1126 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

operatorZ, on 22 January 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

You realize that you just named a bunch of them....? Want me to name some more? Ok easy....wubshee...timber laser vomit....Firestarter small laser....TDR ppc or laser.... Streak crow...srm crow...laser crow....the list goes on....it's called the meta....have you heard of it?

..If you really want in on this conversation you would have to read where it started.....I'm not going to explain it all again.

What is it exactly that you want? All the mechs to be running around with insane builds like 2 SRM4s, an LRM 10, 2 Medium lasers a PPC and an AC2?

Its never going to happen. People build mechs that are easy to manage the weapon groups on so they can focus on driving, not managing like 6 different cooldowns and range brackets.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 23 January 2015 - 02:56 AM.

[Latorque]

No, i don't want to get rid of convergence, for reasons.

You'll need to stay out in the open noticeably longer. The cited reasons above don't need to aim at all, unless turning the torso in the general direction is considered aiming. I don't even want to think about the oy vey on these here boards.

[Lead Sponge]

I'd support getting rid of convergence. Without it you have to think about where your weapons are pointed. You could split the difference a bit, and make arm weapons converge and torso weapons not. Then you have a big advantage for putting weapons in your arms.

[B0oN]

YES for getting rid of convergence
YES for getting rid of ghostheat

´nuff said

[Karl Streiger]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 January 2015 - 02:55 AM, said:

What is it exactly that you want? All the mechs to be running around with insane builds like 2 SRM4s, an LRM 10, 2 Medium lasers a PPC and an AC2?

Its never going to happen. People build mechs that are easy to manage the weapon groups on so they can focus on driving, not managing like 6 different cooldowns and range brackets.

You should try it - multiple ranges and weapon behaviour is much more thrilling - rather then press one or two buttons.
Even with 1 weapon type - i try to have at least 4 weapon groups (left arm, right arm, torso, alpha

[monk]

If the whole point of changing the way convergence is dealt with is to reduce the problems with PPD and TTK, then why don't we kill all these birds with one stone and just add negative heat quirks.

When your mech crosses 50% heat it starts to have negative issues (targetting computer can have issues or fail, mech speed and movement capabilities are affected, ammo can cook, visual systems can fail, etc.). These grow in effect and can lead to permanent issues. Because of this, players will strive to manage their heat better, alpha less often, and be more likely to use heavy PPD only when it is tactically appropriate. You won't want to pop off that massive alpha unless necessary because doing so will put you in danger.

This gets us closer to TT rules, without having need to obliterate everything PGI has done thus far (thus saving countless hours upon hours of recoding, rebalancing, etc.) Energy, missile, and ballistics would all be affected by this. As a side benefit, it could also finally make flamers useful. =P

[Widowmaker1981]

Karl Streiger, on 23 January 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

You should try it - multiple ranges and weapon behaviour is much more thrilling - rather then press one or two buttons.
Even with 1 weapon type - i try to have at least 4 weapon groups (left arm, right arm, torso, alpha

I find being effective to be more fun (thrilling?) than not being effective personally.... and yeah, i use up to 4 weapon groups too, but they tend to all have complimentary range profiles, and just based on hardpoint location, to avoid wasting heat into scenery when only half my mech is exposed.

[Duke Nedo]

I think its pretty good the way it is. Like said above, if you lead the target with any weapon you don't have convergence, you only have it for hitscan weapons, so it only applies to lasers/mg and for targets with no transverse speed. That means that the target have the ability to spread damage by moving (and twisting vs hitscan & cLRMs).

I definitely don't want to be forced to be a laser shotgun!

[DaZur]

Anyone who complains about "boating", PPD and lasers needs to take a step back and reassess...

Lasers are Dot... Unless you are face-hugging or your intended target is stationary, very-very few people are able to keep their recticle locked on a singular location to maximize that full alpha through the full discharge of that shot.

Instead the vast majority of players tend to rake their laser shots over multiple locations...

[operatorZ]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 January 2015 - 02:55 AM, said:

What is it exactly that you want? All the mechs to be running around with insane builds like 2 SRM4s, an LRM 10, 2 Medium lasers a PPC and an AC2?

Its never going to happen. People build mechs that are easy to manage the weapon groups on so they can focus on driving, not managing like 6 different cooldowns and range brackets.

No, No, No.....sigh. *facepalm*

I want accuracy dynamics added to the game.....a small dose of realism...everytime somebody suggests a small change you all are like "OOO MMMYYY GAAAD it'll break the game!!!!"

I'm not complaining about anything...at all....I have no problem with lasers or boating ...because I do use both of those methods very effectively...they are easy mode.

I was simply saying that I agree with the OP and would like some adjustments made to convergence or accuracy in general to make the targeting in this game more realistic. It would raise TTK, which in my opinion is a little low. and add a whole new element to the game that could be useful for balance changes and module upgrades etc. Its a win win.

No I am not advocating doing away with convergence!!!

No I am not talking about forcing everybody to have to stand still to hit things!!!

No I am not talking about removing sniper as a role!!!

No I am not talking about making lights invulnerable!!!

I guess you would have to read the thread....

[Taemien]

You know what is ironic about this?

Everyone suggests convergence as a way to deal with low TTK. But they don't realize, or ignore the fact that it would actually not help the TTK. TTK is low because of focus fire from multiple shooters.

Ever since I've come back, the ONLY time I've ever died in less than 10 seconds is when I'm getting shot up by 3-5 mechs or more. NOT one on one. So if you take away convergence and replace it with some derpy system where we have 12 crosshairs, you don't change TTK. It will still only take 3-5 mechs seconds at best to tear down a target.

Even against Daishis and King Crabs I've never gone down in a few seconds in a 1 to 1 fight.

You want to fix TTK? Reduce the drop number to Lance vs Lance. I'm not advocating this. But that is literally the only way. Even in TT where dice rolls cause shots to go in random directions. In a 12v12 fight.. the first mech to come in LOS and range gets downed in a single turn.

Now for PPD, I'm not against delinking bigger weapons. Making them chain fire and only dealing between 20 and 30 points of damage to a location. That means we're effectively doing less damage per location per shot than TT (with 2x armor here). That would help with the random duels that happen. Could probably do away with ghost heat at that point, won't be able to trigger it anymore.

Basically AC20s can be fired one at a time. AC10s and PPCs 2 at a time, Gauss rifles 1 at a time. Large (pulse) Lasers 2-3 at a time, medium (pulse) lasers 4 at a time, and small (pulse) lasers six at a time. Missiles are fine as they hit random locations already.

But convergence won't do anything but frustrate players. And think about it this way.. convergence doesn't change missiles. You're buffing the ever living crap out of them by making other weapons not converge. Do you all want that? Do we really want 1pt damage SRMs and 0.5 damage LRMs to compensate? I don't.

Yeah removing convergence isn't a great idea. Alot less work is involved with de-linking weapons like I suggested above.

[Duke Nedo]

Realistic would be.... mechs not having legs, perfect auto-aim and no cockpit.

Anyways, I don't mind small recoil for ACs, unlocking left arm from right arm and removing arm-lock toggle and stuff, but random cone of fire or non-convergence in any shape or form sounds like a bad bounce to me.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 23 January 2015 - 07:10 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Widowmaker1981, on 20 January 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

My point was really that you can't define it in a meaningful way, setting it to 'all weapons on the mech' would do nothing at all, most people don't use all the hardpoints on mechs that have lots (like timbers, stormcrows, dire wolves, banshees, etc) so it would cost them 1/2 a ton to circumvent. At that point you are setting a cap on either: number of total weapons or total max allowable damage output. What should those numbers be?

There is no "number" that would please everyone so that idea is out. The further use of GH, despite the hate it seems to generate, might allow for less "BIG HITS" to be allowed over a certain time period. Denying the players the ability to carry a "BIG HIT" on a BIG Mech would be simply bad news.

What good is a DW if it was to get handicapped at a 40 (or any just arbitrary value) point Alpha? Want to really reduce the damage output? Remove hard points, or move more of them out to the Mechs extremities.

[Almond Brown]

1453 R, on 20 January 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

Funny part is that this cap/limiter already exists.

It's called your heat bar.

Stop clamoring for convergence 'fixes' and start clamoring for proper utilization of the heat bar. A reasonable system of heat penalties would solve a lot of the super-high pinpoint issues without hurting a player's ability to hit that they aim at.

Keep your 'Mech below 50% heat? You're fine. Carry on, soldier. Keep your 'Mech between 50%-75% heat? You're going to suffer some HUD glitches, perhaps a few mobility knocks here and there, and your vision might start to swim from heat exhaustion if you keep it up too long, but you can still fight. Ride that sucker at 90+% for minutes at a time? You're courting heat sink failure, ammo cookoffs, and pilot blackouts.

Do that first. Then talk convergence. Or, preferably, don't. Since not hitting what you aim at is never really acceptable in a shooter.

Not a fan of Heat disabilities per say, but perhaps have the Shutdown Threshold be lowered. Again, no idea what values would be suitable, but more Heat or quicker shutdown for running HOT heavy builds might be a quicker and easier to tweak fix.

So if one wants a 70 point Alpha, and not carry the HS's enough to keep cool after 1-2 trigger pulls, then pay the piper. Allowing a 60-70 point Alpha, even 5 times in a row, is a bit much given the current PP accuracy we are allowed.

[eFTy]

I really like the idea of user-set convergence. At least preset in the mechbay if not mid-battle tune-able.
I also really like the idea of negative effects from excessive heat - HUD issues like in MW4 when the head got shot, chance for ammo to cook off and blow up, slower speed, breaking heat sinks etc. Right now I often see mechs alpha and overheat 3-4 times in a row (without any pause in between) and it's getting really annoying.

[Almond Brown]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 January 2015 - 02:55 AM, said:

What is it exactly that you want? All the mechs to be running around with insane builds like 2 SRM4s, an LRM 10, 2 Medium lasers a PPC and an AC2?

Its never going to happen. People build mechs that are easy to manage the weapon groups on so they can focus on driving, not managing like 6 different cooldowns and range brackets.

A good Stock Pilot would strongly disagree. Actually managing like 4-6 different cool-downs and range brackets is what makes the best Pilots. Smashing the LMB or RMB over and over, a good Mech pilot makes...not.

But that is the Main issue in a nutshell. Players do not have to Pilot a Mech, just drive and mash. (some do for sure, but 85% are mashers)

[Lordred]

I am all for removed, delayed, or settable convergance,

But not instantaneous pin point perfect.

[Gas Guzzler]

operatorZ, on 22 January 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

You realize that you just named a bunch of them....? Want me to name some more? Ok easy....wubshee...timber laser vomit....Firestarter small laser....TDR ppc or laser.... Streak crow...srm crow...laser crow....the list goes on....it's called the meta....have you heard of it?

..If you really want in on this conversation you would have to read where it started.....I'm not going to explain it all again.

NONE OF THIS LIST HAS PPFLD!!!

PPC TDR okay it can run 3 zOMG!! Gyrok already mentioned that one anyway.

[Gas Guzzler]

Almond Brown, on 23 January 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

A good Stock Pilot would strongly disagree. Actually managing like 4-6 different cool-downs and range brackets is what makes the best Pilots. Smashing the LMB or RMB over and over, a good Mech pilot makes...not.

But that is the Main issue in a nutshell. Players do not have to Pilot a Mech, just drive and mash. (some do for sure, but 85% are mashers)

Wow. Pat yourself on the back a little harder.

I don't think it is even about managing all that stuff its about specializing in 1 aspect of combat. With the described build (LRMs, SRMs, AC2, lasers) the mech will not excel at anything. If I am in a long distance standoff, my SRMs and medium lasers are a complete waste of tonnage. If I am in short range, LRMs, and AC2 is a bit meh because you have to stare down to get DPS out of it.

operatorZ, on 22 January 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

You realize that you just named a bunch of them....? Want me to name some more? Ok easy....wubshee...timber laser vomit....Firestarter small laser....TDR ppc or laser.... Streak crow...srm crow...laser crow....the list goes on....it's called the meta....have you heard of it?

..If you really want in on this conversation you would have to read where it started.....I'm not going to explain it all again.

Also, how does a nerf to aiming address LRM boating? Please explain.

[operatorZ]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 January 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:

Also, how does a nerf to aiming address LRM boating? Please explain.

ummm LRM's ...they seem balanced to me, I don't really notice them that much I guess. I don't have any suggestions on that. I don't use them personally, all though they can be very effective in certain situations. To me boating LRM's is signing up for less exciting game play, so those that do...more power to you I guess.