653 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

@pretator knight and tombstoner

Using ES or FF on Mech should lead to an Advantage this is the Purpose of something overcoming the standard - giving it a drawback like speed reduce mentioned by tombstoner is pointless. To use the is light argument fitting in ES and FF gives you the opportunity to use a biger engine what up your speed. If you now reduce the speed for using ES/FF where is the point of using it, cause you may be evenly fast or even slower as if you didn't had equiped it instead of Standards. Technologie is supposed to make something better. Giving it drawback by Quirks would be redicoulus. In this game it would redecuce the spread between those mechs which can use it and they don't to bring those down with the better technology to a lvl others without it stands. This is like lets inventing sports cars to make via quirks as fast as normal cars. Yes it would make cars equal, but hell why ever thinking of buying a sportscar if it is expensiv and has no value.

I rather would see bring the rest of the pack up to those who have it by manufacture on board, than setting all back to the bottom line. Cause in last case it would be better if it does not exist at all, since there is no point to use it if you are as worse as all who don't use it.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 January 2015 - 09:37 AM.

[DONTOR]

Well thought out Bishop, and I agree, I agree with anything that furthers customization

[LordBraxton]

If they don't want to break canon with endo\ferro, I'd love to see some hardcore JJ quirks on the summoner\nova. They are both Falcon mechs, and I classically think of them as high speed jumpers. The nova needs speed quirks like the summoner, and both need JJ quirks. The summoner prime quirks need 25% cooldown on each arm as well. 10% doesn't do much.

Edited by LordBraxton, 09 January 2015 - 10:49 AM.

[Willard Phule]

The way I understood it, PGI is "keeping to canon" with regard to fixed items in Omnimechs, which I can understand....sort of.

Customization of IS Battlemechs is possible but is supposed to be expensive and extremely time consuming. Right now, we get free modification of IS Battlemechs (as long as you already own the item) that happens instantaneously.

And that's sort of the point behind why Omnis are supposed to be superior to Battlemechs. The ability to repair, rearm and customize in a fraction of the time the IS can with their Battlemechs. We don't use that kind of mechanic here.

Seems to me that the middle ground here is to either A ) start allowing customization of Omnimechs beyond canon (like is already being done with IS Battlemechs) or B ) start charging cbills for customization of IS Battlemechs.

Personally, I vote for "A." Clan Astechs are supposed to be better than IS as well...one would think that if the IS can rip a STD300 out of an Atlas and replace it with an XL300 in mere moments, the Clans could do it better.

[0bsidion]

While I could get behind unlocking ES/FF, I'm leery of the locked crits. For example, the hardpoint starved summoner can only mount the LBX20 in its arms and it can barely fit the UAC/20 in its ST. So what happens if any of those locked crits land in both of those places? No more torso mounted UAC/20s and no more LBX20s at all. Arms and torsos are the only places those crits can go, as the legs are already locked with JJs. Basically the builds that locked ES/FF crits will encourage are the SRM and laser vomit builds because they're very light on crit space/tonnage requirements.

[Tombstoner]

Kuritaclan, on 09 January 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

@pretator knight and tombstoner

Using ES or FF on Mech should lead to an Advantage this is the Purpose of something overcoming the standard - giving it a drawback like speed reduce mentioned by tombstoner is pointless. To use the is light argument fitting in ES and FF gives you the opportunity to use a biger engine what up your speed. If you now reduce the speed for using ES/FF where is the point of using it, cause you may be evenly fast or even slower as if you didn't had equiped it instead of Standards. Technologie is supposed to make something better. Giving it drawback by Quirks would be redicoulus. In this game it would redecuce the spread between those mechs which can use it and they don't to bring those down with the better technology to a lvl others without it stands. This is like lets inventing sports cars to make via quirks as fast as normal cars. Yes it would make cars equal, but hell why ever thinking of buying a sportscar if it is expensiv and has no value.

I rather would see bring the rest of the pack up to those who have it by manufacture on board, than setting all back to the bottom line. Cause in last case it would be better if it does not exist at all, since there is no point to use it if you are as worse as all who don't use it.

Then give all non endo using mechs a speed perk so endo is about loosing speed for increased free tonnage. Then rescale speed over all to fit within the 150 kph cap.

The topic comes down to whats best for the game. change all clan mechs arbitrarily or get creative and find a MWO suitable reason to justify not taking endo or fero. A speed perk is reasonable trade for an increase in firepower.

[Kuritaclan]

Tombstoner, on 09 January 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

Then give all non endo using mechs a speed perk so endo is about loosing speed for increased free tonnage. Then rescale speed over all to fit within the 150 kph cap.

The topic comes down to whats best for the game. change all clan mechs arbitrarily or get creative and find a MWO suitable reason to justify not taking endo or fero. A speed perk is reasonable trade for an increase in firepower.

I feel you don't see your circle problem within. While light mechs are the easy way to show the problem of a speed drawback for es/ff - higher weighted chassis would have this problem too. Since they can't use the ff/es tonnage advantage for more firepower, because if they would use es/ff they need a higher rated engine or are in a speedclass of 10 or 15t heavyer mechs. In the End ES and FF would make all Mechs across the board slower and reduce indirectly the surviveablity. Or they would have the same speed like before but used 7/14 crits for it, and have no gain in firepower - this is just sensless to do so.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 09 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

The way I understood it, PGI is "keeping to canon" with regard to fixed items in Omnimechs, which I can understand....sort of.

Customization of IS Battlemechs is possible but is supposed to be expensive and extremely time consuming. Right now, we get free modification of IS Battlemechs (as long as you already own the item) that happens instantaneously.

But can just as easily be waved cause the Mods and Time on TT are mutable. I Can change the Internal structure on a mech with a few Key/Pen strokes and just say the unit have no engagements till after the Upgrade is complete. Time to complete is meaningless unless you are tracking time at the table.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

But can just as easily be waved cause the Mods and Time on TT are mutable. I Can change the Internal structure on a mech with a few Key/Pen strokes and just say the unit have no engagements till after the Upgrade is complete. Time to complete is meaningless unless you are tracking time at the table.

True enough, however, the same thing is possible with Omnis as well. There are any number of examples in the novels....certain Chassis being retrofitted with something that is non-standard because it's for a trial and they've got plenty of time to prepare.

It's six of one, half a dozen of another. They never should have locked out the internals on the Omnis in the first place..since they place so much stock in their pretend economy. The price of Clan XL engines is ridiculous...the same as Clan technology. Their decision to keep the two technologies separate forced them to create two separate economies...one driven by play and pretend currency, the other by purchasing another form of pretend currency with real money.

And, since at this point they seem to think both technologies have been "equalized" by TTK vs PPFLD, what's the point in keeping them separated?

PGI hasn't changed, man, they've just learned a new line.

Edited by Willard Phule, 09 January 2015 - 01:12 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Kuritaclan, on 09 January 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

I feel you don't see your circle problem within. While light mechs are the easy way to show the problem of a speed drawback for es/ff - higher weighted chassis would have this problem too. Since they can't use the ff/es tonnage advantage for more firepower, because if they would use es/ff they need a higher rated engine or are in a speedclass of 10 or 15t heavyer mechs. In the End ES and FF would make all Mechs across the board slower and indirectly the surviveablity. Or they would have the same speed like before but used 7/14 crits for it, and have no gain in firepower - this is just sensless to do so.

A few things to consider - First is the replacement/removal of the space taken by endo/ fero. in favor of loosing the speed buffs. Something like -7.5%/-7.5% top speed or something not really noticeable. Tonnage savings range from 1-5 tones. How much does that really impact each mech over all? hardly game breaking but is significant to bias clan mech usage.

Space for weight saving made sense for TT because mech sizes where relatively similar. The commando and atlas both followed partial cover rules equally...... not so for MWO. Size affect targeting success. smaller mechs should have less space. conversely larger mechs should have more. hence the need for out of the box solutions for TT flavor text based mech designs.

yes, you can run into a trap of trading the speed buff thats given for free in favor of 50% less internal tonnage that in turn you reapply to a larger engine for no net benefit. Yes you could do that... its an option.... but why? It makes no sence. then dont do it. It does however stop you from double dipping. The point of endo/fero is to free up tonnage for more stuff. yes speed could be one of them. so you don't take it for more speed. you take it for more HS or more weapons, JJ, ECM.

I think this solution works for all mechs. As it is space is the same for all mechs irregardless of tonnage. In TT that makes sence, but MWO needs something to act as a suitable replacement and thats mech speed. you trade that buff for more customization / stuff.

Who knows maybe a speed buff on non endo/fero using mechs would increase TTK and over all fun factor.

[Kuritaclan]

Tombstoner, on 09 January 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

yes, you can run into a trap of trading the speed buff thats given for free in favor of 50% less internal tonnage that in turn you reapply to a larger engine for no net benefit. Yes you could do that... its an option.... but why? It makes no sence. then dont do it. It does however stop you from double dipping. The point of endo/fero is to free up tonnage for more stuff. yes speed could be one of them. so you don't take it for more speed. you take it for more HS or more weapons, JJ, ECM.

you suggest a double penality. First you have the crit slots eaten up and you get double dipped by speed penality. - FF/ES have actually a tradeoff to equip it it doesnt need more disadvantage to use it, only to make all mechs worse so that they are equal to mechs do not having es/ff at manufacturing. And this doesn't make it worth to equip. ES and FF have a disadvantage when used. Well it is biger on IS mechs than on Clan mechs. But heck those are clan mechs and are supposed to do better.

I do not will speak it out, but if you now nerf those into oblivision, the counter Mechs of IS needs the oblivion nerfs too, and the second wave Mechs like MadCat MKII also. I only se a sprial of Nerfs in the future. And this because in the timeframe we are in Clanmechs are better than all IS can show at the battle field.

I think PGI do it right to quirk the is mechs to the clan level and don't go the other way around.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 January 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[SweetJackal]

As much as some Clanner mechs have gotten the short end of the stick I am not keen on unlocking Endo as an option for some clan mechs only.

Revisiting the stock builds to change FF to Endo, following a general rule that Endo is put on mechs before FF is something that could work but could also tip things for Stock Mech battles if they become a thing in the future.

Revisiting the Clan Mech Construction rules is another angle to take but that has repercussions that run much deeper and could tip the balance between IS and Clans to further extremes.

Another thing that could be done would be to make FF actually useful independent from Endo. That is have FF not just change the amount of armor points per ton but also raise the Armor Point Cap by the same amount. Make the Armor Cap measured in Tons and not Points.

I would be for unlocking Endo and FF on all mechs before I would be in favor of unlocking them just for some 'under privileged' mechs. There are issues that are causing these mechs to be so much weaker and addressing those issues is the way I would rather go instead of creating special construction rule exceptions.

[Lily from animove]

Kuritaclan, on 09 January 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

you suggest a double penality. First you have the crit slots eaten up and you get double dipped by speed penality. - FF/ES have actually a tradeoff to equip it it doesnt need more disadvantage to use it, only to make all mechs worse so that they are equal to mechs do not having es/ff at manufacturing. And this doesn't make it worth to equip. ES and FF have a disadvantage when used. Well it is biger on IS mechs than on Clan mechs. But heck those are clan mechs and are supposed to do better.

I do not will speak it out, but if you now nerf those into oblivision, the counter Mechs of IS needs the oblivion nerfs too, and the second wave Mechs like MadCat MKII also. I only se a sprial of Nerfs in the future. And this because in the timeframe we are in Clanmechs are better than all IS can show at the battle field.

I think PGI do it right to quirk the is mechs to the clan level and don't go the other way around.

but thats the issue there is no clanlevel, WHen this iss aid, people usually speak of DWF, TBR and SCR, - DWF in CW.
but in the end, quirk any mech on clan level of a Nova, and then wow, IS hopeless lost xD

Ther eis no clanlevel, ther is that giant gap between clanmechs themselves. And after the IS quirkening the number of clanmechs used is very low in their variety.

[Willard Phule]

Lily from animove, on 09 January 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

but thats the issue there is no clanlevel, WHen this iss aid, people usually speak of DWF, TBR and SCR, - DWF in CW.
but in the end, quirk any mech on clan level of a Nova, and then wow, IS hopeless lost xD

Ther eis no clanlevel, ther is that giant gap between clanmechs themselves. And after the IS quirkening the number of clanmechs used is very low in their variety.

Not to mention inherent construction flaws. If an engine allows X heasinks, that means it has that many SOCKETS to plug heatsinks into. Hence the whole Single/Double conversion. We've got Omnis that have empty slots we can't plug DHS into. Talk about intentionally trying to gimp anything Clan.

Bad enough that we have the absolute WORST hardpoint distribution, period. And after Paul went after us with the Ghost Heat spraycan, some of our stock builds are completely unplayable. Worse yet, they decided to make THOSE mechs the "trials."

It is what it is. We've already seen they can't handle CW properly. Who's bright idea was it to allow us to attack each other within the corridors? I'll blame the Smoke Jaguars, since they're supposed to have the Ilkhan at the moment.

[Kuritaclan]

Lily from animove, on 09 January 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

but thats the issue there is no clanlevel, WHen this iss aid, people usually speak of DWF, TBR and SCR, - DWF in CW.
but in the end, quirk any mech on clan level of a Nova, and then wow, IS hopeless lost xD

Ther eis no clanlevel, ther is that giant gap between clanmechs themselves. And after the IS quirkening the number of clanmechs used is very low in their variety.

You know what i meant with clan lvl. Anything what is in between tbr scr dire hbr. Or so. At least not Nova Lvl.

[Bishop Steiner]

Praetor Knight, on 09 January 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

The question I have, are the mechs we are piloting being made from scratch in some factory, or are we dealing with an existing mech getting tweaked after the fact? Because I understand that it was more common to see a new mech get Endo than an old mech to get that particular refit. With Ferro being the more common refit to older mechs.

Endo is supposed to be rare after all, right? So, if mechs did not come Stock with Endo out of the factory, I'd be okay if mechs wouldn't be able to mount it.

And I have plenty of my mechs modded with Endo, so this would certainly affect me.

Endo really is not rare. It is a bit now, for the IS; because they only recently re-learned how to make it. For the Clans? Not an issue. It's just much more expensive because it requires zero gravity processing facilities to form it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Willard Phule, on 09 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

The way I understood it, PGI is "keeping to canon" with regard to fixed items in Omnimechs, which I can understand....sort of.

Customization of IS Battlemechs is possible but is supposed to be expensive and extremely time consuming. Right now, we get free modification of IS Battlemechs (as long as you already own the item) that happens instantaneously.

And that's sort of the point behind why Omnis are supposed to be superior to Battlemechs. The ability to repair, rearm and customize in a fraction of the time the IS can with their Battlemechs. We don't use that kind of mechanic here.

Seems to me that the middle ground here is to either A ) start allowing customization of Omnimechs beyond canon (like is already being done with IS Battlemechs) or B ) start charging cbills for customization of IS Battlemechs.

Personally, I vote for "A." Clan Astechs are supposed to be better than IS as well...one would think that if the IS can rip a STD300 out of an Atlas and replace it with an XL300 in mere moments, the Clans could do it better.

if they were keeping to canon, you could not modify your armor amounts, either.

[Bishop Steiner]

well, looks like I inspired some other posts. curious to see where the discussions lead.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 January 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

Endo really is not rare. It is a bit now, for the IS; because they only recently re-learned how to make it. For the Clans? Not an issue. It's just much more expensive because it requires zero gravity processing facilities to form it.

I was thinking about only on the IS side since it was reintroduced after 3035 and have read in different places that only a few IS facilities even produced Endo Steel.

I really wasn't thinking about the Clans when posting earlier, since the upgrades are currently locked on them anyway. I should have been more clear on that point.

And I had figured that Clans would have more active faciilties available than IS had before the Clans start to invade in 3049, with most of those safe in Clan space.

[Bishop Steiner]

Praetor Knight, on 09 January 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

I was thinking about only on the IS side since it was reintroduced after 3035 and have read in different places that only a few IS facilities even produced Endo Steel.

I really wasn't thinking about the Clans when posting earlier, since the upgrades are currently locked on them anyway. I should have been more clear on that point.

And I had figured that Clans would have more active faciilties available than IS had before the Clans start to invade in 3049, with most of those safe in Clan space.

fair nuff, I mighta added context.