1126 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

"Do [you] want to get rid of convergence?"

It depends. The current system is better than any kind of CoF mechanics. I would be against any kind of increased randomness.

If it was some kind of real non-random more complex convergence mechanic, such as convergence working like a focus adapting to different ranges with a delay, then that would be awesome.

But if that came at the cost of worse hit registration and heavier CPU load to a degree that causes problems, it would not be worth it and better like it is now.

Whatever happens, NO CoF! NO Random spread! That would be ****** design.

[Firelizard]

I'd be happy with parallel firing, if all else fails. No convergence at all.

If could deal with it in the old TIE Fighter sim, I can deal with it here ^.^

[Scyther]

I have to agree with the people who say "give me hit registration that actually registers, and HSR that doesn't pass my shots through the mech in front of me", before I want them to mess with convergence.

That being said, in the long run I would have no problem with torso mounted weapons firing straight ahead, and arm weapons having decent convergence. At least, *some* arm weapons... the notion of a Jagers' twin straight-ahead AC's both shooting me in the CT at a range of 10 metres or less has always been an issue with me.

I also see lasers as inherently more convergeable than ballistics, gauss, PPCs and to some extent, unguided SRMs.

As regards Cone of Fire, it certainly hasn't stopped World of Tanks from gaining millions of players... although of course they spend a lot of time b*tch*ng about the RNG.

As far as RNG goes, hit registration, wonky hitboxes, and HSR mean that many of us are already dealing with random chance to miss all the time... it's just not intentional. (Maybe)

One thing to keep in mind is that sweeping game mechanics changes don't actually make as much difference as you might think. Your foes won't be able to alpha-pinpoint your CT or leg anymore, but you won't be able to PPFLD either. Your time-to-get-killed might increase, so will everything you shoot at. The meta will move on to whatever the next-most-efficient-kill-method is and people will b*tch about that.

Instead of focusing on 'what way would rules/canon want it', or 'what way makes the most sense', or 'what way increases TTK'; we should probably be asking 'what system is the most new-player friendly and overall satisfying (or least frustrating) for the most players?'.

Because in the long run, that's where we want to be.

Edited by MadBadger, 07 April 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[KraftySOT]

MadBadger, on 07 April 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

I think I have to agree with the people who say "give me hit registration that actually registers, and HSR that doesn't pass my shots through the mech in front of me", before I want to see them mess with convergence.

That being said, in the long run I would have no problem with torso mounted weapons firing straight ahead, and arm weapons having decent convergence. At least, *some* arm weapons... the notion of a Jagers twin straight-ahead AC's both shooting me in the CT at a range of 10 metres or less has always been an issue with me.

I also see lasers as inherently more convergeable than ballistics, gauss, PPCs and to some extent, unguided SRMs.

As regards to Cone of Fire, it certainly hasn't stopped World of Tanks from gaining millions of players... although of course they spend a lot of time b*tch*ng about the RNG.

As far as RNG goes, hit registration, wonky hitboxes, and HSR mean that many of us are already dealing with random chance to miss all the time... it's just not intentional. (Maybe)

One thing to keep in mind is that sweeping game mechanics changes don't actually make as much difference as you might think. Your foes won't be able to alpha-pinpoint your CT or leg anymore, but you won't be able to PPFLD either. Your time-to-get-killed might increase, so will everything you shoot at. The meta will move on to whatever the next-most-efficient-kill-method is and people will b*tch about that.

Instead of focusing on 'what way would rules/canon want it', or 'what way makes the most sense', or 'what way increases TTK'; we should probably be asking 'what system is the most new-player friendly and overall satisfying (or least frustrating) for the most players?'.

Because in the long run, that's where we want to be.

See, a perfectly rational argument.

My only issue with that is that some Gundams are taking more advantage of HSR being bizorked, than others. While a convergence change would exacerbate the problem on those problem Gundams, the rest of the Gundam universe would be most thankful.

No Awesome pilot ever, has been like "thank god the HSR is bad".

It doesnt work that way.

[KraftySOT]

MadBadger, on 07 April 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

.. although of course they spend a lot of time b*tch*ng about the RNG.

To be fair, for clarity, they arent whining about the RNG aiming, theyre whining about the RNG penetration system.

Where when a hit is calculated, a random integer is added on top of your penetration rating (malused by angle and thickness of plate hit, range, etc) to give MOAR PENETRATION.

People complain about that. Not the aiming. I havent seen an aim whine there or in War Blunder ever. Its about the penetration system.

Which in WWIIonline, where they didnt have a random system, and had much more fidelity (which is what the random integer takes care of, way less processing for less fidelity, but has the APPEARANCE of high fidelity damage modeling) you still had the "I hit the Char Bis 1 in the right engine plate with my 37mm HV gun and it didnt die WTF devs?!"

Thats just physics for you.

Im sure 50, 57, 75, 76, and 88mm shells bounced off things all the time in the real war, when you didnt expect them too. If you read Joachim Piper's accounts in his Tiger, theres plenty of instances where he thought he had a kill, only to see the enemy continue to move and fire, or a richochet. Heck, with German APHE, sometimes the HE didnt go off. Like the MkII Torpedos used by the USA, that had its fusing fail 80% of the time for two straight years.

Edited by KraftySOT, 07 April 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Sjorpha]

KraftySOT, on 07 April 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

I never knew I could dislike so many people, over what to me, seems to be such a small issue.

"It would be bad design"

What you mean like the 1,200 successful titles since the 90s that have CoF?

Yeah.

Bad design.

Does it make me a bad person for hoping your ISP cancels your service? Without derailing the already long derailed thread any further. This is like people who say climate change doesnt exist, that the world is 5,000 years old, or that Jeebus spoke to them through their toilet bowl and told them that we didnt evolve, but were infact, created in a metaphysical assembly plant on planet God.

Assuming you are talking to me?

I personally dislike randomness in game design. I'm not commenting on whether other people would like it or whether it has been popular in other games, I'm just saying I would not like it.

I prefer non random complexity to account for difficult aiming, like for example slow travel speeds, gravity dropoff for bullets, wind direction, delayed convergence (like a camera focus, and the trajectories would spread according to their travel path from their given hardpoint location through the current point of convergence range, it would be a sort of non-random CoF mechanic I guess, but it would be open to learning and mastering because it's non random, a good enough player could pull off extremely hard shots by accounting for all the factors)

How is that offensive to you? We just disagree on a game design detail. Your reaction is super weird, though you are probably a good person, but this ISP canceling jesus cockslapping mother of disney evolution whatever stuff: WTF?

Edited by Sjorpha, 07 April 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[Voivode]

There's a lot going on already. Just split the IS ACs into pieces (but not as many rounds per volley as clan) and bump up the cooldown on gauss, ppc/erppc, and LL/ERLL.

Convergence would be kind of cool but doing it right would be difficult for an AAA studio, let alone a small studio like PGI. I think just reducing the PPFLD and lowering the DPS for long range weapons would be sufficient. The balance is much better now than it has been in the past so trying something that drastic seems unnecessary.

[Myke Pantera]

I am against the removal of Convergence.
1) Ammo driven weapons will waste more ammo and we have double armor with regular ammo with most weapon systems already.
2) Try hitting small lights with torso mounted weapons on broad assault.
3) LRM and SSRM will be king and I like neither of them
4) Weapon systems that require leading like PPCs, ACs and SRMs don't have convergence against moving targets anyway... So this is all about gauss (up to a certain range) and lasers...

[RedDragon]

KraftySOT, on 07 April 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Youre now doing it on purpose. Which makes you a terrible human being.

You mean like calling mechs Gundams just to piss BT-fans off? Start acting like an adult and maybe others will follow your lead. Just my 2 cents.

[Alienized]

with all the hitreg issues... this is not a real question. it would propably let these issues explode massively.
not to mention that mechs had enough well made targeting mechanics to limit convergence to a min.
AC's had stabilizations etc etc

[Alienized]

sarna? i read enough books where those things have been said. sarna is not everything.

[Rebas Kradd]

Myke Pantera, on 07 April 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

4) Weapon systems that require leading like PPCs, ACs and SRMs don't have convergence against moving targets anyway... So this is all about gauss (up to a certain range) and lasers...

Good point. Removing convergence would mark a massive shift in meta. This is really about laser vomit, and I don't agree with sweeping global changes to address one weapon system.

[KraftySOT]

http://www.qqmercs.c...ence-and-clans/

Im just going to leave this here since Homeless Bill is one of, if not the, most upstanding and hardworking member of our community, who is helping host and promote the only real money tournament this game has ever had.

Dont just listen to me. Dont just pay attention to the fact that I loathe so many of you in bittervetness.

Listen to Homeless Bill. He still has patience.

[Redacted].

Convergence has to come to an end. Its a byproduct of terrible game design, and a byproduct of PGIs inexperience with the engine. Hopefully they have enough now to do what they probably wished they could have done in the first place and actually separate each weapon in the code.

Theres a reason Covergence Speed doesnt work. Its because they ripped out the old way hits were registered and damage was applied and put in a simplified system in hopes that it works better and uses less traffic then attached HSR to make sure it worked.

It didnt really help, and it made TTK ridiculously lower than it already was, and those of us with 50 ping or less, are tearing up CTs and lulzing in the tear rivers.

My only concern with the removal of Convergence all together, or going back to the old system and making Convergence Speed a meaningful thing, is PGIs ability to do that.

Debating the merits of the system is ridiculous and you should all be ashamed of yourselves for being counter intuitive and ignorant of the code, the past code changes, PGI, the TT, other successful franchises, etc.

Alienized, on 07 April 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

sarna? i read enough books where those things have been said. sarna is not everything.

You mean Stackpole novels?

Because nothing you said, is in any rule book or otherwise.

[KraftySOT]

No matter what kind of somersaults you can make your mind do.

There is no way these two UAC20s ever converge on a target. Ever.




The whole advantage to arm mounted weapons, which are terrible in MWO, is that those can converge if you have the actuators to do it.

No torso mounted weapon other than turret and swivel mounted will ever converge:



See the turret? That can converge. Though the two medium lasers in them, cant, just like the two .50 cals in a turret here cant:




Its maddening.

We've been having this conversation for years.




This is stupid. It hurts gameplay, it looks bad, its amateurish, ... it pains my heart.



Its sad to see these images from 2013.

Edited by KraftySOT, 07 April 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[Sjorpha]

KraftySOT, on 07 April 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

"Whatever happens, NO CoF! NO Random spread! That would be ****** design. "

That should offend every rational minded human being on earth.

Thats like saying you should build coal power plants without carbon scrubbers, because thats ****** design.

No man, every game thats ever been highly successful has a CoF and random spread (semi random, I dont think you guys actually understand what happens in development/code terms) and every weapon that has extremely low spread, or no spread, is universally hated by every one but Goons and trolls.

Quake 3 for instance. How popular was Instagib vs actual competitive arena play. And thats a friggin sci fi ***** arena shooter that was basically nothing more than an engine demo, and it was more advanced and challenging than we are, 15 years later.

Youre living under a rock (thats the Island catchphrase) and that offends me, as it should offend, everyone else.

So because I don't like a specific type of suggestion regarding a few weapon categories in one game, and express this opinion on that game's forum with some emphasis, but without any form of flaming or trolling, I'm suddenly under a rock, ******** beyond the point of religious literalism, and should offend every thinking person on this planet.

k.

It kinda gives me this urge to hold and comfort you like I do my kids when they have their fits, no offense intended.

I might even go ahead and say "give Krafty his CoF", just because I can't match the passionate care for the issue.

Edited by Sjorpha, 07 April 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[Alienized]

KraftySOT, on 07 April 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

http://www.qqmercs.c...ence-and-clans/

Im just going to leave this here since Homeless Bill is one of, if not the, most upstanding and hardworking member of our community, who is helping host and promote the only real money tournament this game has ever had.

Dont just listen to me. Dont just pay attention to the fact that I loathe so many of you in bittervetness.

Listen to Homeless Bill. He still has patience.

Youre all bad and I hate you.

Convergence has to come to an end. Its a byproduct of terrible game design, and a byproduct of PGIs inexperience with the engine. Hopefully they have enough now to do what they probably wished they could have done in the first place and actually separate each weapon in the code.

Theres a reason Covergence Speed doesnt work. Its because they ripped out the old way hits were registered and damage was applied and put in a simplified system in hopes that it works better and uses less traffic then attached HSR to make sure it worked.

It didnt really help, and it made TTK ridiculously lower than it already was, and those of us with 50 ping or less, are tearing up CTs and lulzing in the tear rivers.

My only concern with the removal of Convergence all together, or going back to the old system and making Convergence Speed a meaningful thing, is PGIs ability to do that.

Debating the merits of the system is ridiculous and you should all be ashamed of yourselves for being counter intuitive and ignorant of the code, the past code changes, PGI, the TT, other successful franchises, etc.



You mean Stackpole novels?

Because nothing you said, is in any rule book or otherwise.

nope. i literally have read the complete battletech bookline (except a few books that are hard to get and the dark age era because imho they are crap) it gets mentioned more often than just in stackpole's novels.

rule book? TT wise that is so good to transfer into a non-round based shooter game like this. we already have alot of things from TT that arent working well and some that are.

[DaZur]

KraftySOT, on 07 April 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

No man, every game thats ever been highly successful has a CoF and random spread (semi random, I dont think you guys actually understand what happens in development/code terms) and every weapon that has extremely low spread, or no spread, is universally hated by every one but Goons and trolls.

Let's be fair and accurate... you are point out FPS that by-in-large utilize a global hit box with a single health number. MW:O uses a more intricate localized hit box with localized heath numbers (armor).

In most FPS it's a simple matter of spraying enough damage into your target until it's heath drops to zero... In MW:O it's a bit more complex with multiple hit-boxes, thus multiple "dead or wounded" outcomes...

CoF and random spread on MW:O, while more closely matches the chance die roll, becomes a ungainly mechanic in a game that pendant upon aimed skill shots.

[KraftySOT]

Sjorpha, on 07 April 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

So because I don't like a specific type of suggestion regarding a few weapon categories in one game, and express this opinion on that game's forum with some emphasis, but without any form of flaming or trolling, I'm suddenly under a rock, ******** beyond the point of religious literalism, and should offend every thinking person on this planet.

Yes. Your argument might as well be, I dont like carbon scrubbers in this new coal power plant, so we shouldnt use them, regardless of them being highly successful and integral parts of all the other coal power plants. You like black smog, and you dont care who knows it.

One mans opinion, is the worst possible of all cases to be made. Stick with the data. The data says, all modern games, have semi challenging aiming mechanics, all vehicle sims use some sort of convergence system, and no game anywhere, has weapons effects coming out at 80 degree angles to their barrel models.

That went out ... literally with Daikatana and Tribes in the 90s.

[DaZur]

KraftySOT, on 07 April 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

See the turret? That can converge. Though the two medium lasers in them, cant, just like the two .50 cals in a turret here cant:

Um.... Just for clarity, those 50's do converge...

http://en.wikipedia....n_harmonisation

The gunner has means to dead-set the range of convergence mechanically.

To further answer your question regarding torso based convergence and plausibility... Laser mounts gimbled lense mounts as such they are allotted some axial adjustment to allow convergence and the same can be accomplished for ballistics the same way WWII fighters did.

Yes, I know it's easier to just presume the mounts are static but that's just being myopic for the sake of bolstering ones argument

Edited by DaZur, 07 April 2015 - 10:44 AM.

[KraftySOT]

DaZur, on 07 April 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Let's be fair and accurate... you are point out FPS that by-in-large utilize a global hit box with a single health number. MW:O uses a more intricate localized hit box with localized heath numbers (armor).

In most FPS it's a simple matter of spraying enough damage into your target until it's heath drops to zero... In MW:O it's a bit more complex with multiple hit-boxes, thus multiple "dead or wounded" outcomes...

CoF and random spread on MW:O, while more closely matches the chance die roll, becomes a ungainly mechanic in a game that pendant upon aimed skill shots.

Name one modern FPS with a single hitbox.

Arms, body, legs, head. Even the actor drop in for Crysis and Unity have that. All vehicle sims, have a plethora of hitboxes, with a plethora of values. Some use hit points. Some use "thresholds". Some use a joules based system.

We arent even an FPS. Were a vehicle sim.

Our sister games are Elite, Star Citizen, World of Tanks, Arma3, War Blunder, WWIIOnline, Hawken, Planetside, etc. While some of those have FPS players running around with vehicles, at their heart, they are vehicle games.

There hasnt been a vehicle game with a single hitbox or single group of hitpoints since Spectre. IN THE 80S!

Even Muzzle Velocity, which was a 2D SPRITE BASED GAME (in a 3D environment, like Daggerfall), had advanced hitbox detection and multiple lists of HPs for components:




1997.

We are not new. We are not original. We are Devo(lution).

Edited by KraftySOT, 07 April 2015 - 10:45 AM.