254 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

I'd rather they just close the lanes off from each other, open the bases more, and and drop each attack lance in a different lane.

splits up the death ball, forces the enemy to spread out, and with more open bases it would discourage death balling and more strategy.

[Mister Blastman]

The lane concept is stupid. I grew up playing videogames in the 80s where we had to use our heads to figure things out. I don't need to be guided along a path with arrows and instructions.

[Deathlike]

Mister Blastman, on 03 February 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

The lane concept is stupid. I grew up playing videogames in the 80s where we had to use our heads to figure things out. I don't need to be guided along a path with arrows and instructions.

If Betty could say the darnedest things, this would be true:

"Brain offline. All systems laughable."

[Brody319]

Mister Blastman, on 03 February 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

The lane concept is stupid. I grew up playing videogames in the 80s where we had to use our heads to figure things out. I don't need to be guided along a path with arrows and instructions.

yea was real hard...you know...moving to the right....
and all those game guides....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brody319, on 03 February 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

yea was real hard...you know...moving to the right....
and all those game guides....

Silly hyperbole, you have obviously never tried to play Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde for the NES back in the days you learned how to play games through trial and error (ie the hard and often frustrating way).

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 03 February 2015 - 09:20 PM.

[Brody319]

WM Quicksilver, on 03 February 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

Silly strawman, you have obviously never tried to play Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde for the NES back in the days you learned how to play games through trial and error (ie the hard and often frustrating way).

Oh I thought we were talking about good games. my bad.
still had the booklet telling you how to play and often times acting as a psudo-game guide. just now that information has moved into the game, and people are pissed they can't just ignore it by avoiding the instruction manual.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brody319, on 03 February 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

Oh I thought we were talking about good games. my bad.
still had the booklet telling you how to play and often times acting as a psudo-game guide. just now that information has moved into the game, and people are pissed they can't just ignore it by avoiding the instruction manual.

Nice try, he said nothing about good games, just games from yore.
As for the booklets, I'm pretty sure those booklets were often misleading or lacked key information on mechanics or explanation of what buttons do what.
Not sure where you got the idea that people are just mad they have moved manuals into the game (though there is a good reason not to do this).

I feel you need to watch this:

[Brody319]

WM Quicksilver, on 03 February 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

Nice try, he said nothing about good games, just games from yore.
As for the booklets, I'm pretty sure those booklets were often misleading or lacked key information on mechanics or explanation of what buttons do what.
Not sure where you got the idea that people are just mad they have moved manuals into the game (though there is a good reason not to do this).

I feel you need to watch this:

because just telling people what button to push is such a burden on everyone. I don't wanna learn how to play the game, I wanna figure it out myself!

Watch some game grumps when they play a game neither knows how to play. They skip the tutorials or any explanations and then get lost for an hour and shout that the game is "******* bullshit and ******" because they refused to pay attention.

I doubt any game booklet left out any important information about controls concidering the thing has what, 6 buttons total?

Also Doctor Jeckel and Mr.Hyde still requires you to move to the right to win.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brody319, on 03 February 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

I doubt any game booklet left out any important information about controls concidering the thing has what, 6 buttons total?

Also Doctor Jeckel and Mr.Hyde still requires you to move to the right to win.

These are two hyperbolic statements you use for your argument right here.

• That buttons can only do 1 thing, and that the effect of these buttons and there use is immediately noticeable.
  
• That every winning strategy boils down to one thing, moving right.

If you are going to give an argument, at least try not to base it on hyperbole and strawmen.



Back on topic though, the DotA style maps of MWO have always been disappointing and formulaic. I would love to see maps with multiple strategic positions as well as semi-varied terrain to allow for different strategies to unfold. Though I would love to see something added that MW4 couldn't do, more dynamic environments; the fog of frozen city is cool and all, but affects the whole map and can be worked around using thermal. Maps need more random elements to spice up gameplay, and definitely need to be bigger to emphasize scouting.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 03 February 2015 - 09:45 PM.

[Escef]

Why would you set up your assets in an area where you could not easily control access to them? Bunch of little Napoleons and Sun-Tzu's here aren't happy unless the other side is set up like they have brain damage so that the little generals can prove how great they are by defeating an opponent that has ceded all tactical advantage.

[Brody319]

WM Quicksilver, on 03 February 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

These are two hyperbolic statements you use for your argument right here.

• That buttons can only do 1 thing, and that the effect of these buttons and there use is immediately noticeable.
  
• That every winning strategy boils down to one thing, moving right.

If you are going to give an argument, at least try not to base it on hyperbole and strawmen.

All I am saying is people will ***** about having to figure games out now, and having the game explain the ideas and principles of the game.
Even this have stated they want a tutorial for new people so they can learn about the game. and I'm sure some of those people will say new games should teach players like the old ones do.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brody319, on 03 February 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

All I am saying is people will ***** about having to figure games out now, and having the game explain the ideas and principles of the game.
Even this have stated they want a tutorial for new people so they can learn about the game. and I'm sure some of those people will say new games should teach players like the old ones do.

Again this is a bit of a strawmen, there is a statement that exemplifies the difference between bad tutorials and good/acceptable tutorials, "Show, don't tell." That phrase goes further than tutorials, but I digress. A lot of game violate that and is what most old school gamers dislike. I don't know of many that complain about Mega Man X's intro stage though.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 03 February 2015 - 10:05 PM.

[Tony Benoit]

Brody319, on 03 February 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

All I am saying is people will ***** about having to figure games out now, and having the game explain the ideas and principles of the game.
Even this have stated they want a tutorial for new people so they can learn about the game. and I'm sure some of those people will say new games should teach players like the old ones do.

The problem isn't that the game is hard to learn, but there is no way in game to learn.

NES days, you could just trial and error. Here in MW:O's environment, you need to at least understand the bare basics of the game to even play it properly. Lack of tutorials is another issues entirely and another topic, stick to the maps and lack of good ones (mostly) in this thread please.

[pbiggz]

pbiggz, on 03 February 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

The primary issue with this map is simple. The area in the yellow square, is the ONLY PLACE you see combat, while the area in the purple square rarely sees combat at all, save for the end of games in which pugs have been extra-rolled. Same with Boreal Vault, same with Helbore Springs. Such a massive swathe of the map is rendered nothing more than a time delay for the attacking team. Why design all that space if you wont even use it, it looks marvelous on the new map and its a ******* shame it goes to waste.



Not meant to be a be-all-end-all map, but just an example of how simple it could be to make a more interesting CW map. Take note, although there are gates that serve as moderate choke points, there are no LANES and there are plenty of options inside the base as well as outside for cover from fire and stealth.This ENTIRE map has strategic value, not just the gates as choke points. If you wanted to attack the south gate you could circle wide around and the buildings would give you cover, if you wanted to attack the north gate AND west gate you could split your forces under the cover of the cliffs. If you wanted to attrition you could use the river and lake to help you cool down, its these sorts of things that make the outside of the base far more interesting, and once inside, its not merely choke points.

The c3 gate in Helbore springs is awesome, it has lots of places where attackers and defenders alike can circle around and hit you from the rear, while the G3 gate has no such thing, and is just a bottleneck for lurm boats and snipers. Let the inside of the base be a place for pure brawling, where the defenders and attackers can both use narrow streets or passes that circle around one another to try to get the advantage on their opponents. Highlander's frustration comes purely from the map being so much less than it could be.

discuss this more

[Vassago Rain]

Welcome to december 2014.

[Sarlic]

pbiggz, on 03 February 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

The primary issue with this map is simple. The area in the yellow square, is the ONLY PLACE you see combat, while the area in the purple square rarely sees combat at all, save for the end of games in which pugs have been extra-rolled. Same with Boreal Vault, same with Helbore Springs. Such a massive swathe of the map is rendered nothing more than a time delay for the attacking team. Why design all that space if you wont even use it, it looks marvelous on the new map and its a ******* shame it goes to waste.



Not meant to be a be-all-end-all map, but just an example of how simple it could be to make a more interesting CW map. Take note, although there are gates that serve as moderate choke points, there are no LANES and there are plenty of options inside the base as well as outside for cover from fire and stealth.This ENTIRE map has strategic value, not just the gates as choke points. If you wanted to attack the south gate you could circle wide around and the buildings would give you cover, if you wanted to attack the north gate AND west gate you could split your forces under the cover of the cliffs. If you wanted to attrition you could use the river and lake to help you cool down, its these sorts of things that make the outside of the base far more interesting, and once inside, its not merely choke points.

The c3 gate in Helbore springs is awesome, it has lots of places where attackers and defenders alike can circle around and hit you from the rear, while the G3 gate has no such thing, and is just a bottleneck for lurm boats and snipers. Let the inside of the base be a place for pure brawling, where the defenders and attackers can both use narrow streets or passes that circle around one another to try to get the advantage on their opponents. Highlander's frustration comes purely from the map being so much less than it could be.

This looks good. I am excited.

I haven't even touched CW yet. Because i knew i would be dissappointed. The only thing i can hope for is that map design needs to be overhauled. As with the system.

I want the community gets involved with map making. That's all i ask. People have been asking for years. No more generators, but multiple gates. Or better said: more strategic thinking.

Edited by Sarlic, 03 February 2015 - 10:15 PM.

[Brody319]

NotMwHighlander, on 03 February 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

The problem isn't that the game is hard to learn, but there is no way in game to learn.

NES days, you could just trial and error. Here in MW:O's environment, you need to at least understand the bare basics of the game to even play it properly. Lack of tutorials is another issues entirely and another topic, stick to the maps and lack of good ones (mostly) in this thread please.

exactly. you could get away with trial and error because the games were simple.
jump, shoot, move. nothing that complex. and you have a few buttons and can try all the combinations rather quickly and easily.

Now you have like 20 buttons on a console, have to work in 3D, people expect more complex ideas. You cannot teach people the same way as you did in the past, that is what I am trying to argue, that older games were not the peak. tutorials aren't that big of a deal!


I made my points about the maps already, so I'm done for now.

[Rina Fujimoto]

It only took you guys 3 YEARS TO NOTICE SOMETHING I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS.

EVERY MAP IS AN EARTH BOWL/IMPASSABLE BARRIER COMBO WITH 3 LANES.

RIVER CITY: EARTH BOWL/OCEAN, 3 LANES
CAUSTIC: EARTH BOWL/MOUNTAIN, 3 LANES
FOREST COLONY: EARTH BOWL/OCEAN, 3 LANES
CRIMSON: EARTH BOWL/OCEAN, 3 LANES

ETC ETC.

The only sort of unique map is Frozen City and even then only because instead of a flat out earth bowl there's the giant ice crevasse cutting through the center. The extra large maps like Alpine and Desert are just jumbo sized earth bowls with wider lanes.

Don't even get me started on Canyon, I ******* hate Canyon with such an intense burning passion, it is literally THE embodiment of everything that has been wrong with the map design in this game. It is LITERALLY, LITERALLY 3 LANES IN AN EARTH BOWL.

[Escef]

haruko, on 03 February 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

It only took you guys 3 YEARS TO NOTICE SOMETHING I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS.

EVERY MAP IS AN EARTH BOWL/IMPASSABLE BARRIER COMBO WITH 3 LANES.

RIVER CITY: EARTH BOWL/OCEAN, 3 LANES
CAUSTIC: EARTH BOWL/MOUNTAIN, 3 LANES
FOREST COLONY: EARTH BOWL/OCEAN, 3 LANES
CRIMSON: EARTH BOWL/OCEAN, 3 LANES

ETC ETC.

The only sort of unique map is Frozen City and even then only because instead of a flat out earth bowl there's the giant ice crevasse cutting through the center. The extra large maps like Alpine and Desert are just jumbo sized earth bowls with wider lanes.

Don't even get me started on Canyon, I ******* hate Canyon with such an intense burning passion, it is literally THE embodiment of everything that has been wrong with the map design in this game. It is LITERALLY, LITERALLY 3 LANES IN AN EARTH BOWL.

So, tell us how you really feel.

[pbiggz]

haruko, on 03 February 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

It only took you guys 3 YEARS TO NOTICE SOMETHING I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS.

EVERY MAP IS AN EARTH BOWL/IMPASSABLE BARRIER COMBO WITH 3 LANES.

RIVER CITY: EARTH BOWL/OCEAN, 3 LANES
CAUSTIC: EARTH BOWL/MOUNTAIN, 3 LANES
FOREST COLONY: EARTH BOWL/OCEAN, 3 LANES
CRIMSON: EARTH BOWL/OCEAN, 3 LANES

ETC ETC.

The only sort of unique map is Frozen City and even then only because instead of a flat out earth bowl there's the giant ice crevasse cutting through the center. The extra large maps like Alpine and Desert are just jumbo sized earth bowls with wider lanes.

Don't even get me started on Canyon, I ******* hate Canyon with such an intense burning passion, it is literally THE embodiment of everything that has been wrong with the map design in this game. It is LITERALLY, LITERALLY 3 LANES IN AN EARTH BOWL.

2*