164 replies to this topic

[Commander A9]

Speaking of C-Bill generation, what's the point of units having a unit fund if we can't spend it on anything?

[Dracol]

CutterWolf, on 29 January 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

If you going to try to troll take it somewhere else. If you have a point lets see it? What you keep missing here is that "You" are a Merc not a Clan so your "Merc" slapping on CGB avatar and then hitting another Clan does not constitute "Clan vs Clan" combat.

One of the main topics of discussion is whether or not Clan v Clan Community Warfare, as it is in the game now, should even be allowed. Those who back the lore stance are pleading their case to PGI to remove the ability for Clans to attack another Clan world. At the very least, allow units within the faction to craft ceasefires that removes the ability for a Clan member to participate in Clan v Clan combat.

My comment, "Ignoring the major Plot point in the Lore is ok, since it allows you to continue to fight the battles you want, but ignoring the lore (Clan v Clan CW) that allows more variety of game modes for the general populace is not ok. " refers to that major argument and goes beyond just mercs.

CutterWolf, on 29 January 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

How is CW any different than what we had prior to it? What? you can drop with 4 different mechs on the same map. Ok no problem lets just get PGI to put all the maps in the rotation and allow you to drop 4 time on each one, done. Now lets tell everyone here to disband from all IS House and Clans and we will go ahead and rename MWO to Merc Warrior online and we can all just play Merc's and not have to deal with any of this........

First off, did you ever notice this websites address? mwoMERCS.com... just wanted to point that out, but has little to do with my case.

Back on to my case... What happens when a faction gets to Terra? Not talking in lore... in game?....nothing.

What does everyone see when they click on the faction tab? The size of each faction. The reality of this game is each faction is fighting for the biggest slice of the pie. If that type of recognition is what motivates you, then a loyalist commitment is right up your alley.

But not everyone works that way. There are those who are willing to work with other units to advance their faction's ultimate goal to have the biggest chunk of the faction map showing their colors.

And there are those in both Clan and IS Houses that are willing to work with those units to further expand their share of the pie.

One way to curb those units utilizing mercs to their advantage would be to remove the ability for Mercs to take contracts with the Clans.......

Commander A9, on 29 January 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Speaking of C-Bill generation, what's the point of units having a unit fund if we can't spend it on anything?

Phase 3 of Community Warfare

Edited by Dracol, 29 January 2015 - 03:40 PM.

[Nemesis Duck]

You can probably minimize abuse/exploits and create some accountability behind actions if only the unit leaders are able to create the contracts.

[Vlad Ward]

Assmodeus, on 29 January 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

You can probably minimize abuse/exploits and create some accountability behind actions if only the unit leaders are able to create the contracts.

Because being a unit leader requires a whole lot of credibility, right?

[StalaggtIKE]

Both are some great ideas:

Big Tin Man, on 28 January 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

A big picture vision for CW:

1. Permanent contracts become the 'house' units. These house units have their coffers funded by the faction's military expense budget (function of overall faction territory held and unit size vs. # of perm. unit members), but do not receive any c-bill bonus for a win or loss, as controlling territory should be bonus enough. The house unit coffers are then used to issue contracts to merc groups, as issued by the house unit leaders. Probably need to make contract issuing a LV 10+ ability in order to keep people from spamming accounts and creating 1 person perm. units.

2. Contracts issued by house units are limited in supply and scope, and are paid from the unit's coffers. Example: my house unit could issue three 14 day contracts to solely attack Kurita for a merc unit with group size of 25-50, with victories paying out at 100k cbills per mechwarrior, 5 million bonus to the merc unit coffers per planet taken with their tag on it, and a termination clause if they earn over 100 million c-bills before the 14 days are up (i.e. they broke the bank). Further you could add an 'average loyalty point' requirement for their members or cannot have taken a ____ faction contract in the last XX days, to keep the mercs who were just fighting us from switching sides when a contract is issued to stop them. Once the merc units took the contracts, they're gone. To keep mercs circulating, there would be an always available base contract similar to what currently exists (with same weak payout) but it does not escalate. If the house units refuse to spend their coffer funds while their faction dies, that's their call.

3. Logistics and planetary repair/reparations would need to be fully implemented for this to work and maintain balance, to keep the strong from getting stronger. There would need to be a throttle built into the military expense budget to keep a faction from wiping the maps. Whether that is that taken planets are a cost to the overall faction military budget until they are held for a week, distance from the capital diminishes value of planet, or losing territory triggers the house leaders to increase military spending in a frantic short term effort to stem the tide, IDK. Logistics would be necessary to keep the merc unit's coffers in check as well.

4. There would need to be further balancing and control on what the house unit coffers can be spent on. There would need to be a salary for the unit members, upgrades to turrets, dropship weapons, etc. This would take some more thinking to prevent abuse. Perhaps the unit could buy mechs as dropship specific mechs owned by the unit, but this would likely be very complex to implement.

sabujo, on 28 January 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

I subscribe to some of the good ideas that were already posted here so I am sorry if I am repeating something, but here's the backbone of my vision for the economy of CW:

• Loyalists (faction aligned/perma contract) and Mercs are two different games with different rules, perks and cons
  
• Only loyalists can put their tags on planets and get benefit from that
  
• Planets generate c-bills for that unit coffers at each ceasefire
  
• Loyalists put up contracts for a specific planet, letting mercs to bid on that. Units with altruistic players (more coffer donations) gain an advantage as they can pay more to mercs.
  
• Mercs get c-bills (for coffer and for players) according to what loyalists pay plus a flat rate
  
• Mercs also get achievements or history record for their deeds. This history allows loyalists to chose one merc unit over the rest.
  
• Planets give loyalists special prices on mechs, weapons, modules, etc. This benefit can be extended to a contracted merc if it is part of the contract.

Now, on a more future phase, coffer c-bills could be used in the following process:

• CW Maps have hardpoints. Those hardpoints can be filled with turrets, barriers, traps, etc...
  
• The unit that has the planet may invest on it's defense, buying or upgrading that defense. Make it better turrets, generators that are more robust, etc. Money invested on defense is money that does not go to merc contracts.
  
• Map upgrades are bought and remain there until planet flips (meaning everything was destroyed and needs to be rebuilt).
  
• Mercs can use coffer c-bills to re-fit their dropships, upgrading them or access different kinds of battle enhancements.

How about that?

[Gyrok]

Vlad Ward, on 29 January 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Because being a unit leader requires a whole lot of credibility, right?

If you also require a faction loyalty rank of...say...10 or so...that does now lend credibility...

[Vlad Ward]

Gyrok, on 29 January 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

If you also require a faction loyalty rank of...say...10 or so...that does now lend credibility...

Not really. It lends "This guy played the game a bit". Even I have Rank 10 CSJ and I've been a merc there for... 2 weeks? 2 weeks.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 29 January 2015 - 05:09 PM.

[Gyrok]

Dracol, on 29 January 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

One of the main topics of discussion is whether or not Clan v Clan Community Warfare, as it is in the game now, should even be allowed. Those who back the lore stance are pleading their case to PGI to remove the ability for Clans to attack another Clan world. At the very least, allow units within the faction to craft ceasefires that removes the ability for a Clan member to participate in Clan v Clan combat.

My comment, "Ignoring the major Plot point in the Lore is ok, since it allows you to continue to fight the battles you want, but ignoring the lore (Clan v Clan CW) that allows more variety of game modes for the general populace is not ok. " refers to that major argument and goes beyond just mercs.


First off, did you ever notice this websites address? mwoMERCS.com... just wanted to point that out, but has little to do with my case.

Back on to my case... What happens when a faction gets to Terra? Not talking in lore... in game?....nothing.

What does everyone see when they click on the faction tab? The size of each faction. The reality of this game is each faction is fighting for the biggest slice of the pie. If that type of recognition is what motivates you, then a loyalist commitment is right up your alley.

But not everyone works that way. There are those who are willing to work with other units to advance their faction's ultimate goal to have the biggest chunk of the faction map showing their colors.

And there are those in both Clan and IS Houses that are willing to work with those units to further expand their share of the pie.

One way to curb those units utilizing mercs to their advantage would be to remove the ability for Mercs to take contracts with the Clans.......


Phase 3 of Community Warfare

Let me elaborate, since you glossed over a key part.

A unit can put a contract out against another clan if they want to do so. No one is stopping that with my proposals. The question is whether a loyalist unit wants to do so...

[CutterWolf]

Dracol, on 29 January 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

One of the main topics of discussion is whether or not Clan v Clan Community Warfare, as it is in the game now, should even be allowed. Those who back the lore stance are pleading their case to PGI to remove the ability for Clans to attack another Clan world. At the very least, allow units within the faction to craft ceasefires that removes the ability for a Clan member to participate in Clan v Clan combat.

My comment, "Ignoring the major Plot point in the Lore is ok, since it allows you to continue to fight the battles you want, but ignoring the lore (Clan v Clan CW) that allows more variety of game modes for the general populace is not ok. " refers to that major argument and goes beyond just mercs.


First off, did you ever notice this websites address? mwoMERCS.com... just wanted to point that out, but has little to do with my case.

Back on to my case... What happens when a faction gets to Terra? Not talking in lore... in game?....nothing.

What does everyone see when they click on the faction tab? The size of each faction. The reality of this game is each faction is fighting for the biggest slice of the pie. If that type of recognition is what motivates you, then a loyalist commitment is right up your alley.

But not everyone works that way. There are those who are willing to work with other units to advance their faction's ultimate goal to have the biggest chunk of the faction map showing their colors.

And there are those in both Clan and IS Houses that are willing to work with those units to further expand their share of the pie.

One way to curb those units utilizing mercs to their advantage would be to remove the ability for Mercs to take contracts with the Clans.......


Phase 3 of Community Warfare

Now that I have you looking at the big picture what do lines on the star map mean at this point when one unit type is totally free to go anywhere they like every week and others can not? Answer: They mean nothing. There is no pie because no matter how many planets you own they have no value in game at all other than a color on a map. This is our whole issue, this is the fatal flaw in CW. "With out some kind of monetary and tactical value planets and territory mean nothing and without that key element you do not and a CW game. I for one want something much more than what we have now and I want to know what plans does PGI have for CW? Whats the main goal? What is the projected time line to reach that goal? And I want to know what they can "really do" with the current skill sets they have now and the limitations of the game engine. Other wise why would anyone want to waste more money and time if CW is nothing more than a pub Q that you get to take 4 mechs into instead of one.............

Edited by CutterWolf, 29 January 2015 - 05:37 PM.

[Dracol]

Gyrok, on 29 January 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

Let me elaborate, since you glossed over a key part.

A unit can put a contract out against another clan if they want to do so. No one is stopping that with my proposals. The question is whether a loyalist unit wants to do so...

So, you relenting on preventing Clans from hiring mercs with that system?

[Alexander Steel]

Gyrok, on 29 January 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Actually...we are following Lore regarding Clans versus Clans. As there was no Clans versus Clans until the refusal war 8 years from now in 3058. We would be ignoring the invasion paths minutia, and Clans now have the same goal they did then...so it would really only be finite details being ignored...say Wolf takes a certain world instead of CGB or CGB takes a world that CSJ originally took, etc. That is fine, and who knows...perhaps something like Tukkayid plays out...?

The Great Refusal War starts in 3057.

Khan Natasha Kerensky is killed fighting the Falcons on Dec 7, 3057.

The final Battles happen in 3058 when CWI joins up with the Kell Hounds to crush the Falcons chasing them.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Refusal_War

The other thing of note in 3057? The first time since the start of the Clan Invasion that IS Powers waged war on each other.

[Lyoto Machida]

Yoseful Mallad, on 28 January 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

fine, than the system needs to be more robust and needs to be able to recognize when it should or can pay out more when or if needed and should be able to recognize when there are to many Merc units fighting for an one house and adjust contracts and bonuses on its own, without PGI having to do it all the time to force people to move to where the help is needed.

The current system now is broken and when one house is really needing Merc help and player base is down, PGI raises the contract pay out and almost everyone shifts and balance is still not right.

agreed. But as I said, PGI needs to put a system into lace that does this on its own.

Into lace, you say?

[Gyrok]

Dracol, on 29 January 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

So, you relenting on preventing Clans from hiring mercs with that system?

Clans can bid to clan loyalists (daggerstars)...which would essentially be a sort of mercs for the Clans.

Edited by Gyrok, 29 January 2015 - 07:30 PM.

[Alexander Steel]

Gyrok, on 29 January 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Clans can bid to clan loyalists (daggerstars)...which would essentially be a sort of mercs for the Clans.

So yeah. You couldn't be a merc for a clan and then later an IS power.

[Gyrok]

Alexander Steel, on 29 January 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

So yeah. You couldn't be a merc for a clan and then later an IS power.

If Mercenaries and Daggerstars are switchable factions for those units...then why not? Just LP rewards would remain separated by factions as now.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vlad Ward, on 29 January 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Because being a unit leader requires a whole lot of credibility, right?

Well if the leader is a self serving Jerk...How many players would stay in his group?

[Lily from animove]

The first thing is you need to understand why mercs are doing what they do. otherwise you will not create incentives they want and get hooked by this bait motivated by this feature.

[HarlekinEO]

When it becomes more profitable being a Merc then playing in a house unit, then almost everyone (besides the roleplayers) will become a Merc unit.
Even the fact, the Merc units are currently larger then house units is embarrassing.

If you want a better payment, then house units (which is quite logical), then House units need access to House Tech (prototype Mechs, higher Technology (DHS instead SHS, Light PPC etcpp). But due to the current business concept of PGI, this wont happen.

Edited by HarlekinEO, 30 January 2015 - 05:09 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

Actually under the current system EVERYBODY is a merc, some just are Mercs who have pledged themselves to just one house. This actually happens in the Lore.

[Grynos]

Grynos, on 30 January 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

We know that Merc units are a major contributing factor in which factions/clans advance their planetary advances. I will say that from the Liao/Davion front I have seen it from both ends, as it stands right now , Davion does not have the majority of Merc Units that they had previously as well as Liao getting some help from Merc units recently. The real issue here is that the reason why the Merc Units are shifting from place to place with frequency. As it stands currently , it is better to be a Merc than a loyalist, especially when the rewards come out in CW... The best way to solve this issue , is to put Merc units on the same playing field as every other loyalist. Give them their own personal reputation, the LP they get from factions/clans would contribute to their own personal faction called "Mercs" . They would still be able to move around , but their matches would only contribute to their own faction.
With that done, then we can move onto how to stabilize the population imbalances that occur somewhat because of these Merc units.
This system is not as easy as the last but would solve some issues. PGI needs to create a algorithm , that calculates the population of a faction/clan and adjusts the payout based on the amount of population in said faction/clan...

But wait we already have that you say....

My system uses the one we have as well as one we do not. For loyalist units, there will not be much difference, other than breaking you loyalist contract will be more expensive, also if you break a loyalist contract and choose a different faction/clan to be a loyalist for you would have to pay your way in via c-bills. The prices for that would be determined by population of the new faction/clan..

Now for Merc units, your pay is directly tied to the population of a faction/clan currently. Here is an example..
We have 3 Merc units.. Alpha,Bravo Charlie. Alpha and Bravo have roughly 12-36 members, while Charlie has 60+ . Now they all have fulfilled their previous contracts. Alpha decides it is going to go back to Davion , looking at the contract it reveals that Davion is currently low on overall percentage population in MWO, taking the contract would benefit them by giving the Merc unit 125% LP and 125% c-bills of that factions current LP and C-bill payouts.. They decide to tell Bravo about it, but because of the shift of Alpha unit to Davion , when Bravo looks at the contract , taking the contract would give the Bravo unit only 105% LP and c-bill payout for the contract.... Charlie looks at the contract for Davion and sees that they would only get a 30% LP and c-bill payout, but then looks at Liao and sees that due to the changing populations, they would get 115% LP and c-bill payout from joining them..

In closing make Merc units actually have to shop around for the best deals, while penalizing Merc units that decide to flood a faction. That way population can be a little more regulated without having to put any hard population caps on anything.