653 replies to this topic

[Molossian Dog]

Funny how it is with powercreeps. They only go one way, never the other.

Just imagine if some young, unsuspecting, naive neckbeard came strolling into this thread and proposed that instead of elevating each and every clan chassis to the Trinity Level rather take those a peg down or two and work from there. Let´s say by taking Endo away from them. (DW special case)

Oh my. Can you imagine the reactions? Tar and feathers would be nothing in comparison.

---------------------

Since I know my dear fellow forum users:
No, I am not seriously suggesting anything. Ever since PGI spoiled the clammerz with the power level they had for about half a year after "release" going back is out of the question. Even trying it would lead to a mass exodus, heartbreak, probably some suicide attempts and this game would end up dead. No, we are condemned to go down this road until the very end.
Consider this a comment. Not an argument.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 27 March 2015 - 06:30 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 27 March 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

Yup. Because really, until Clan AC's (be they AC, UAC, or LBX-AC) don't suck, the only Clan weapon that isn't currently used a lot that would be is Gauss. LRM's either already are used (low to mid level play) or won't be regardless (higher level play), SRM's already are used. People don't avoid clan AC's because they're too big or heavy, they avoid them because they're garbage.

Eh, LB-X could be better, but at least they are in the same boat on both tech bases. UACs are where the discrepancy is, though in fairness, I wish IS UACs were burst fire too, as they will have to do that when the big bore UACs come, anyhow.
I think they do need a shorter bursts, higher projectile speed on those burst fire guns, though as their current state is pretty week.

But I use the LB-10X pretty successfully still, and the LB-5X is actually pretty wicked, IMO. But I'd be all for C-ACs to be single shot, but maybe give them shorter range, lighter damage than their IS counterpart as a tradeoff worth the weight saving, like say a C-AC10 has a range of 400(800) meters and 8.5 dmg, or something, you know?

[Mcgral18]

Molossian Dog, on 27 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Funny how it is with powercreeps. They only go one way, never the other.

Just imagine if some young, unsuspecting, naive neckbeard came strolling into this thread and proposed that instead of elevating each and every clan chassis to the Trinity Level rather take those a peg down or two and work from there. Let´s say by taking Endo away from them. (DW special case)

Oh my. Can you imagine the reactions? Tar and feathers would be nothing in comparison.

---------------------

Since I know my dear fellow forum users:
No, I am not seriously suggesting anything. Ever since PGI spoiled the clammerz with the power level they had for about half a year after "release" going back is out of the question. Even trying it would lead to a mass exodus, heartbreak, probably some suicide attempts and this game would end up dead. No, we are condemned to go down this road until the very end.
Consider this a comment. Not an argument.

OR, instead of breaking every stock build...they could reduce twist angle.


That's a pretty big nerf, if taken too far. Perhaps PGI could find it in their code to reduce, or even eliminate, damage transfer reduction on the TimberWolf and StormCrow.

Suddenly, they take full instead of 40% damage. Over twice as much.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 27 March 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

It is a bad system, but currently clans only have a couple statistically better weapons. Most of their weapons end up on par or worse, just really the LPL and ERML that are flat out superior. More, if you ignore quirks, but all IS mechs have quirks.

I'll agree that the quirk system band-**** way too much, and other fixes should have happened, but they're a fact now; that ship has sailed.

disagree with that. Remember, being lighter and smaller, even with identical stats, makes it better still.

C-LB-10X, C-ERPPC, G-Gauss, C-SRM2/4/6, NARC and C-SSR2 are direct upgrades to the IS version.

One could argue merits of heat vs burntime, range etc, but the C-ERMlaser, LPL and ERSL are IMO better than the IS versions. C-MPL is a tradeoff..burn time is not hugely longer, damage is better..but dat heat........

LRMs are also debatable, but the nature of LRMs make sit hard to call, period...but they are half the weight.

Molossian Dog, on 27 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Funny how it is with powercreeps. They only go one way, never the other.

Just imagine if some young, unsuspecting, naive neckbeard came strolling into this thread and proposed that instead of elevating each and every clan chassis to the Trinity Level rather take those a peg down or two and work from there. Let´s say by taking Endo away from them. (DW special case)

Oh my. Can you imagine the reactions? Tar and feathers would be nothing in comparison.

maybe because those who think it thru to the end also realize it breaks the builds of those mechs? And thus one of the tenants of the basic mech lab and design from inception and opens up a can of worms of "why hold anything to a canon type baseline"?

And that many of us are honest enough to realize that most of the non trinity actually underperform their IS counterparts, and that that basic differential of Endo-Non Endo makes establishing a true baseline in clan tech nigh impossible, and thus, really blankets what needs global nerfs or buffs.

But hey, aside from that, great idea.

[Molossian Dog]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

OR, instead of breaking every stock build...

You mean to imply stock builds are not broken at the moment?

[Wintersdark]

Molossian Dog, on 27 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Funny how it is with powercreeps. They only go one way, never the other.

Just imagine if some young, unsuspecting, naive neckbeard came strolling into this thread and proposed that instead of elevating each and every clan chassis to the Trinity Level rather take those a peg down or two and work from there. Let´s say by taking Endo away from them. (DW special case)

Oh my. Can you imagine the reactions? Tar and feathers would be nothing in comparison.

---------------------

Since I know my dear fellow forum users:
No, I am not seriously suggesting anything. Ever since PGI spoiled the clammerz with the power level they had for about half a year after "release" going back is out of the question. Even trying it would lead to a mass exodus, heartbreak, probably some suicide attempts and this game would end up dead. No, we are condemned to go down this road until the very end.
Consider this a comment. Not an argument.

Honestly, I'm not nor have I ever been opposed to nerfing the Big Bad Clan Mechs. Not once. The Timberwolf and Stormcrow in particular are just too good, and that causes most of the problems we have (That is: All the woe and tears about "ALL CLAN MECHS ARE WAY TOO GOOD"). The trick is not nerfing the crappy clan mechs at the same time, which unfortunately is what most people's ignorant ill-thought suggestions tend to entail.

Since day one, and that is day one of the initial Clan PTR test, I've expected the Stormcrow and Timberwolf to eat the nerf bat hard. I still do. I have both, of course, though I only play them when I'm playing more seriously competitive games. Mostly, because I want to be as competitive as I can with the poorer mechs now, so when they get buffed (eventually, it'll happen) I'll be an unstoppable god of destruction for a while.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

OR, instead of breaking every stock build...they could reduce twist angle.


That's a pretty big nerf, if taken too far. Perhaps PGI could find it in their code to reduce, or even eliminate, damage transfer reduction on the TimberWolf and StormCrow.

Suddenly, they take full instead of 40% damage. Over twice as much.

Yeah, how long have I been recommending that fix on the TBR and such? But of course the Bads in Clan Clothing come out in force to protest about how those mechs are not remotely OP.....

Molossian Dog, on 27 March 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

You mean to imply stock builds are not broken at the moment?

Yes, sidestep what is actually said, as usual.

Since you know... um, like that tonnage lost from not having endo has to come from IDK..somewhere on those mechs?

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

disagree with that. Remember, being lighter and smaller, even with identical stats, makes it better still.

C-LB-10X, C-ERPPC, G-Gauss, C-SRM2/4/6, NARC and C-SSR2 are direct upgrades to the IS version.

None have identical stats. I posted the chart elsewhere a few times, perhaps I should just make a thread with it at some point.

C-ERPPC is better than ERPPC on paper, but irrelevantly so because both are garbage weapons without quirks. Note that 70 IS mechs have ERPPC's that outrange CERPPC's, and a hell of a lot have ERPPC's that are cooler, too.

CLB10X is also superior, but the IS LBX10 is also a bad weapon. Being better at being bad isn't a big deal. I know you like the LBX10, and I won't go into the discussion here - it's been had enough elsewhere.

Quote

One could argue merits of heat vs burntime, range etc, but the C-ERMlaser, LPL and ERSL are IMO better than the IS versions. C-MPL is a tradeoff..burn time is not hugely longer, damage is better..but dat heat........

Yeah, I'd add the ERSL as well to the better clan laser thing, but it's much less significant than the cERML and LPL. Those two are the significant ones.

Gauss, though? How many IS mechs that actually use Gauss do so with the same stats that Clan Gauss has? A hell of a lot do it with way better stats.

I can put up a list if you really want, but there are dozens of IS mechs sporting gauss rifles that are substantially improved over the Clan Gauss.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 27 March 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

None have identical stats. I posted the chart elsewhere a few times, perhaps I should just make a thread with it at some point.

C-ERPPC is better than ERPPC on paper, but irrelevantly so because both are garbage weapons without quirks. Note that 70 IS mechs have ERPPC's that outrange CERPPC's, and a hell of a lot have ERPPC's that are cooler, too.

CLB10X is also superior, but the IS LBX10 is also a bad weapon. Being better at being bad isn't a big deal. I know you like the LBX10, and I won't go into the discussion here - it's been had enough elsewhere.

Yeah, I'd add the ERSL as well to the better clan laser thing, but it's much less significant than the cERML and LPL. Those two are the significant ones.

Gauss, though? How many IS mechs that actually use Gauss do so with the same stats that Clan Gauss has? A hell of a lot do it with way better stats.

I can put up a list if you really want, but there are dozens of IS mechs sporting gauss rifles that are substantially improved over the Clan Gauss.

actually, I'm looking at smurfies now, and all the ones I listed are showing identical (to the best I can tell) damage, range, heat, ammo, cooldown, etc. Only difference is IS weigh more. (Well, and Clan Narc has better range)
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Don't fall into the same trap that Khobai and them have. You can't compare them after quirks. But the weapon to weapon. Once quirks come into it(especially since they are constantly changing and being added to clans, too, though..very poorly so far), it's a different aspect of balance, and Quirks and balance are an entirely different subject that cannot be accurately addressed until the tech bases, chassis and weapons have been given a decent baseline.

Them, and only then can quirks be realistically looked into the balance pool.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 March 2015 - 06:57 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

actually, I'm looking at smurfies now, and all the ones I listed are showing identical (to the best I can tell) damage, range, heat, ammo, cooldown, etc. Only difference is IS weigh more. (Well, and Clan Narc has better range)
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

But no IS mechs actually use those weapons at their listed stats. Quirks are a thing. Smurfy listed weapon stats are meaningless these days.

Gauss:
CDA-3C 12.5% cooldown
CDA-3M 20% cooldown
BJ-1 12.5% cooldown
BJ-1DC 12.5% cooldown
BJ-A 20% range
VND-1X 15% cooldown, 15% range
CN9-A 10% cooldown, 10% velocity
CN9-AH 10% cooldown, 10% velocity
CN9-D 20% cooldown, 10% velocity
CN9-YLW 10% cooldown, range, velocity
ENF-4R 10% cooldown
ENF-5D 10% cooldown
ENF-5P 10% cooldown, velocity
HBK-4G 12.5% cooldown, range, velocity
HBK-4H 10% cooldown, range
HBK-GI 50% Cooldown(!!!!)
TBT-7K 10% cooldown, velocity
SHD-2D 5% cooldown, 7.5% velocity
SHD-2H 7.5% cooldown, velocity
SHD-5M 5% cooldown
SHD-GD 7.5% velocity
WVR-6R 20% cooldown
DRG-1C 15% cooldown
DRG-1N 25% cooldown
DRG-5N 12.5% cooldown, 15% range, velocity
DRG-FANG 12.5% cooldown, velocity
DRG-FLAME 10% cooldown, range, velocity
QKD-IV4 20% cooldown, 10% velocity
CPLT-K2 10% range
JM6-A 20% range, 10% velocity
JM6-DD 7.5% cooldown, 7.5% range
JM6-FB 10% velocity
JM6-S 7.5% cooldown, velocity, 10% range
CTF-1X 12.5% cooldown, velocity
CTF-2X 12.5% cooldown, velocity, range
CTF-4X 12.5% cooldown, range, 10% velocity
CTF-3D 7.5% velocity
CTF-IM 7.5% cooldown
ON1-K 12.5% cooldown, range, velocity
ON1-M 20% cooldown
ON1-P 20% cooldown
ON1-V 10% cooldown
ON1-VA 12.5% cooldown, velocity
VTR-9B 7.5% velocity
VTR-9K 10% cooldown
VTR-9S 7.5% cooldown
VTR-DS 10% cooldown
ZEU-6S 12.5% cooldown, 10% range
BLR-1D 12.5% cooldown, velocity
BLR-1G 12.5% cooldown, range
BLR-1GP 12.5% cooldown, range
STK-MISERY 7.5% velocity
HGN-732 15% cooldown
HGN-733 7.5% cooldown
HGN-733C 5% cooldown, 7.5% velocity
HGN-HM 10% cooldown, 10% velocity
BNC-3E 7.5% cooldown, velocity
BNC-3S 10% cooldown
BNC-LM 10% cooldown, range
AS7-BH 10% cooldown, range
AS7-D 7.5% cooldown, velocity
AS7-D-DC 5% velocity
AS7-K 15% cooldown
AS7-RS 10% velocity
AS7-S 7.5% velocity
KGC-000 7.5% cooldown, 7.5% velocity
KGC-000B 10% velocity


Now, while a couple (not very many) just have a small velocity buff which isn't terribly important, the vast majority of IS mechs here are sporting 10+% cooldown/range etc; which are NOT insignificant.

Anyways, every single one of the mechs listed above (I ignored lights, because gauss+lights=silly) presents a Gauss rifle with flat out better stats than the cGauss.


In short, in almost every case, if you can use Gauss, your rifle is better than the Clan version.

Edited by Wintersdark, 27 March 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 27 March 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

But no IS mechs actually use those weapons at their listed stats. Quirks are a thing. Smurfy listed weapon stats are meaningless these days.

Gauss:
CDA-3C 12.5% cooldown
CDA-3M 20% cooldown
BJ-1 12.5% cooldown
BJ-1DC 12.5% cooldown
BJ-A 20% range
VND-1X 15% cooldown, 15% range
CN9-A 10% cooldown, 10% velocity
CN9-AH 10% cooldown, 10% velocity
CN9-D 20% cooldown, 10% velocity
CN9-YLW 10% cooldown, range, velocity
ENF-4R 10% cooldown
ENF-5D 10% cooldown
ENF-5P 10% cooldown, velocity
HBK-4G 12.5% cooldown, range, velocity
HBK-4H 10% cooldown, range
HBK-GI 50% Cooldown(!!!!)
TBT-7K 10% cooldown, velocity
SHD-2D 5% cooldown, 7.5% velocity
SHD-2H 7.5% cooldown, velocity
SHD-5M 5% cooldown
SHD-GD 7.5% velocity
WVR-6R 20% cooldown
DRG-1C 15% cooldown
DRG-1N 25% cooldown
DRG-5N 12.5% cooldown, 15% range, velocity
DRG-FANG 12.5% cooldown, velocity
DRG-FLAME 10% cooldown, range, velocity
QKD-IV4 20% cooldown, 10% velocity
CPLT-K2 10% range
JM6-A 20% range, 10% velocity
JM6-DD 7.5% cooldown, 7.5% range
JM6-FB 10% velocity
JM6-S 7.5% cooldown, velocity, 10% range
CTF-1X 12.5% cooldown, velocity
CTF-2X 12.5% cooldown, velocity, range
CTF-4X 12.5% cooldown, range, 10% velocity
CTF-3D 7.5% velocity
CTF-IM 7.5% cooldown
ON1-K 12.5% cooldown, range, velocity
ON1-M 20% cooldown
ON1-P 20% cooldown
ON1-V 10% cooldown
ON1-VA 12.5% cooldown, velocity
VTR-9B 7.5% velocity
VTR-9K 10% cooldown
VTR-9S 7.5% cooldown
VTR-DS 10% cooldown
ZEU-6S 12.5% cooldown, 10% range
BLR-1D 12.5% cooldown, velocity
BLR-1G 12.5% cooldown, range
BLR-1GP 12.5% cooldown, range
STK-MISERY 7.5% velocity
HGN-732 15% cooldown
HGN-733 7.5% cooldown
HGN-733C 5% cooldown, 7.5% velocity
HGN-HM 10% cooldown, 10% velocity
BNC-3E 7.5% cooldown, velocity
BNC-3S 10% cooldown
BNC-LM 10% cooldown, range
AS7-BH 10% cooldown, range
AS7-D 7.5% cooldown, velocity
AS7-D-DC 5% velocity
AS7-K 15% cooldown
AS7-RS 10% velocity
AS7-S 7.5% velocity
KGC-000 7.5% cooldown, 7.5% velocity
KGC-000B 10% velocity


Now, while a couple (not very many) just have a small velocity buff which isn't terribly important, the vast majority of IS mechs here are sporting 10+% cooldown/range etc; which are NOT insignificant.

Anyways, every single one of the mechs listed above (I ignored lights, because gauss+lights=silly) presents a Gauss rifle with flat out better stats than the cGauss.


In short, in almost every case, if you can use Gauss, your rifle is better than the Clan version.

And missing the point. You cannot start a balance baseline by comparing quirked items to unquirked.

And the baseline, unquirked clan weapons, are all superior in those cases. Fixing balance is the whole point of this thread, and getting caught up in the issues quirks add, will only obfuscate any attempts to fix that.

Fix the baseline, and hopefully, most of the ungodly quirks can be done away with entirely.

Quicksilvers Quirks as Bandaids thread is spot on with the issues there.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 March 2015 - 07:23 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

i agree its hard to compare Quirked IS-Weapons to unQuirked Clan-weapons,
but until Clan Quirks this is the best we have, so its what most will discuss,

personally even before some Quirks IS-Clan weapon Balance seems good,
each has an advantage and disadvantage, but its not right to debate that here,
this Topic is about "Endo for Omni-mechs without Endo" so lets Talk Endo,
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 27 March 2015 - 07:27 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

And missing the point. You cannot start a balance baseline by comparing quirked items to unquirked.

And the baseline, unquirked clan weapons, are all superior in those cases. Fixing balance is the whole point of this thread, and getting caught up in the issues quirks add, will only obfuscate any attempts to fix that.

Fix the baseline, and hopefully, most of the ungodly quirks can be done away with entirely.

Quicksilvers Quirks as Bandaids thread is spot on with the issues there.

As I said earlier, I agree completely that the quirk bandaid issue causes a lot of balance problems.

However, quirks are a thing. They're here. The baseline stats of weapons are totally irrelevant in the game today, all that matters is the stats of the weapon you can bring to the table. And those stats are post-quirk.

Unless some Clan mechs start getting ballistic quirks (that matter), IS mechs are bringing better, but heavier, Gauss Rifles. So no, the Clan Gauss Rifles simply aren't better in practice.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 27 March 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

As I said earlier, I agree completely that the quirk bandaid issue causes a lot of balance problems.

However, quirks are a thing. They're here. The baseline stats of weapons are totally irrelevant in the game today, all that matters is the stats of the weapon you can bring to the table. And those stats are post-quirk.

Unless some Clan mechs start getting ballistic quirks (that matter), IS mechs are bringing better, but heavier, Gauss Rifles. So no, the Clan Gauss Rifles simply aren't better in practice.

*sigh* Yes, they are here, and they are fluid, and not evenly placed and thus cannot be used as a baseline for anything, unless we are looking to further pooch balance. Because when the next quirk pass shifts things, then we set balance to a goal that moved.

Balance the Chassis.


Balance the Weapons.

THEN you can balance the quirks, not the other way around.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

*sigh* Yes, they are here, and they are fluid, and not evenly placed and thus cannot be used as a baseline for anything, unless we are looking to further pooch balance. Because when the next quirk pass shifts things, then we set balance to a goal that moved.

You're right, but that's the thing. There can't be a baseline anymore. That ship has sailed.

Quote

Balance the Chassis.

Agreed 100%

Quote

Balance the Weapons.

Agreed 100%

Quote

THEN you can balance the quirks, not the other way around.

Agreed 100%.


But... We have what we have. ES needs to be unlocked, but we're not going to see what's been done be undone: The quirks we have will change, weapon balance will change, and chassis themselves will see changes. They'll all happen essentially randomly from here on out, and there's unfortunately no way to change that.

But there's no point in saying "Well, IS Gauss is inferior to Clan Gauss" now, because there pretty much aren't any IS mechs that fire unquirked IS Gauss.

To be sure, it would have been much better to get the weapon balance and chassis balance better first... but it's done now

God knows, I'd really have rather they just increased the IS ballistic cooldown by 10% and reduced every IS mechs Ballistic Cooldown Quirk by 10%... The same applies to energy weapons, where practically every single mech with an energy hardpoint has energy quirks too. You basically cannot compare IS vs. Clan weapons anymore without considering quirks, because they are so major and pervasive. Pretty much NOTHING IS side fires weapons at their base stats.

Edited by Wintersdark, 27 March 2015 - 07:35 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 27 March 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

You're right, but that's the thing. There can't be a baseline anymore. That ship has sailed.

Agreed 100%

Agreed 100%

Agreed 100%.


But... We have what we have. ES needs to be unlocked, but we're not going to see what's been done be undone: The quirks we have will change, weapon balance will change, and chassis themselves will see changes. They'll all happen essentially randomly from here on out, and there's unfortunately no way to change that.

But there's no point in saying "Well, IS Gauss is inferior to Clan Gauss" now, because there pretty much aren't any IS mechs that fire unquirked IS Gauss.

To be sure, it would have been much better to get the weapon balance and chassis balance better first... but it's done now

and we need to stop obfuscating the point of the OP by arguing inanely over interpretations of terms, etc. I would rather leave that to Ultimatum and the like.

[Andi Nagasia]

Can we get back to talking about Endo for Omni-mechs without now?

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 27 March 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

Can we get back to talking about Endo for Omni-mechs without now?

would be my preference.

[Lightfoot]

Molossian Dog, on 27 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Funny how it is with powercreeps. They only go one way, never the other.

Just imagine if some young, unsuspecting, naive neckbeard came strolling into this thread and proposed that instead of elevating each and every clan chassis to the Trinity Level rather take those a peg down or two and work from there. Let´s say by taking Endo away from them. (DW special case)

Oh my. Can you imagine the reactions? Tar and feathers would be nothing in comparison.

---------------------

Since I know my dear fellow forum users:
No, I am not seriously suggesting anything. Ever since PGI spoiled the clammerz with the power level they had for about half a year after "release" going back is out of the question. Even trying it would lead to a mass exodus, heartbreak, probably some suicide attempts and this game would end up dead. No, we are condemned to go down this road until the very end.
Consider this a comment. Not an argument.

Not in this case. Endo and FF is just being restricted/blocked when it should not be. It just creates too much imbalance that Quirks can't address. I can accept the locked Engines because you get the value of the engine.

[Xetelian]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

would be my preference.

My hellbringer has 37? empty slots?