1126 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

Doman Hugin, on 09 April 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

No we want to nerf the FPS and get MechWarrior

Sorry, this is MechWarrior, I have played MW1, 2 and GBL and 3 quite a bit in the past and you could pinpoint components in those games as well. I am a big advocate of making this game as true to TT as possible, but RNG is not what we need. The dice rolls in TT were there to simulate the effects of physics and the environment on the mechwarrior, as well as the level of skill that that mechwarrior had. PGI just needs to perfect the physics and environment aspect, the skill aspect is how well we can aim and control out mechs and the "luck" aspect is latencey and framerates.

I do not want to feel like I have to be in a WWI vehicle that requires me to turn a crank to rotate a turret before I can fire, this is not what tech is like now and certainly not what it would be 1000+ years from now (provided that we have not reverted to cave men during that time).

Edited by Ed Steele, 09 April 2015 - 10:09 AM.

[KraftySOT]

People still perpetuating the myth that WoT uses an RNG in aiming.


Dudes. The RNG in WoT adds to your penetration value. Thats what people are complaining about.

No one is complaining about "aiming with dice" in WoT.

Go to their freaking forums people. War thunder has the same game devices in aiming as WoT, but no RNG dictating penetration values for your weapons, theyre fixed.

Theres so many lies in this thread its mind blowing. People who perpetuate this stuff should be banned.

Marmon Rzohr, on 09 April 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

Why do you think removing convergence will help ?

The cornerstones of MechWarrior combat are:

1) Multiple weapon management


Removing convergence doesn't help any of the core aspects. It doesn't incentivize varied, multi-weapon loadouts. It doesn't incentivize precise fire (in fact it kinda nerfs this concept).

Read this again.

Read it again.

Now read it again.

So youre saying, that convergence, which ultimately makes all your weapons into a single weapon, IE boating, which is the meta, wont be helped, by the lack of convergence, forcing you to NOT fire all your weapons at the same time, or to specialize in a weapon system other than "as many of the same thing as I can bring".

If all 8 of your small pulse lasers, dont hit the same location, why shoot them all the same time.

RIGHT NOW we have no multiple weapon management unless youre bad at MWO. If youre good, you have one, MAYBE a second weapon system.

2 Guass and 2 PPC is the same single weapon, its fired as such and acts as such. 3 LPL and 5 MPL is one weapon system. 6 LL is one weapon system.

Read what you wrote again, because you spelled it out, and then dont see it.

[LordNothing]

arm points should converge, torso mounted points should be fixed to max range convergence.

[KraftySOT]

Lack of convergence literally means, you have to fire your AC10, then your 4 medium lasers, then your SRM6, because if you fire them all at the same time, or ripped out the AC and SRMs for MOAR LASERS, youre considerably less effective, alpha striking all over creation, than placing each shot individually.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

If all 8 of your small pulse lasers, dont hit the same location, why shoot them all the same time.

Cause you still do damage quicker even if it is not pin point accurate.

[Max Liao]

Dimento Graven, on 08 April 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

No, that's not what they said they were doing for MWO, I think you're thinking of MWTactics.

The original FAQ, until they removed it, said they would follow tabletop rules where they could. That information was removed sometime just prior to/just after Founders money was spent.

Dimento Graven, on 08 April 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

I disagree, the very first PC version of BattleTech had pin point accuracy in it. It being maintained in quite a few of the later titles, and coincidentally being maintained in MWO feels 'par for the course' for me.

And you will never find a post from me saying that the M$ versions of the game were any good, in terms of representing the BT/MW universe. They were robot shooters, not MechWarrior. At least I can pass them off as single-player games that stylized the BT/MW universe, not purported to try and mimic it.

Dimento Graven, on 08 April 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

The die roll in BT is a very effective compromise to 'aim' vs. 'battle round time'.

If Jamie Wolf can’t hit with pin-point accuracy, neither should we.

Dimento Graven, on 08 April 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Believe me, if I had to depend on getting "lucky" every time I took an aimed shot at a stationary target, or a target silly enough to move in one direction out in the open, I'd have LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG left this game behind.

I don’t support pure RNG, but I do support conical fire akin to World of Tanks – (which has far more players than MWO, so, apparently, some people like it). It would also better simulate stationary, walking and running speed modifiers.

Dimento Graven, on 08 April 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

The broken hit reg, hsr, and craptastic hit boxes already make getting your shots register where you want them, hard enough as it is. No sense in letting a coin flip ALSO screw over effort and negate actual skill.

A MechWarrior’s ‘skill’ doesn’t come just from the MechWarrior, it comes from his tools … such as centuries old BattleMechs, faulty targeting computers, and Lostech replacement parts … as well as his or her skill.

E Rommel, on 08 April 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

You want a cone of fire because it would be realistic?

No, I want CoF because it’s the best balance between die rolls (pure RNG) and video game FPS pinpoint accuracy.

E Rommel, on 08 April 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Alright, the cone of fire is about the size of the action pose guy at its largest. I'll probably still perform laser surgery on your side torso 95% of the time.

If Jamie Wolf can’t hit with pin-point accuracy, neither should we. BattleTech science does not equal real world earth science. Any comparison is instantly moot. We should be playing within the BT/MW science – (as silly as some of it is) – not within real world physics.

SovietKoshka, on 08 April 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

RNG IS A POOR WAY TO BALANCE ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING.
RNG IS NOT CLEVER GAME DESIGN!

I don’t think anyone is asking for pure RNG. If you consider CoF to be RNG, which, yes, technically it has RNG mechanics, then you’re simply wrong when it comes to the BT/MW universe. It’s the appropriate game design for a universe that does not have pinpoint accuracy.

Ed Steele, on 08 April 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Only complete mental deficients would want to have RNG targetting in an FPS, it is pointless to argue with them, they won't understand reason or logic. Mechs have weapon stabilization which would probably be many times better than what modern battle tanks use and modern tanks are pretty damned accurate at much longer distances than we are typically firing at each other from.

So, you know nothing of BT/MW lore? We’re supposed to be playing in the BT/MW universe, not in the Giant Stompy Robot Future Earth Based on Modern Physics universe. It is true that BT/MW has some nonsensical lore in order to create a tabletop game that actually fit on your table top. But it is what it is. We don’t redesign the BT/MW universe to fit 21st century wants and video game desires, for that you create an entirely new game universe.

MechWarrior4184181, on 08 April 2015 - 10:17 PM, said:

Battletech weapon ranges are a result of hardware limitations.

It is not feasible to have 100 yards of table to accurately simulate a 20 mile artillery range.

As such, the video game needs to adhere to this. Not just in ranges, but in all BT/MW related canon that can translate into a video game.

[bar10jim]

How about fixed convergence? A player can assign a convergence distance to each weapons group.

[CygnusX7]

I vote yes.
This way I can mount 2 or more NARC and fire them at multiple opponents simultaneously.
Someone will take me seriously so I'm going to add that I'm not serious.

But yes, there should be another level of complexity to aiming in this game.
On the other hand isn't aiming handled by a computer? Why shouldn't there be significant convergence?
Maybe not as precise? Tough to say.

[Mystere]

Ed Steele, on 09 April 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

Sorry, this is MechWarrior, I have played MW1, 2 and GBL and 3 quite a bit in the past and you could pinpoint components in those games as well. I am a big advocate of making this game as true to TT as possible, but RNG is not what we need. The dice rolls in TT were there to simulate the effects of physics and the environment on the mechwarrior, as well as the level of skill that that mechwarrior had. PGI just needs to perfect the physics and environment aspect, the skill aspect is how well we can aim and control out mechs and the "luck" aspect is latencey and framerates.

Let me try to put an end to this ingenious association of CoF to RNGs and dice rolls:

• CEP <> RNG
  
• CEP <> dice rolls

• Mechanical Slop <> RNG
  
• Mechanical Slop <> dice rolls

• CEP + Mechanical Slop ≈ CoF (i.e. good enough )

Ed Steele, on 09 April 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

I do not want to feel like I have to be in a WWI vehicle that requires me to turn a crank to rotate a turret before I can fire, this is not what tech is like now and certainly not what it would be 1000+ years from now (provided that we have not reverted to cave men during that time).

This:

Joseph Mallan, on 08 April 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

According to Lore the tech is not much better early 20th century when it comes to targeting. Many of the Targeting Computers are unable to calculate the targeting of 3 weapons or more. hence teh CoF.

Edited by Mystere, 09 April 2015 - 10:33 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Yeah people dont seem to realize, Battlemechs were really only built 300 years from today, and 500 years from today, the entire collective human race, takes an 800 year step backwards, and by 3050, is only 450 years into the climb back out of that 800 year step backwards.

[Mystere]

KraftySOT, on 09 April 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

People still perpetuating the myth that WoT uses an RNG in aiming.

Because there are those who believe that if you associate two hated things together (e.g. WoT and RNG) to describe something, people will also hate that "something".

Edited by Mystere, 09 April 2015 - 10:30 AM.

[KraftySOT]

And in their universe, theres a world war three, and four, that take place on earth, BEFORE anyone goes out an colonizes the stars.

Youre looking at your first colony, in like 2250, and your first real battlemech in 2450, then by 2650, most of humanities main cities on thousands of worlds, are reduced to ash in a cloud of nuclear hellfire.

By 2850. Theyve learned how to repair jump ships and mechs.

By 3049. They build the first Jump Ship in over 500 years.

Our mechs arent futuristic fancy machines. Theyre barely running relics of a bygone age.

Like if on earth we had an asteroid hit back in the middle ages, and today, people are still using catapults and trebuchets. Not the mechs, I mean, actual catapults and trebuchets. Where most libraries dont exist anymore, and only a handful of people know how to repair them.

Which is actually the case today. Theres only a handful of people world wide who know how to built a medivel trebuchet.

[KuroNyra]

Ed Steele, on 08 April 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Only complete mental deficients would want to have RNG targetting in an FPS, it is pointless to argue with them, they won't understand reason or logic. Mechs have weapon stabilization which would probably be many times better than what modern battle tanks use and modern tanks are pretty damned accurate at much longer distances than we are typically firing at each other from.

The lore say otherwise. Mechs weren't able to achieve pin-point accuracy. prooved countless of time by the rules, and by the books.

Not for nothing the Clans mech like the Warhawk were know were know to be deadly accurate with there special targeting computer. But even theses TC not allowed constant pin-point accuracy.

But apparently, what is canon and part of the universe is too correct to be listened by guys saying there not " complete mental deficients"... Or are they?

Edited by KuroNyra, 09 April 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[KraftySOT]

There was a 200 year period in the Inner Sphere, where interplanetary commerce ceased to exist.

Comstar changed that, but private shipping didnt start up again until almost 300 years after the first succession war.

That alone turned planets that were industrial giants, into planets with cavemen living on them. The population of the IS went from tens of billions, to just a few billion. In a pretty short time frame.

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 April 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

Cause you still do damage quicker even if it is not pin point accurate.

Or chainfire them, and have each one hit your reticle. (That would require aiming 8 times, therefore: skillz)

[KraftySOT]

And if it wasnt for the stupid clans happening when Fasa wanted some more $$$, the Inner Sphere would still be a place that more like a post apocalyptic game, than a futuristic sci fi blastem sockem robots game.

Its Wasteland in space. (or Fallout in Space for you young kids)

Yes, the Enclave has laser weapons and powerarmor, and even produces some, but theyre just using relics of a bygone era. Some new things come out here and there, but its a world that is slowly dying, not slowly rebuilding itself. Its the end. There was no coming back from the collapse, until...OMG HERES A TIMBERWOLF AND ER LARGE LAZORS!

Before the clans happened, when we Btech fans knew the timeline was going to expand, and heard rumors of what was coming, we thought the next iteration would be LESS powerful, than the 3025 era. That things had gotten WORSE, not better. We were pretty surprised to see weapons and mechs that were far more powerful than anything we'd ever seen or dreamed of. Double heat sinks were....strange to say the least.

We were expecting half heat sinks. Not doubles.

Hotthedd, on 09 April 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Or chainfire them, and have each one hit your reticle. (That would require aiming 8 times, therefore: skillz)

All of those are good ideas.

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 April 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 08 April 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

The main problem I see is that you equate CoF to "getting Lucky", instead of the math behind the proposals being presented by people ...

BECAUSE THE ULTIMATE EFFECT OF IMPLEMENTING ANY FORUMULAS TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THE UNMOVING PINPOINT LOCATION I HAVE UNDER MY TARGETING PIXEL IS ACTUALLY HIT, EFFECTIVELY BECOMES AN RNG.

Whether or not you simply make a call to the assembler's RNG function, or embed a huge table of numbers, or some 14 page long trig function, the ultimate effect is RANDOM.

If I have an unmoving target, an unmoving weapon, and all that's done is carefully put the pixel where I want, and the computer, even under those perfect circumstances, STILL has to do an extra "something" to decide whether or not I hit, it becomes VERY PLAINLY a literal coin flip.

It doesn't matter how complex the f'ing coin flip process is or how many goddamn sides you put on the coin, it is STILL an f'ing coin flip.

Period.

You're not going to baffle us with bullshit into believing it isn't.

Quote

... and then finally reveal the real reason behind your "arguments".

And what's the basis of YOUR arguments? Ultimately you're tired of getting headshot by playing stupid. Damn near EVERY time this comes up it's because the OP was playing stupidly, standing still, or at most walking out in the open in a straight line, and got head shot, and had it happen a few matches in a row (I know because I've done this to people).

"OH IT'S PINPOINT THAT'S THE PROBLEM, NOT ME!" and off they run to the forums to try some passive aggressive bullshit plea to get all the other unskilled twits to try and buy in on nerfing the game so that they can more easily get away with playing stupid.

[Wicked12B]

pwnface, on 20 January 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

Please no. I want to play a shooter not roll digital dice.

Spot on sir~!

[Dimento Graven]

Lightfoot, on 08 April 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

Thing is these mechs are bound by the de-sync, they have at best 2x medium lasers other than the Gauss Rifles. The Dire Wolf and K Crab have a complete energy boat loadout as well as the 2xGauss so they are not affected by the de-sync if they don't or can't manage it. So at the most damaging level it becomes a special weapon for two mechs only. So the de-sync fails to balance anything.

I think you're over dramatizing the difference.

This is what it looks like when a skilled Jaeger pilot comes up against a not so skilled 'dangerous' Direwolf:

[Hotthedd]

Dimento Graven, on 09 April 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

BECAUSE THE ULTIMATE EFFECT OF IMPLEMENTING ANY FORUMULAS TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THE UNMOVING PINPOINT LOCATION I HAVE UNDER MY TARGETING PIXEL IS ACTUALLY HIT, EFFECTIVELY BECOMES AN RNG.

Whether or not you simply make a call to the assembler's RNG function, or embed a huge table of numbers, or some 14 page long trig function, the ultimate effect is RANDOM.

If I have an unmoving target, an unmoving weapon, and all that's done is carefully put the pixel where I want, and the computer, even under those perfect circumstances, STILL has to do an extra &quot;something&quot; to decide whether or not I hit, it becomes VERY PLAINLY a literal coin flip.

It doesn't matter how complex the f'ing coin flip process is or how many goddamn sides you put on the coin, it is STILL an f'ing coin flip.

Period.

You're not going to baffle us with bullshit into believing it isn't.

And what's the basis of YOUR arguments? Ultimately you're tired of getting headshot by playing stupid. Damn near EVERY time this comes up it's because the OP was playing stupidly, standing still, or at most walking out in the open in a straight line, and got head shot, and had it happen a few matches in a row (I know because I've done this to people).

&quot;OH IT'S PINPOINT THAT'S THE PROBLEM, NOT ME!&quot; and off they run to the forums to try some passive aggressive bullshit plea to get all the other unskilled twits to try and buy in on nerfing the game so that they can more easily get away with playing stupid.

Random. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

If you know your convergence is set at 500m, and you weapons are on your right side, and your target is 400m away, moving laterally at a constant speed, A GOOD pilot will STILL hit the target.