233 replies to this topic

[nektu]

Camembert, on 29 June 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

All this dates back to the old Mechwarrior days when legging/heading was strong enough to be the only viable strategy if you had the aim to pull it off. Stats were usually based off of the board game without taking aim into account. Some objected because that didn't fit with the Battletech feel (since weapons can't be aimed that accurately in the board game). Some objected because they were (and are) whiny scrubs with poor aim who refuse to believe that their EPIC SKILLS can be beaten without CHEATING. Neither option is valid today. Designers are accounting for the former, and the latter was never valid to begin with.

In other words, any such honor code is profoundly laughable.

What he said. The OP should not talk about "honor" because legging/no legging has nothing to do with it. Originally it came down to bad game mechanics - which where then compensated for by introducing artifical rules. Hopefully in MWO there will be no need for stuff like that.



Oh, and nerds playing at being space-samurais of course

Camembert, on 29 June 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Oh, and calling it Bushido or space-Bushido is also laughable from a historical perspective. The Japanese came up with iaijutsu for a reason; the western concept of "fair fight" didn't exist for them.

And this. OP, you are basing your knowledge on "bushido" on bad, american, 80s-science fiction. Even you should realize how laughable this is.

Edited by nektu, 29 June 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[Beazle]

IMTatsu, on 29 June 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

There's been considerable activity in other forums, so I thought I'd bring it here.

From the beginning of time, in as much as it relates to us here, we have followed the Honor Code of mech combat, primarily defined as:
1. No Heading
2. No Legging
3. No Unnecessary Beatdown of an Incapacitated Foe.

With the potential massive influx of the new 'Pepsi Generation', they're understanding is 'Play to Win'. Every rule of warfare they've ever been subjected to up to this point is 'By Any Means Necessary'

Battletech purists would argue that the most effective method of mech combat completely contradicts the Honor Code we have traditionally clung to. If the game employs salvage rules, this is going to be an even more important topic.

Here it is gang. What do you think?

Ummm.... Who exactly held to this code of yours? Nobody I know.

Heading is great salvage.

Legging is easier than heading, and also good for salvage.

Shooting a downed foe is a no-no. That's my salvage your shooting at.....

[FireBerretta]

AceTimberwolf, on 29 June 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

If you are going to Role Play leave the "Bushido" Code of Honor to the Kuritans and the Combine. House Liao and the rest of the Capellans have no honor. By being of House Liao You are allowed to use every underhanded Tactic in the book

Slapshot, on 29 June 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

Yeah I was going to say, since when do Capellan's care about honor?

@ AceTimberwolf and Slapshot. Unfortunately it seems you have been playing with a different breed of Liao than I have if you perceive the Entire House as a Dishonorable. I have been a part of Liao in MPBT:Solaris (1996-1999), MPBT:3025 (as short lived as that was), and ISW (Inner Sphere Wars). The old timers from MPBT days know what honor is and have always upheld their honor in and off the battlefield. Sure we have some renegades..who doesn't? But to say Liao as a whole is dishonorable is neither fair nor is it accurate. I have seen enough of my old Pals here on the forums to know that "this" rendition of House Liao will be as honorable as any I have known. Before condemning us I would ask that you give House Liao some credit and a fair chance. <DB>

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Rorusbass, on 29 June 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Let's just keep it at: there's a reason it's a japanese word.

Axeactly, and it has nothing to do with or against "legging" or headcapping.
Not even the Clans are that strict, although they might perceive such actions as less honourable, they have no written code about it.

Quote

I mean I can get behind "don´t kick him when he´s down"

The Dictum, however, is quite clear about the matter.
"On Proper Behavior of the Warrior"
The proper business of the warrior is death. The warrior cannot enter a contest with any thoughta of his own survival. His only concern must be to destroy the enemy, or to die fighting.
"On Proper Behavior Towards Enemies"
The opposing fighter must be presumed to have the same code of death or victory as the Kurita warrior. It would be disrespectful of the enemy to hold him to a lesser standard than we hold for ourselves. In the face of the enemy, our objective is to destroy him utterly, and there must be no hesitation or lack of resolve in this regard. It is true that fighters from other Houses hold to weaker standards than do the warriors of House Kurita. Nevertheless, we deal with them in battle as we expect to be dealt with ourselves, even though they may not actually deserve this honour.
"On Accepting Surrender In Wartime"
Enemy fighters who offer to surrender on the field of battle either have no code of honour or else their code is completely unsuited to the situation. They should be killed immediately.
*snip*
To give death to enemy fighters in these situations is to give them honour that is appropriate to warriors, even though they may neither understand this honour nor deserve it.

Legging and headcapping are all perfectly valid.
As is shooting a 'mech that has fallen down.

Quote

The Japanese came up with iaijutsu for a reason

Axeactly.

[Blaze32]

They have it set up that legging means taking out both legs so that will take as long as destroying a center torso so who cares about legging and head shots will take 2 hits to kill (no matter how much damage) so it would be very hard to do with them moving and no alpha strikeing (even with 4 gauss) to the head will not one-shot a mech it has been programmed this way so all you get is overload in heat making it so the enemy you are fireing at can kill you...

I will try to not hit someone when they are down but if im about to die i will go down punching and shooting like most people would.

[fallonsky]

well ill take some idias from the clans. i will follow the code untill someone breaks it. then i will DFA him so i can then rip his head off as i leg him

[ObiKwiet]

"Fighting with Honor" seems to be a social tactic used by those with lots of time and resources to get everyone else to abide by an artificial set of rules that exaggerates their advantage. In other words, the elite establish social rules so that the only honorable way to fight is one which only a member of the elite could possibly win.

This would be a neat thing to simulate for an MMORPG. Playing dirty could give you an advantage, but close doors to advancement among noblity and force you to align with outlaws rebels or mercenaries. That'd be really neat in a game with dynamic political factions.

Unforuntatly in a TDM game like this, I think it's just going to be another thing for sore losers to whine about. Better to leave the role playing to the RPGs.

[wanderer]

FireBerretta, on 29 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

@ AceTimberwolf and Slapshot. Unfortunately it seems you have been playing with a different breed of Liao than I have if you perceive the Entire House as a Dishonorable. I have been a part of Liao in MPBT:Solaris (1996-1999), MPBT:3025 (as short lived as that was), and ISW (Inner Sphere Wars). The old timers from MPBT days know what honor is and have always upheld their honor in and off the battlefield. Sure we have some renegades..who doesn't? But to say Liao as a whole is dishonorable is neither fair nor is it accurate. I have seen enough of my old Pals here on the forums to know that "this" rendition of House Liao will be as honorable as any I have known. Before condemning us I would ask that you give House Liao some credit and a fair chance. <DB>

And I predate you being a Capellan from MBT: EGA on GEnie.

You do know we got sick and tired of the Davions zerging us (before "zerging" was a word) and proceeded to use a bug in the system to fly our 'Mechs (literally) over the Davion defenders and blow up their bases, thereby conquering the entire Davion territory down to the last planet (which was coded immune to conquest)? (We then politely told Keldon about the bug and had him fix it)

When you're outnumbered 3:1 or worse by House Mary Sue, you take the most effective means of victory and you use it. I fully expect to see Capellan lances of one scout and three LRM carriers who just set up a target from behind hills and rain death until their head pops from the barrages, snipers at 1200m gang-firing to one-shot legs or heads (or backs), and a wide variety of "Things that make you go FFFFFFU-".

The professional's honor is delivering success with the tools given. The Capellan "tradition" is to deal with opponents as a professional should, not whinging about "honor codes". Or, for the heavily RPing- "Success in the missions given to you by the Chancellor is the greatest honor a citizen can aspire to."

[Twisted Power]

Pretending there is an honor code in war of any kind is stupid.

[Thorn Hallis]

This whole "don't shoot the legs" is a relic from MW3, where killing a leg = killing the mech. It had no relevance in MW4, it wont have any in MWO.

And outside of Warrior House Fujita I see no place for Bushido within the CapCon (from a role playing point of view).

[Alizabeth Aijou]

fallonsky, on 29 June 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

well ill take some idias from the clans. i will follow the code untill someone breaks it. then i will DFA him so i can then rip his head off as i leg him

Like I said, clans have no qualms about legging either.
Things that Zellbrigen forbids:
Area of effect weapons/munitions.
Intentionally moving out of enemy Line of Sight.
Systems that require multiple 'Mechs to function (C3 computers, TAG, etc.).
Moving out of weapon's range.
Failure to fire a weapon when possible.

[Adridos]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 29 June 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Like I said, clans have no qualms about legging either.
Things that Zellbrigen forbids:
Area of effect weapons/munitions.
Intentionally moving out of enemy Line of Sight.
Systems that require multiple 'Mechs to function (C3 computers, TAG, etc.).
Moving out of weapon's range.
Failure to fire a weapon when possible.

Shhh...

As long as Clanners are too old to realise that, we have an advantage.

[Loose]

Charges Jenner Bravely into Fray

Severs Finger to Atone for Getting Cored Instantly

[MuffinTop]

Dear OP,

Where do you get the idea that Samauri, didn't decapitate or sweep the legs of their enemies,with their katanas? Please enlighten me as to where you get this information, or is this Bushido back to the future?

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

always act right by agreements made, or else your word is worthless and your reputation sour.

which is why winners always write history in their favor, after all- If a tree falls in the woods and only one person knows about it, then did it really happen if they say it didn't?

Kind of getting off on a tangent here but never underestimate the human capacity for deception. While we all strive "to do good", all of that goes out the window if it's not convenient. and this is why clanners go for cockpits when they're pushed to the line, even after all that honor bullshit

Edited by Battlecruiser, 29 June 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Chromoid]

Side Effects of encountering my Raven in an Atlas may include (but are not limited to):

- NARCs
- Swarms of missiles out of nowhere
- Panic
- Loss of mobility
- Headshots
- More missiles (out of nowhere)
- Frustration
- Cheap shots
- Overheating
- Excessive pummeling when knocked down
- Ragequitting

Edited by Chromoid, 29 June 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[CmdrSpider]

Fighting with honor sound good, but how could you ever truly enforce this. The problem is you and I agree to keep all our punches above the belt. Then you or I accidently drops a shot on the other guys leg and immediatley we are reduced to 10 year olds crying about how the kid isn't playing fair. The point is how would we know for sure? Fact is I'm fighting you I'm going to use what's ever legally usuable to beat you. Be it suprising you with an ambush, shooting you from behind, pushing you off a cliff if I can. You name it and I'll use it as an equalizer or to give me an advantage. Now if the game has a retreat feature and you asked me for mercy I would be honarable and allow you to leave the field of battle. But as long as your trying to take me out I'm going to do my best to return the favor.

Living the Victory,

CmdrSpider

[IMTatsu]

Jesus, folks. Thanks for the flamejob. I think you missed a spot . . . nope, you got that one too.

I merely posed the question because that is how it used to be done. Much better to have everything clarified now than to wonder about it later.

The terminology was used for the benefit of those who WEREN'T there. Little trouble spotting those, though.

Enjoy.

>:{

[Vandal]

It's not a flamewar to say, 'This post is dumb, here is why.'

[Tenrai]

William Tecumseh Sherman Quotes on War:

“An Army is a collection of armed men obliged to obey one man. Every change in the rules which impairs the principle weakens the army.”

“Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster.”

“I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell!”

“I would make this war as severe as possible, and show no symptoms of tiring till the South begs for mercy.”

Edited by Tenrai, 29 June 2012 - 05:12 PM.