233 replies to this topic

[Kenyon Burguess]

since your a different faction, i fully endorse your use of the bushido honor system

however i would think that the rest of the factions doing head shots, leggings, back attacks and 2vrs1 fights on you would get a bit tiring after a while. you might want to reconcider.

[Badfinger]

Head, Legs or Lug Nuts.. I don't care, I'm taking you down!

[Darq]

IMTatsu, on 29 June 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

There's been considerable activity in other forums, so I thought I'd bring it here.

From the beginning of time, in as much as it relates to us here, we have followed the Honor Code of mech combat, primarily defined as:
1. No Heading
2. No Legging
3. No Unnecessary Beatdown of an Incapacitated Foe.

With the potential massive influx of the new 'Pepsi Generation', they're understanding is 'Play to Win'. Every rule of warfare they've ever been subjected to up to this point is 'By Any Means Necessary'

Battletech purists would argue that the most effective method of mech combat completely contradicts the Honor Code we have traditionally clung to. If the game employs salvage rules, this is going to be an even more important topic.

Here it is gang. What do you think?

Noble sentiment, but I doubt it will be a realistic approach to the game. I might start by ammending this to be a Code of Honor Against Honorable Foes. I would also remove the notion of not attacking incapaciteated foes. I assume there will be a way to punch out or drop from the match. If HE (my target) consideres himself still in the match, then I should as well.

Keep in mind your code of honor will not just be a personnal one. You will impact your Lance mates as well; either by getting your *** shot off by a dishonorable curr and leaving them out gunned or more directly by letting go a foe that will be targeting them as soon as the heat they built up unloading on you and yours goes down.

[Tarl Cabot]

FireBerretta, on 30 June 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Excellent explaination Tarl! Even I had forgotten about those important facts. SSW= fun times. BTW, good to see you again

And it took me so long there were tons of posts in before it hit the forums Hai, fun times, even when Crash was trying to be a rules lawyer And tis good to see you and lots of others.

[Chromoid]

Vandal, on 29 June 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

It's not a flamewar to say, 'This post is dumb, here is why.'

This, but I do understand where IMTatsu is coming from. He posed a question based on old "codes" of ethical warfare previously used in other installments of the game (both PC and tabletop).

In the end, I think it really comes down to what you believe is "honorable," and how much of said "honor" you're willing to exert versus how much armor you're willing to lose.

Edited by Chromoid, 30 June 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[Balls of Steele]

Chromoid, on 30 June 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

This, but I do understand where IMTatsu is coming from. He posed a question based on old "codes" of ethical warfare previously used in other installments of the game (both PC and tabletop).

In the end, I think it really comes down to what you believe is "honorable," and how much of said "honor" you're willing to exert versus how much armor you're willing to lose.

Personally, I'm not willing to exhibit any honour at all. I fully intend on exploiting bragging rights to the maximum when we roll over La Davion, up to and including shooting on their corpses...with urine.

[anonymous153]

Honor in battle to is to use every possible method you have at your disposal to either bring out a surrender or a win against the enemy while expecting the same to be done to you. If they happen to survive the match then get them a drink at a bar like old friends despite the fact you were trying to kill each other a few minutes ago.

By not 'legging' or 'heading' you are being dishonorable and should be a grave insult.

[AceTimberwolf]

FireBerretta, on 29 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

@ AceTimberwolf and Slapshot. Unfortunately it seems you have been playing with a different breed of Liao than I have if you perceive the Entire House as a Dishonorable. I have been a part of Liao in MPBT:Solaris (1996-1999), MPBT:3025 (as short lived as that was), and ISW (Inner Sphere Wars). The old timers from MPBT days know what honor is and have always upheld their honor in and off the battlefield. Sure we have some renegades..who doesn't? But to say Liao as a whole is dishonorable is neither fair nor is it accurate. I have seen enough of my old Pals here on the forums to know that "this" rendition of House Liao will be as honorable as any I have known. Before condemning us I would ask that you give House Liao some credit and a fair chance. <DB>

Yea What Slapshot said. Its not the ppl who Play House Liao its the Fiction Protrays House Liao as shaddy conniving cheating little buggers. Not insulting you guys just the House you play for hahaha.

[Faust de Rache]

The concept of the Capellan Confederation, the faction that is known for having to do whatever it takes to survive due to the military might and author fiat powers bestowed on its major enemy, subscribing to a doctrine (from the wrong ******* culture, no less!) that forces them to fight and act a certain way or lose face is laughable. Let the Combine roleplayers have their bushido; it would at least make sense for them.

In the meantime, read a book.

[IMTatsu]

Tarl Cabot, on 29 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I believe the feedback provided is due to the lack of understanding of where you are coming from.

Primarily the no legging/heading started during MPBT Solaris (AOL/Gamestorm) Initially due to the initial coding, a legged mech was a bump in the road. There were no alternate views nor could the pilot fire his weapons except from the mech's foreward arc, which meant with a legged mech the enemy had to be standing over the downed to be hit by return fire. And no, the player mech was not destroyed with both legs gone. As for the head, it was almost always an instant kill.

With that in the light, lots of people who were dropping into the game as newbies, there was no fun nor joy in laying on your backside waiting to be destroyed (and most did not know how to eject) or within seconds of contact with the enemy losing your mech losing its head. Not very long the House Leaders came together with the community and adopted the no legging/heading rules, wrapping honorable game play around it. The aim was to reduce the frustration involved and allow the new players time to learn and love the game. Those who refused to abide by the community rules were ostracized if they did not step in line. Usually this started with discussions but if ignored their names were posted everywhere and people stopped dropping with them. If they were part of a unit then peer pressure was used or they were removed from the unit.

Eventually code went in that randomized headshots, as well as not only having alternate views but the ability to fire from those views (arm or rear mounted weapons).

It was the more seasoned merc/house units, iirc, who urged the lifting of the ban on heading/legging. The restrictions were not utilized in their tourneys most of the time and allowed different and more of a variety of gameplay. Once it was decided the community was informed of the decision a few weeks before the SSW that was being hosted by House Kurita. The lifting of the ban also meant tactics had to be tweaked or changed, dependent on class and lance mix. For the veteran players and units alike, for some it was a bigger change than for others. Players during their matches could request that the head/legging not be allowed for that match and as long as the other players agreed then that was honored during that match.

Then came MW2-3-4 and that idea carried over into those games, each with their own issues and weirdness, for a variety of reasons but no small part due to those MPBT Solaris players.

As for us snakes We were the host for the first SSW when legging/heading was allowed. Fun times, especially for those who had no tactics when that removal. Lots of people went legging without understand that it has its place and time, thus ended up losing matches unnecessarily.

Thanks, Tarl for the clarification and the history.

I was convinced that I had landed square in the middle of bizarro-world there for a bit.

btw, good to see you again. <db>

>:{

[Otto Cannon]

I don't think I'd bother with legging in this game, since it's supposed to be harder to hit them with so much shaking, and the mech won't fall over anyway. Hopefully headshots should be nearly impossible to do intentionally too, there's no point in armour if they make the cockpit hitbox too big. We'll have to see how effective these tactics are in-game before we know whether there's even any advantage.

[Squidhead Jax]

This is the Inner Sphere. If you want to tie your hand behind your back and stick your head up your *** and call it honor, Clan Space is that way ->

[Kronos Hopeslayer]

The only time I would offer any conditions to an enemy would be if it was a dual. In a grand melee every part of the mech is an option.

[Backhack]

Kill the meat, save the metal.

[Supremacist]

Kronos Hopeslayer, on 01 July 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

The only time I would offer any conditions to an enemy would be if it was a dual.

It it was a dual what?





I can only speak for the word, but we will be abiding by ALL honour rules, we use the british spelling to pay homage to the country of origin.
Not only will we abide by these rules, but also something similar to clan battle rituals, like no focused fireing and always fighting with one less person. For example, even if we dropped 12 vs 12, one of our guys would just watch the battle.
Despite all this, we will still win our battles.

Edited by Supremacist, 01 July 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[wanderer]

Exilyth, on 30 June 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

子貢問曰：“有一言而可以終身行之者乎”？子曰：“其恕乎！己所不欲、勿施於人。”

Zi Gong [a disciple] asked: "Is there any one word that could guide a person throughout life?"
The Master replied: "How about 'reciprocity'! Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself."
in Analects XV.24, tr. David Hinton


Personally I prefer treating all enemies with respect until they show themselves not worthy of such honor. Once that line is crossed, everything goes, but I shall never be the first to cross it.

The greatest respect an enemy shows me is trying to kill me first. The greatest respect I can show him is sending him to the grave for trying.

[Killer Rock]

CmdrSpider, on 29 June 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Fighting with honor sound good, but how could you ever truly enforce this.

Below is how it was enforced.

Tarl Cabot, on 29 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I believe the feedback provided is due to the lack of understanding of where you are coming from.

Primarily the no legging/heading started during MPBT Solaris (AOL/Gamestorm) Initially due to the initial coding, a legged mech was a bump in the road. There were no alternate views nor could the pilot fire his weapons except from the mech's foreward arc, which meant with a legged mech the enemy had to be standing over the downed to be hit by return fire. And no, the player mech was not destroyed with both legs gone. As for the head, it was almost always an instant kill.

With that in the light, lots of people who were dropping into the game as newbies, there was no fun nor joy in laying on your backside waiting to be destroyed (and most did not know how to eject) or within seconds of contact with the enemy losing your mech losing its head. Not very long the House Leaders came together with the community and adopted the no legging/heading rules, wrapping honorable game play around it. The aim was to reduce the frustration involved and allow the new players time to learn and love the game. Those who refused to abide by the community rules were ostracized if they did not step in line. Usually this started with discussions but if ignored their names were posted everywhere and people stopped dropping with them. If they were part of a unit then peer pressure was used or they were removed from the unit.

Eventually code went in that randomized headshots, as well as not only having alternate views but the ability to fire from those views (arm or rear mounted weapons).

It was the more seasoned merc/house units, iirc, who urged the lifting of the ban on heading/legging. The restrictions were not utilized in their tourneys most of the time and allowed different and more of a variety of gameplay. Once it was decided the community was informed of the decision a few weeks before the SSW that was being hosted by House Kurita. The lifting of the ban also meant tactics had to be tweaked or changed, dependent on class and lance mix. For the veteran players and units alike, for some it was a bigger change than for others. Players during their matches could request that the head/legging not be allowed for that match and as long as the other players agreed then that was honored during that match.

Then came MW2-3-4 and that idea carried over into those games, each with their own issues and weirdness, for a variety of reasons but no small part due to those MPBT Solaris players.

As for us snakes We were the host for the first SSW when legging/heading was allowed. Fun times, especially for those who had no tactics when that removal. Lots of people went legging without understand that it has its place and time, thus ended up losing matches unnecessarily.

Games in the 90's and even early 2000's had a different style to them. MPBT Solaris or DAoC or whatever other multiplayer games usually had some sort of honor code to follow that was implemented by the players and was actually followed by the majority of the players. Now adays if someone tried to add any player made rules, you would be hard pressed to ever get the community to listen.

That said, i hope the game mechanics themselves fix the issues of heading and legging. I'm assuming it wont be as easy to 1 shot kill someones head in this game as it was back then.

Edited by Killer Rock, 01 July 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Ramrod]

Your legs are all mine.

[Amberlance]

The clans had the right idea with their zellbrigen, which is the honourable shooting of the leg armour.

[Illegal Username]

I have never bushed nor i ever will bushi anyone. I resent the allegation!