight up better, some are worse, some a different. Some a better

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 09 January 2015 - 04:11 AM, said:

imho it should be dynamic, because otherwise you have issues with the diffrent omnipods and their individual hardpoints.
I mean, look at the Nova, if you put it on the arms, some weapons ae unable to be used (bigger ballistics) if you put it in the Sidetorsi, rather much the same. or DHS have to go to arms, which would me make not using ES at all, because better a single DHS in the sidetorso, than 2 DHS in the arms..

dynamic distribution is the better thing because it will not have weird sideeffects we have to pay attention to

But one of the disadvantages of the currently top tier clan mechs is that most of their 'useful' crit spaces (legs, head, CT) are taken up by locked FF/ES crits - do we unlock these and allow them to be dynamic? Or are they only dynamic for the mechs that dont yet have them? That stands to possibly make the HBR BETTER than the Timber, since with ES/FF it is more optimised (325 engine is sensible size, 375 isnt really) and it has better hardpoint mounts and ECM.

[Widowmaker1981]

kapusta11, on 09 January 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

Worse than IS? What the hell are you talking about? DIFFERENT, EQUAL - yes, but worse? It's straight up BETTER at the moment.

The ONLY clan weapon that can be considered straight up better than the IS counterpart is the C-ERML. The Autocannons are so much worse as to be never used.

The weight and slot savings on the clan weapons are NOT RELEVANT since the locked in bad build choices mean that the tonnage you gain is wasted in most cases, only final builds matter - case in point: the TBR cannot run Twin gauss on a 75 ton mech, despite having the hardpoints for it and C-Gauss being 12 tons, whereas IS CAN run twin Gauss on 65 ton mechs despite them weighing 15 tons each...

[Shiro Matsumoto]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 08 January 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

The only way I would consider this reasonable is if those Endo (or FF) slots were per-determined and not floating/dynamically assigned. For the same reason those items are currently in fixed positions, to prevent specific builds that could be deemed over powered. I would also restrict builds to adding Endo and/or FF but not removing it if it already exists since it could open build options that the developers were intentionally excluding.

As the slots representing endosteel represent the larger bulk those "bones" take up, im anyway against this free-floating slot system, even for IS mechs.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Any way to improve the Clan under performers without further improving the Trinity sounds good to me.

Really when you think about it, adding Endo is really no different than a quirk pass. (Something also greatly needed for the Clans).

I support it.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 January 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

But one of the disadvantages of the currently top tier clan mechs is that most of their 'useful' crit spaces (legs, head, CT) are taken up by locked FF/ES crits - do we unlock these and allow them to be dynamic? Or are they only dynamic for the mechs that dont yet have them? That stands to possibly make the HBR BETTER than the Timber, since with ES/FF it is more optimised (325 engine is sensible size, 375 isnt really) and it has better hardpoint mounts and ECM.

I don't care those small differences do not make such a big impact.
and honestly, i would prefer the TBR over the HBR all days because the TBR has the better hardpoint distribution. HBR ahs that one side asa weakness, because you cna destroy it and make the most of the mechs weapons be gone. HBR also has the lower total armor. I don't think the HBR outclasses the TBR if they could totally change and swap everything.

and funfact

http://i.imgur.com/QcLSuf8.jpg

the TBR's torso mount points are even a tiny bit above the lower 2 of the HBR's

[kapusta11]

Lily from animove, on 09 January 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

what?

IS Ac's have PPFLD, and no crappy stream
IS lasers burn shorter an are more heat efficient., they also have a faster firecycle becaue of the shorter beamduration.
IS LRM's fire in volleys, making them hit more missiles by decreasing chance to hide and ams to shoot down missiles.
They are not all straight up better, some are worse, some a different. Some a better

What?

How many ACs you can carry without XL engine? Dual AC20 are great, yes but you need to: get in range first, and then it's not 40 FLD, it's 20 with 2 accuracy "checks". What's your accuracy? 64-67%? And that doesn't include whether you hit desired component or not. ISUAC5s are great as well but those are quite unreliable and are more demanding accuracy wise. Clan AC suck, with that I can agree, they can use some serious projectile speed increase but we need to balance them outside of specific chassis and for that we need to release the lock on fixed equipment.

Straight up lighter Gauss with no cons whatsoever? Just weight for Night Gyr or any other dual gauss capable heavy with Clan XL and CASEed armor.

Clan lasers have better range and higher damage/weight ratio, burn duration doesn't matter much when you fire against slow IS heavies and assaults. Higher exposure time you say? Not that IS has higher alphas. Again, faster burn duration? 0.15 sec in case of MLs and 0.25 in case of MPLs? Sorry but all the benefits make up for all (single minor) the disadvantages tenfold.

LRMs are a joke in general

Clan SRMs weight twice as less, but they are a joke as well because of spread IMO

Edited by kapusta11, 09 January 2015 - 05:03 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 09 January 2015 - 04:37 AM, said:

I don't care those small differences do not make such a big impact.
and honestly, i would prefer the TBR over the HBR all days because the TBR has the better hardpoint distribution. HBR ahs that one side asa weakness, because you cna destroy it and make the most of the mechs weapons be gone. HBR also has the lower total armor. I don't think the HBR outclasses the TBR if they could totally change and swap everything.

and funfact

http://i.imgur.com/QcLSuf8.jpg

the TBR's torso mount points are even a tiny bit above the lower 2 of the HBR's

The Hellbringers cockpit is far higher on the mech, and its hardpoints are also closer to the top of the mech and THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS. distance from the ground is completely not relevant as you can simply stand in a different place. all that matters is the percentage of the mech you need to expose to fire, and the HBR wins hands down in that regard. (this is why the BNC-3M is such an amazing mech even though its quirks arent huge, its got INCREDIBLE hardpoint placement)

The TBR would have the advantage of better hitboxes and JJs (Hoverjets on a 75 tonner..) VS far better peeking ability and ECM.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 09 January 2015 - 04:52 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

kapusta11, on 09 January 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

What?

How many ACs you can carry without XL engine? Dual AC20 are great, yes but you need to: get in range first, and then it's not 40 FLD, it's 20 with 2 accuracy "cheks". What's your accuracy? 64-67? And that doesn't include whether you hit desired component or not. ISUAC5s are great as well but those are quite unreliable and are more demanding accuracy wise. Clan AC suck, with that I can agree, they can use some serious projectile speed increase but we need to balance them outside of specific chassis and for that we need to release the lock on fixed equipment.

Straight up lighter Gauss with no cons whatsoever? Just weight for Night Gyr or any other dual gauss capable heavy with Clan XL and CASEed armor.

Clan lasers have better range and higher damage/weight ratio, burn duration doesn't matter much when you fire against slow IS heavies and assaults. Higher exposure time you say? Not that IS has higher alphas. Again, faster burn duration? 0.15 sec in case of MLs and 0.25 in case of MPLs? Sorry but all the benefits make up for all (single minor) the disadvantages tenfold.

LRMs are a joke in general

Clan SRMs weight twice as less, but they are a joke as well because of spread IMO

Why are you ignoring by far the biggest advantage of IS energy weapons? They have way better damage per heat (and the burn duration is a much bigger thing than you give it credit for)

IS LPL: 1.57 Dmg/Heat
C-LPL: 1.3 Dmg/Heat

IS LL: 1.29 Dmg/Heat
IS ERLL: 1.13 Dmg/Heat
C-ERLL: 1.10 Dmg/Heat (this one is close, but IS have the option of standard LL, clan dont)

IS ML: 1.25 Dmg/Heat
C-ERML: 1.17 Dmg/Heat

IS MPL: 1.50 Dmg/Heat
C-MPL: 1.33 Dmg/Heat

And that is before taking into account that any IS mech using energy weapons will have AT LEAST -10% heat generation (or the pilot picked the wrong mech for the job)

Clan weapons have the SITUATIONAL advantage of range (it means nothing if both parties are in range, which for the bigger lasers is 95% of engagements)
Heat efficiency is an advantage ALL of the time.

HOWEVER: I agree that, overall, clan weapons (barring ACs) are better than IS at the moment, but only slightly and its balanced by the locked build choices. If you take those build choices away you force the creation of the silly situation where clan mechs would rather be using IS weapons (which is already the case with ACs)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 09 January 2015 - 05:11 AM.

[Lily from animove]

kapusta11, on 09 January 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

What?

How many ACs you can carry without XL engine? Dual AC20 are great, yes but you need to: get in range first, and then it's not 40 FLD, it's 20 with 2 accuracy "checks". What's your accuracy? 64-67%? And that doesn't include whether you hit desired component or not. ISUAC5s are great as well but those are quite unreliable and are more demanding accuracy wise. Clan AC suck, with that I can agree, they can use some serious projectile speed increase but we need to balance them outside of specific chassis and for that we need to release the lock on fixed equipment.

Straight up lighter Gauss with no cons whatsoever? Just weight for Night Gyr or any other dual gauss capable heavy with Clan XL and CASEed armor.

Clan lasers have better range and higher damage/weight ratio, burn duration doesn't matter much when you fire against slow IS heavies and assaults. Higher exposure time you say? Not that IS has higher alphas. Again, faster burn duration? 0.15 sec in case of MLs and 0.25 in case of MPLs? Sorry but all the benefits make up for all (single minor) the disadvantages tenfold.

LRMs are a joke in general

Clan SRMs weight twice as less, but they are a joke as well because of spread IMO

IS ballistics are PPFLD they will nearly always hit the desired location, clans nearly never becase a mech moving and twisting will spread soem of the bulletstream. my accuracy is 75%, but of cours eif soemones accuracy is low, he is better with using CUACs because then the chance to waste the entire dmg is lower. But if youc na aim, the clan UAC's are poop.

Widowmaker1981, on 09 January 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

Why are you ignoring by far the biggest advantage of IS energy weapons? They have way better damage per heat (and the burn duration is a much bigger thing than you give it credit for)

IS LPL: 1.57 Dmg/Heat
C-LPL: 1.3 Dmg/Heat

IS LL: 1.29 Dmg/Heat
IS ERLL: 1.13 Dmg/Heat
C-ERLL: 1.10 Dmg/Heat (this one is close, but IS have the option of standard LL, clan dont)

IS ML: 1.25 Dmg/Heat
C-ERML: 1.17 Dmg/Heat

IS MPL: 1.50 Dmg/Heat
C-MPL: 1.33 Dmg/Heat

And that is before taking into account that any IS mech using energy weapons will have AT LEAST -10% heat generation (or the pilot picked the wrong mech for the job)

Clan weapons have the SITUATIONAL advantage of range (it means nothing if both parties are in range, which for the bigger lasers is 95% of engagements)
Heat efficiency is an advantage ALL of the time.

I guess heatefficiency is lostech science amongst the mechwarrior academy of the inner sphere.

[Alek Ituin]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

I own all the Mediums. Only ones I don't wreck face in are cicadas.....but I see enough other people do just fine. But put me in a Centy, Hunch or SHD? I am going to kill a lot of people.

That's the spirit right there! It's nice to know there's someone else who can appreciate good mediums. I own quite a few mediums as well, but I need to expand my collection to the Vindies...

People just don't appreciate the classics anymore though. It's all about the shiniest, newest Mechs, but people forget how brutal those classic chassis are. Contrary to popular opinion, Cents are still top of the line mediums that can hold their own, and Hunchies are just plain terrifying now. I've seen (and done it myself) IS Mediums hold their own against Clanners that had 20 tons or more on them.

[Joseph Mallan]

I am against it because that is going against the whole premise of what an OmniMech was designed to do. And OmniMech is set up so a command can swap out damaged equipment quickly and get the vehicle back in the field fast.

It is a military decision for a Military Vehicle. Sometimes you HAVE to stop thinking like a civilian when you want to play a game of war!

Clan Warriors are not supposed to be known for free thinking unless they are from Clan Wolf.

[Vanguard836]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 January 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:

Im in 2 minds about this. The only already T1 mech it would help at all is the Direwolf and tbh after considering it i dont think it would help it a lot.. it already has plenty of tonnage so only a very few builds would benefit..

But how do you propose it works exactly? Should it be dynamic, like IS mechs or should PGI hardlock the slots in advance? Should mechs such as the Warhawk and Summoner be able to remove Ferro Fibrous and install Endo, or just add Endo? What about the Timber and Stormcrow, can they remove FF if they want more crit space?

I do think as well its possible it might make the Hellbringer and Maddog very, very, very good (especially the Hellbringer if the crit slots are dynamic, since you could force them all into that right arm which no one uses), so there is that to consider as well.

I beleive we were talking about allowing mechs that do not have endo or ff as part of the base chassis to be allowed to put it on, no question of allowing the removal of those upgrades on mechs that come with it as part of the base build as appart from saving a probable headache redesign of the current omnipod system it also keeps those mechs as good as they are, they don't need any help IMO unlike say the summoner and/or gargoyle.

Hope that helps you.

[Kuritaclan]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 January 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

The TBR would have the advantage of better hitboxes and JJs (Hoverjets on a 75 tonner..) VS far better peeking ability and ECM.

Lets just say they would become pretty equal i would guess. Since stats wise beside of arm yaw they are equal in their agility and speed. In higer Elo JJ would be better for TBR and lesser expose for HBR. In lower Elo ECM is the advantage. So complains over op HBR will rise soon™. - I think this mech should have fixed es/ff slots. The question is if you wanna block ac20/lbx20 in the side torso and or ct/legs used for DHS. because those are the only things HBRs could get hurt with fixed es/ff.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 January 2015 - 05:39 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

TL;DR - Endo as an option, with fixed criticals per chassis, would make a lot of lower tier Clan Mechs more competitive, without needing freak level quirks. And at the same time, literally doesn't benefit any of the "Rich" high tier Omnis, because the ones that CAN use it, already have it anyhow.

*This message was brought to you by the Foundation for Better Mech Balance, and the Urbanmech Union of the Lyran Commonwealth.

Sorry Bishop i cant agree. I think the size of the mech, since that defines hit box area should be accounted for during mech design specifically for effective armor protection and critical space.... why does the atlas have exactly the same amount of space as the commando...because its a TT game from the 80's. why does the raven have 2 crit slots in its legs but the atlas also has the same 2 crit spaces.... same reason. however compare the targeting difficulty...raven wins at all speeds. even stationary its harder to hit at extreme range.

Artistic interpretation combined with non uniform mech scaling and creation rules = fundamental problem with game design. This game is lacking systems that account for quantifiable differences that materialise when you port a TT to a FPS. Its fundamental why TTK is out of whack across all tonnages. The average life span of an atlas/diashi is padded by how long it takes to get into combat. Hypothetically if the average life span of an atlas is 6 minutes.... its really 2 since it took 4 to cross the map. where as the raven enters combat within 60 seconds.

TL;DR - Fix the TT port to FPS first and see what happens

Edited by Tombstoner, 09 January 2015 - 05:37 AM.