388 replies to this topic

[Ghoster_Prime]

My first post here.

I was pretty enthusiastic about CW launching, it really appeared to be a long time missing element of MWO experience. I've invested a lot of time and c-bills for making an optimal clan drop deck, that suits my playstyle and that contributes to winning battles.

It was fun at the beginning, matches seemed to vary, there were some different scenarios of how the battle could go.

Thing is, CW has become nightmarish. It is now dominated by IS 12-man stompers, focused on overusing PPC TDR-9 builds. It's simply ridiculous. Every game the scenario for 12 mans against randoms makes it unplayable. On the "cold" map any random team attacking is just sniped from a distance and killed by organized push, up to the point of spawn killing. Really? Is this the way you want to almost every match to be played out in 12-man against random scenario? This was to be intended CW experience for casual CW players? You're on a best way to even more shrink the player base for CW.

How can someone not notice that TDR-9 is completely OP when used in 12 man scenario? It's just a long range damage spamming mode that almost cannot be countered by casuals. Especially on the map which allows you to see the spawn point from a veryyyyyyy far distance, and create a firing line that chokes enemy reinforcements to death.

Either PGI does something with it (splitting queues for teams and pugs/rebalances decks) or I'll just simply resign from ANY CW activity. It will slowly but surely make CW a mode for 12 man try-hards with meta-builds.

Maybe this is what it was supposed to be. But then....why enabling solo players drop into matches?

This is just utter crap. Sorry.

[Joseph Mallan]

It became repetitive.
One scenario
2 Maps

That gets old fast when we have been bored on 8 Maps and 3 Scenarios for over a year.

[Bigbacon]

but...but...its beta someone will say....

can't keep hiding behind that.

[UnHolyLegion]

I haven't dropped in one CW match... really don't plan on it until some more player based organization THROUGH THE CLIENT is introduced and PGI figures out a way to increase the playerbase by fixing all of the broken aspects of this game and DRASTICALLY improves the new player experience from just providing a bunch of terrible trial mechs and saying "here you go"

I understand there are dedicated player groups out there. However think about this game from a new-player's point of view with a seemingly vertical learning curve. If i didn't start playing this game from Beta I probably wouldnt give it much at this point in time.

Edited by UnHolyLegion, 26 January 2015 - 10:36 AM.

[Onmyoudo]

Duszanovsky, on 26 January 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Thing is, CW has become nightmarish. It is now dominated by IS 12-man stompers, focused on overusing PPC TDR-9 builds.

This is nonsense - you cannot lay this at the feet of the IS, or a single variant of a chassis.

Duszanovsky, on 26 January 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Every game the scenario for 12 mans against randoms makes it unplayable.

THIS is the problem. I can tell you now it is exactly the same when the situations are reversed and clan 12 mans are stomping the hell out of every IS PUG defense on the border. The problem is voice chat and team work versus no voice chat and no team work.

Some people will argue that the PUGs should just not play CW because it's for teams only. That's a foolish argument that leads to CW and MWO having no population, and no games for anyone else.

Others will argue that the mode should be made to cater to solo players which is completely unfeasible because teams will always work better together than 12 randoms, and teams have every right to play as teams in a team-based mode with a core fanbase of teams.

Would splitting the queues provide better matches? Potentially. It might also potentially kill the queue and leave any team not able to field a full 12 in a very difficult position. Should teams be matched against teams and PUGs against PUGs? Technically that might be very difficult and majorly increase queue times.

Will in-game VOIP and faction matching make a difference? We'll see.

[Argent Usher]

Paul will balance the TDR-9 soon.

[Kjudoon]

I think I'm going to point out two things that go to the heart of what the OP is disappointed with.

1. CW is not even here yet. (More on this advanced version of "It's Beta" point in a moment.)
2. What we have is an expanded version of what we always had, and that's nothing new.

To the first point, yes it's beta, but really it's barely an Alpha release. Why do I say that? Simple, Community Warfare is a new game to be layered on TOP of what is currently being called CW. A warfare simulator that Mechwarrior, or more appropriately Battletech level is a game more in the form of Master of Orion than Mech of Doody. We've got Mech of Doody right now, and just have added a few new features to it, but this is not a 'war'. No it's a string of battles with a leader board. That's all well and good. Necessary development and that, but this is like JRR Tolkien releasing the Lord of the Rings like Charles Dickens releasing his novels, serialized, chapter by chapter in a newspaper! (Bleak House and David Copperfield, check them and their history out).

What this means is that CW is really just Phase 3. A new game that is gathering info and yet to be (potentially) started, integrated and released to the public. Taking planets has no meaning save what we artificially give it in the forums. Heck, what's going ON in the forums with it's ceasefires, gentleman's agreements, complaints about the algorithym and other various and sundry fan creations is it. And to be honest... that ain't much.

Of course, this cannot stand or stay. PGI really needs to realize (which giving them credit for being smart cookies... I know I know, you may disagree, but shush...), which they probably have, is that they are writing a new game to make all these big cool respawn battles part of. Really, what we're doing right now is the mechanics of the moves of a giant game of Master of Orion or Risk or Axis and Allies. That's the next level of this game. To play at the Commander level where you and your unit, and even your mechs become assets on the map. This is not the same sexy game you've been playing. It's what gives all the sexy battles meaning. Giving battles meaning takes this game from being silly sci fi fluff with no value or ability to transcend the genre to something epic and genre defining.

But right now, as I fold into point 2, is we now just have added features, new maps and a leader board with a map, new control over who we fight and how we fight. That is all we have right now. I'm not saying what we have is bad, or criticising it because all these things are neccessary for point 1. We absolutely DO need this work done and worked out before Phase 3 of CW is implemented. Otherwise it will crash and burn so hard... yeah.... it'd be bad.

The only thing that has me truly worried is that PGI does not realize this is what they've done to themselves and that they need to create, almost from ground up, a new game of economics, logistics, interpersonal relationships and data manipulation so big... even Sid Meiers might cringe.

So, keep that in mind, and enjoy what we do have. Look past what is there and see what needs to come, and hope to see those sails on the horizon soon, heralding its arrival to come. I know I am.

[Mark Brandhauber]

My experience with CW is for the most good, the overuse of the tdr-9s does get repetitive fast (I can easily see this mech headed for a nerf, having tried it it's very definitely easy mode). but rather than laying all of cw problems at the foot of one mech (oh btw for clans it's the stormcrow) I would say it's due to the fact it is a beta with only 2 games modes and 2 maps one of which favors attackers and one of which favors defenders, that really are hurting CW, That and the lack of integrated VOIP.

[Tarogato]

Appreciate your feedback, man. It's always nice to have somebody share their opinion without it just being another mindless QQ thread.

But, to rebut,

Teamwork is OP, not the TDR-9S. That Thunderbolt build does one thing well: long range snipe. Sure, it can actually brawl, but it's not kitted out explicitly for that, so you have to understand that it is easy to counter by playing to its weaknesses.

I've participated in a number of IS drops comprised of a 12 man on comms vs. a small clan unit with a few scattered pugs not all from the same clan/faction, and they can rush the gens and there's nothing the Innersphere team can do about it. Especially if we're all in 9S's, because targeting legs with ER PPCs isn't ideal and we all need to eject and grab our hitscan mechs and by then it's too late and the clans have already opened two generators and crippled 3-4 of us.

Also, if we split queues between premade and pug, we wouldn't have the population to sustain CW at all. It becomes a problem when one faction can prevent a 12-man strike team from attacking them by simply not queueing up in the group queue and instead sync-dropping to the solo queue and rolling pugs as a 12-man anyways. Split queues is simply not a plausible solution, and I don't see how it could ever work. If a solo pugger gets butthurt over losing against 12-man, then they have two options: find a unit to join or quit playing CW. Personally, I recommend looking at units, because there are a lot of them with all varieties of personalities and skill levels and you can easily find a group that you'll get along with well.

Duszanovsky, on 26 January 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

My first post here.

I was pretty enthusiastic about CW launching, it really appeared to be a long time missing element of MWO experience. I've invested a lot of time and c-bills for making an optimal clan drop deck, that suits my playstyle and that contributes to winning battles.

It was fun at the beginning, matches seemed to vary, there were some different scenarios of how the battle could go.

Thing is, CW has become nightmarish. It is now dominated by IS 12-man stompers, focused on overusing PPC TDR-9 builds. It's simply ridiculous. Every game the scenario for 12 mans against randoms makes it unplayable. On the "cold" map any random team attacking is just sniped from a distance and killed by organized push, up to the point of spawn killing. Really? Is this the way you want to almost every match to be played out in 12-man against random scenario? This was to be intended CW experience for casual CW players? You're on a best way to even more shrink the player base for CW.

How can someone not notice that TDR-9 is completely OP when used in 12 man scenario? It's just a long range damage spamming mode that almost cannot be countered by casuals. Especially on the map which allows you to see the spawn point from a veryyyyyyy far distance, and create a firing line that chokes enemy reinforcements to death.

Either PGI does something with it (splitting queues for teams and pugs/rebalances decks) or I'll just simply resign from ANY CW activity. It will slowly but surely make CW a mode for 12 man try-hards with meta-builds.

Maybe this is what it was supposed to be. But then....why enabling solo players drop into matches?

This is just utter crap. Sorry.

[xe N on]

If 12 man IS teams dominate CW, why IS constantly loosing space? Took a look at the map recently? the FRR and Kurita capitals are already surrounded by the clan territory.

Edited by xe N on, 26 January 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[_Comrade_]

It is pretty bad. I created an alt account for beta testing cause I want to see what CW is like for new players. With my trial mechs I lose 90% of the time , the rate is higher against premade 12 mans. I make only 30000 c bills a match. New players have no incentive to stick around with the pug stomping and long waits for matches. And we all know games that can't attract new players end up dying , just look at Star Wars the old republic as an example

Edited by Grimwill, 26 January 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Prophetic]

Grimwill, on 26 January 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

It is pretty bad. I created an alt account for beta testing cause I want to see what CW is like for new players. With my trial mechs I lose 90% of the time , the rate is higher against premade 12 mans. I make only 30000 c bills a match. New players have no incentive to stick around with the pug stomping and long waits for matches

The issue is trial mechs. Specifically IS trial mechs. I would always run a clan trial deck as a new player to even have a chance.

Again CW was meant to be the end game content for those who want to add more to the MWO experience and to face like minded 12 mans.

[Leggin Ho]

More new maps and some balancing of some of the mechs would make it alot more enjoyable in the short term, to me the maps are almost a bigger issue, it's easy to set up for a drop when there are only two maps, just flip a coin. More maps and some slight mech tweeking please PGI.

[Nori Silverrage]

Tarogato, on 26 January 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Teamwork is OP, not the TDR-9S. That Thunderbolt build does one thing well: long range snipe. Sure, it can actually brawl, but it's not kitted out explicitly for that, so you have to understand that it is easy to counter by playing to its weaknesses.

Sorry, but that is bull. I have tried in many mechs to engage the 9S, pretty much solo, at all engagement ranges. While it may not have the brawl of a SRM18 build, or a AC20, it is pretty damn close and has no ammo restrictions. A halfway decent pilot will not be missing much against mediums and above at 500m or less with this mech. And if push comes to shove, just alpha 3 times before you overheat, that should be enough to kill most mechs.

This mech's quirks are broken plain and simple. If the quirks were for ERLL it would be a little over the top still, but at least it would be manageable. With the exception of some very hardpoint limited mechs nothing should get a 50% heat reduction, especially on a PPD energy weapon.

[Ghoster_Prime]

Nori Silverrage, on 26 January 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Sorry, but that is bull. I have tried in many mechs to engage the 9S, pretty much solo, at all engagement ranges. While it may not have the brawl of a SRM18 build, or a AC20, it is pretty damn close and has no ammo restrictions. A halfway decent pilot will not be missing much against mediums and above at 500m or less with this mech. And if push comes to shove, just alpha 3 times before you overheat, that should be enough to kill most mechs.

This mech's quirks are broken plain and simple. If the quirks were for ERLL it would be a little over the top still, but at least it would be manageable. With the exception of some very hardpoint limited mechs nothing should get a 50% heat reduction, especially on a PPD energy weapon.

this! <3

If this build wasn't so damn OP it wouldn't be so commonly overused. Now it's just a bread and butter in every match in 12 man teams. It even more undermines the sense of casuals vs pre-mades matches.

The core of the problem is not the fact, that when playing as randoms vs tryhards you statistically lose more than win, beacuse it's somehow understandable (communication, coordination and training vs lack of those) BUT: it's the WAY in which you lose. It's this "gg close lol" factor which makes it so frustrating. If you lose battle in fair fight you somehow feel almost good about it. If you lose in "gg close lol" mode, roflstomped by some abused builds almost every single time, you're just utterly annoyed and frustrated. And it discourages you from trying CW as casual player more and more.

Guys, I know the long developement perspective for CW is important, but short-term problems should be dealt with as well, because you don't simply want to discourage casual players from fuelling CW with participance. Especially when it's clearly stated that solo players are crucial for matchmaker to run matches. You don't want them to be "those" suckers that are just needed to go into the game, get dropped against meta-abusive 12-man team and get stomped.

How would anyone enjoy this? Every normal player (not masochist) will simply choose PUG.

Edited by Duszanovsky, 26 January 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Davers]

Kjudoon, on 26 January 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

I think I'm going to point out two things that go to the heart of what the OP is disappointed with.

1. CW is not even here yet. (More on this advanced version of "It's Beta" point in a moment.)
2. What we have is an expanded version of what we always had, and that's nothing new.

To the first point, yes it's beta, but really it's barely an Alpha release. Why do I say that? Simple, Community Warfare is a new game to be layered on TOP of what is currently being called CW. A warfare simulator that Mechwarrior, or more appropriately Battletech level is a game more in the form of Master of Orion than Mech of Doody. We've got Mech of Doody right now, and just have added a few new features to it, but this is not a 'war'. No it's a string of battles with a leader board. That's all well and good. Necessary development and that, but this is like JRR Tolkien releasing the Lord of the Rings like Charles Dickens releasing his novels, serialized, chapter by chapter in a newspaper! (Bleak House and David Copperfield, check them and their history out).

What this means is that CW is really just Phase 3. A new game that is gathering info and yet to be (potentially) started, integrated and released to the public. Taking planets has no meaning save what we artificially give it in the forums. Heck, what's going ON in the forums with it's ceasefires, gentleman's agreements, complaints about the algorithym and other various and sundry fan creations is it. And to be honest... that ain't much.

Of course, this cannot stand or stay. PGI really needs to realize (which giving them credit for being smart cookies... I know I know, you may disagree, but shush...), which they probably have, is that they are writing a new game to make all these big cool respawn battles part of. Really, what we're doing right now is the mechanics of the moves of a giant game of Master of Orion or Risk or Axis and Allies. That's the next level of this game. To play at the Commander level where you and your unit, and even your mechs become assets on the map. This is not the same sexy game you've been playing. It's what gives all the sexy battles meaning. Giving battles meaning takes this game from being silly sci fi fluff with no value or ability to transcend the genre to something epic and genre defining.

But right now, as I fold into point 2, is we now just have added features, new maps and a leader board with a map, new control over who we fight and how we fight. That is all we have right now. I'm not saying what we have is bad, or criticising it because all these things are neccessary for point 1. We absolutely DO need this work done and worked out before Phase 3 of CW is implemented. Otherwise it will crash and burn so hard... yeah.... it'd be bad.

The only thing that has me truly worried is that PGI does not realize this is what they've done to themselves and that they need to create, almost from ground up, a new game of economics, logistics, interpersonal relationships and data manipulation so big... even Sid Meiers might cringe.

So, keep that in mind, and enjoy what we do have. Look past what is there and see what needs to come, and hope to see those sails on the horizon soon, heralding its arrival to come. I know I am.

I'm gonna stop this right here. All this 'Alpha' talk. It's the exact same crap players spouted in Closed Beta. "Don't worry guys, all this is just a placeholder. When we get the real thing, it's gonna be great!" But what did we get? They took the Beta tag off and it was considered Launched. (I am not talking necessarily about game balance, just as to the content/game modes.)

This is not an Alpha. This is not some kind of 'proof of concept'. Welcome to CW. It will never be 'Axis and Allies in space'. At no time did PGI say they would hand over faction control to the players. There will never be the level of detail that is commonly found in player made leagues. This is Beta- we are merely working out the kinks in the system- there will be no new system to replace this one. This is a generic CW for the masses.

[Kjudoon]

Davers, on 26 January 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

I'm gonna stop this right here. All this 'Alpha' talk. It's the exact same crap players spouted in Closed Beta. "Don't worry guys, all this is just a placeholder. When we get the real thing, it's gonna be great!" But what did we get? They took the Beta tag off and it was considered Launched. (I am not talking necessarily about game balance, just as to the content/game modes.)

This is not an Alpha. This is not some kind of 'proof of concept'. Welcome to CW. It will never be 'Axis and Allies in space'. At no time did PGI say they would hand over faction control to the players. There will never be the level of detail that is commonly found in player made leagues. This is Beta- we are merely working out the kinks in the system- there will be no new system to replace this one. This is a generic CW for the masses.

>cough< Phase 3: Logistics >cough<

[Davers]

Kjudoon, on 26 January 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

>cough< Phase 3: Logistics >cough<

*cough* Will not be what you are imagining it to be. *cough*

[Kjudoon]

Davers, on 26 January 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

*cough* Will not be what you are imagining it to be. *cough*

nothing has been so far, except most of my dire predictions on player behavior.

My gawd... I'm turning into Roadbeer!

[Yokaiko]

Duszanovsky, on 26 January 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

My first post here.

I was pretty enthusiastic about CW launching, it really appeared to be a long time missing element of MWO experience. I've invested a lot of time and c-bills for making an optimal clan drop deck, that suits my playstyle and that contributes to winning battles.

It was fun at the beginning, matches seemed to vary, there were some different scenarios of how the battle could go.

Thing is, CW has become nightmarish. It is now dominated by IS 12-man stompers, focused on overusing PPC TDR-9 builds. It's simply ridiculous. Every game the scenario for 12 mans against randoms makes it unplayable. On the "cold" map any random team attacking is just sniped from a distance and killed by organized push, up to the point of spawn killing. Really? Is this the way you want to almost every match to be played out in 12-man against random scenario? This was to be intended CW experience for casual CW players? You're on a best way to even more shrink the player base for CW.

How can someone not notice that TDR-9 is completely OP when used in 12 man scenario? It's just a long range damage spamming mode that almost cannot be countered by casuals. Especially on the map which allows you to see the spawn point from a veryyyyyyy far distance, and create a firing line that chokes enemy reinforcements to death.

Either PGI does something with it (splitting queues for teams and pugs/rebalances decks) or I'll just simply resign from ANY CW activity. It will slowly but surely make CW a mode for 12 man try-hards with meta-builds.

Maybe this is what it was supposed to be. But then....why enabling solo players drop into matches?

This is just utter crap. Sorry.

In something like 100 drops from solo to 12 man and everything in the middle I have NEVER seen this 12 man thud -9S wave.

.....not once, not when we are IS, not when we are clan.

Never.

Hell for that matter 12 mans are relatively rare, in the 7-8 drops I did last night I saw a 10 man. Just once. I'd say the rate of getting a full twelver is something like one and twenty.


SOOOOO either people are being overly dramatic, or they simply have the worst luck ever.