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To Bushido or Not to Bushido


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#101 Squidhead Jax

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:29 PM

View PostIMTatsu, on 02 July 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Lead by example. Do your part to make this great house something more than the memory that increasingly fewer of us remember.

>:{


My loyalty to my fellow citizens demands that I do everything possible to protect them, especially if I do it from the enemy's backside.

Stepping away from the semi-IC talk, attempting to implement some sort of behavioral strictures that aren't enforced by the game mechanics themselves is, these days at least, just a prescription for frustration. The best way to make this game noob-friendly - which is essential for its long-term health - is to try and get noob-friendly features built into the game, such as performance-tier sorting for random matches (I have no idea if they've said they plan to do that or not) and making in-game VoIP available so PUGs can effectively communicate (they've announced plans to not do that, which I think is problematic). The next best way is to actually be noob-friendly, not by binding yourself to rules that other people aren't going to follow, but through gestures like actually talking to people who broadcast that they're new and occasionally just asking, especially if you see somebody acting in a way that suggests unfamiliarity with the game.

#102 wanderer

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:31 PM

View PostInfine, on 02 July 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

I wonder if OP bred some new species of landmines that leave legs intact :P


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-mine

Posted Image

For when you want a landmine that says "POW! Right in the kisser."

#103 Amberlance

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:40 PM

We must make a distinction between the enemy and ourselves, and we must not adopt an antagonistic stand towards comrades and treat them as we would the enemy. In speaking up, one must have an ardent desire to protect the cause of the people and raise their political consciousness, and there must be no ridiculing or attacking in one's approach.

Comrades must understand that ideological remolding involves long-term, patient and painstaking work, and they must not attempt to change people's ideology, which has been shaped over decades of life, by giving a few lectures or by holding a few meetings. Persuasion, not compulsion, is the only way to convince them. Compulsion will never result in convincing them. To try to convince them by force simply won't work. This kind of method is permissible in dealing with the enemy, but absolutely impermissible in dealing with comrades or friends.

#104 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:56 PM

View PostIMTatsu, on 02 July 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Half of me wishes I hadn't started this thread to begin with. The other half of me is glad that I did, if for no other reason than it gave a pretty clear look at the landscape, and the journey that lies ahead for our great house.

I was both surprised and saddend by the demeanor, the tone, and the overall disrespectful attitudes from many of the posters who call themselves Capellans. It doesn't matter so much for myself. I'm a big boy, and been carrying water for this gaming universe for longer than some of these folks have been alive..
..

Lead by example. Do your part to make this great house something more than the memory that increasingly fewer of us remember.

>:{


hai Tatsu. Back then mainstream was still discovering the internet. But not anymore. Notice the quick responses from those who really failed to read the thread itself.

As for House Liao and the CCAF, the MPBT culture (all 3 versions - EGA/Solaris/3025) was quite opposite of how that society is portrayed in many of the books, at least from the outside looking in. And by many of the responses, even those flying the Liao colors are still looking from the outside.

Tatsu, it will be an interesting adventure, tis for sure, especially with internet anonymity :P

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 02 July 2012 - 02:57 PM.


#105 Fyad

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 03:31 PM

View PostIMTatsu, on 02 July 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Half of me wishes I hadn't started this thread to begin with. The other half of me is glad that I did, if for no other reason than it gave a pretty clear look at the landscape, and the journey that lies ahead for our great house.

I was both surprised and saddend by the demeanor, the tone, and the overall disrespectful attitudes from many of the posters who call themselves Capellans. It doesn't matter so much for myself. I'm a big boy, and been carrying water for this gaming universe for longer than some of these folks have been alive..

However, it brings me no small amount of despair to think what prospective new Capellans have to look forward to. The number of people active on these forums now will only pale in comparison to what it will be as we get closer to launch. It is you here now, all of you, who will define the shape and course of the Capellan Confederation. Future potential leaders each and every one.

Lead by example. Do your part to make this great house something more than the memory that increasingly fewer of us remember.

>:{




"Fellow Capellans, lets ignore every last scrap of the faction background and lore and run with this arbitrary honorHONOUR ruleset that would get a Liao mechwarrior reeducated by the Maskirovka if he actually followed it!"

Edited by Fyad, 02 July 2012 - 03:32 PM.


#106 TG Xarbala

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:37 PM

View PostIMTatsu, on 02 July 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Half of me wishes I hadn't started this thread to begin with. The other half of me is glad that I did, if for no other reason than it gave a pretty clear look at the landscape, and the journey that lies ahead for our great house.

I was both surprised and saddend by the demeanor, the tone, and the overall disrespectful attitudes from many of the posters who call themselves Capellans. It doesn't matter so much for myself. I'm a big boy, and been carrying water for this gaming universe for longer than some of these folks have been alive..

However, it brings me no small amount of despair to think what prospective new Capellans have to look forward to. The number of people active on these forums now will only pale in comparison to what it will be as we get closer to launch. It is you here now, all of you, who will define the shape and course of the Capellan Confederation. Future potential leaders each and every one.

Lead by example. Do your part to make this great house something more than the memory that increasingly fewer of us remember.

>:{



You seem to be biased by outside experiences that have no basis in canon. And probably have been for a very long time, considering you're an old dog with the game. However, this degree of experience with insular communities also tends to breed a degree of entitlement towards nonsensical or otherwise unenforceable standards of conduct. No legging, no heading, no circlestomps? No items, Fox only, Final Destination.

In the Battletech universe, the Capellan Confederation are masters of dirty fighting, ambushes, and treachery. They have to be, they're at a constant disadvantage regarding numbers and, with the exception of their elite Warrior Houses, Death Commandos, and prestigious former Merc units, lacking in quality troops. Heck, they literally invented Stealth Armor, the closest thing the IS had to reproducing the Star League's infamous Null Sig System until the Jihad. The Capellans have never been in a position to enjoy enforcing "honorable combat" because historically honor as a combat limitation is only imposed by superior forces who wish to prevent inferior forces from using the asymmetrical combat tactics necessary to give said inferior forces a chance at victory. The Draconis Combine is the only Successor State to enforce honorable conduct, and in-universe it's because they have severe and crippling cultural flaws and the greatest leader in the Combine's history, Theodore Kurita, was the first person in a position of power to point out that playing fair against more clever, more sneaky opponents (like Hanse Davion) was unwise to say the least.

Besides, if there's a salvage system (which seems unlikely, going by hints dropped around), heading would be an extremely good idea. Kill the meat, save the metal.

Frankly, playing with Internet Bushido is only in-character for the Draconis Combine and the Clans, and in canon when the Clans arrived the Combine suffered severely for their unwillingness to drop their idiotic honor codes. Heck, the Clans themselves gave up on zellbrigen when they realized it was doing them more harm than good. No amount of fingerwagging or browbeating is going to change the fact that not only are you imposing arbitrary restrictions on player behavior without any basis in the game system itself (devs stated they wanted to make dedicated legging impractical, improving leg armor to the point where you're better off aiming at their torsos) you're also being so presumptuous as to dictate what is or is not the national character of an entire portion of the Battletech IP without actually taking into account the Battletech universe's fiction.

Liao plays dirty because they have to--to do otherwise is to fail the Chancellor and the Confederation. You would do well to remember that.

#107 Skadi

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:41 PM

ill prolly leg in this game , i dont in MWLL because its the most anoying thing possible due to taking 1 leg out = lolyourtoppled, but since you actualy haft to take both out in this game ill more than likely aim for what ever takes you out faster.
(especialy because some of you people will be doing it to me :))

Edited by Skadi, 02 July 2012 - 04:55 PM.


#108 Shane W

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:54 PM

A victory without honor is not a victory at all.
Some of this depends on how the game plays out. if you aim center torso and the game determines that you hit the leg what are you to do.
If it is where you aim at a moving target and a missle arcs to hit the head then that is dumb luck.
If it is instant straight line fire, the lasers and A/C will be the best and speed will keep you alive.

#109 Bastard Ken

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 06:00 PM

View PostSir Shane Willis, on 02 July 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

A victory without honor is not a victory at all.


Quote

vic·to·ry /vikt(ə)rē/
Noun: An act of defeating an enemy or opponent in a battle, game, or other competition: "an election victory".


hth :)

#110 Infine

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 06:42 PM

View PostIMTatsu, on 02 July 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

I was both surprised and saddend by the demeanor, the tone, and the overall disrespectful attitudes from many of the posters who call themselves Capellans. It doesn't matter so much for myself. I'm a big boy, and been carrying water for this gaming universe for longer than some of these folks have been alive..

You know what I'm saddened with.

The hypocritical honour-mongers.

The rules did make sense in MPBT due to crappy game mechanics. The rules still did make sense in MW3 due to the same crappy game mechanics. But this very game is not MPBT or MW3. Even MW4 already was not MW3 or MPBT. You don't no head/no leg in counter strike, do you? Because such arbitrary restrictions do not make sense there. Well, guess what, MWO is just as different a game, as CS is. And MW4 was too. And I was sick and tired of "honourable" MW4 mech"warriors" that stripped their leg armour to mount more punch and then complained they are being legged. Or guys loading up on energy weapons to 1hitKO everything in front of them, going shutdown after each shot and then complaining that shooting a shutdowned enemy is dishonourable. Dishonourable my ***. Abusing honour rules is apparently a honourable behaviour these days.

If this game becomes unplayable without arbitrary honour rules - yes, I will abide by them. Otherwise - no.
"Honour" is a term a strong side uses to make a weak side even more weak so the strong side could continue to roflstomp noobs (for that matter I'm wondering how there are still no outcries to ban ninjacapping in MW:LL).
And "historically" CapCon has no place for honour for precisely that reason. CapCon can not afford honourable combat. Dracs can with their endless supply of fresh meat and huge territories. CapCon is the smallest faction in universe (besides, maybe, Rasalhague). It has no resources to have a leisure of honour fighting. If CapCon complied by honour codes in universe, by 3050 we would not have such a faction at all. We would have a Fed Sues/FWL border instead.

#111 Slapshot

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:03 PM

View PostButtlord, on 02 July 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:


This is a good post. In addition to this, if a game is so awfully designed and terribly balanced (like Solaris was) that the community needs to come up with and adhere to arbitrary "honor" rules that prevent exploiting the terrible game mechanics, in order to simply make the game bearable, that game is a ****** game.

A game should be enjoyable by design, no matter what strategies or tactics the players employ.


Most of this stuff comes from battletech lore, and usually comes from the clans concept of zellbringen and the combines bushido. It's more storyline flavor than anything realistic.

#112 Nibiru Is Near

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:09 PM

When im playing im going straight for the legs or the head... Anything to win the game... No such thing as honor in war.

#113 Uxion

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:17 PM

If you want to fight with honor, fight to win by using every possible means.

Chivalry and Honorable combat are dead and used by the weak as a crutch.

#114 Chuggernaut

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:10 PM

View PostSlapshot, on 02 July 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:


Most of this stuff comes from battletech lore, and usually comes from the clans concept of zellbringen and the combines bushido. It's more storyline flavor than anything realistic.


So why would other factions use them again? If anything it's more the CC's speed to try and get these silly "honor codes" in vogue with the FS and then use that to their advantage. I mean, it wasn't silly "honorable combat" that retook Tikonov or got the FedSuns off Sarna.

#115 Allen Wren

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 10:15 PM

Screw honor. We're here to shoot mechs in the face. Or the knees. The only dishonor is losing.

#116 Karl Streiger

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 10:32 PM

There are a lot of babykillers right here....you will kill everythin only because of the lust to kill something?
I have no problem to toast to someone that have fought well. A dead for a knight even if friend or foe should be honored.

However that said nothing how i will fight... if i found a worthy opponent, that isn't on the list of those faction that i want to wipe out ,i may allow him to retreat when his mech isn't longer able for a fair fight

#117 DarkCain

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:12 PM

View PostNibiru Is Near, on 02 July 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

When im playing im going straight for the legs or the head... Anything to win the game... No such thing as honor in war.


Go for the head... The legs take too long unless you are talking light mechs. Legging the light mech serves two purposes... 1. Slow the little snot down. 2. To torture the light mech pilot before you kill 'em.

#118 Ramrod

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:16 PM

View PostIMTatsu, on 02 July 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Half of me wishes I hadn't started this thread to begin with. The other half of me is glad that I did, if for no other reason than it gave a pretty clear look at the landscape, and the journey that lies ahead for our great house.

I was both surprised and saddend by the demeanor, the tone, and the overall disrespectful attitudes from many of the posters who call themselves Capellans. It doesn't matter so much for myself. I'm a big boy, and been carrying water for this gaming universe for longer than some of these folks have been alive..

However, it brings me no small amount of despair to think what prospective new Capellans have to look forward to. The number of people active on these forums now will only pale in comparison to what it will be as we get closer to launch. It is you here now, all of you, who will define the shape and course of the Capellan Confederation. Future potential leaders each and every one.

Lead by example. Do your part to make this great house something more than the memory that increasingly fewer of us remember.

>:{



OP, not only will I leg you if you fall on your face, but after enduring this post, I will leg you if we are on the same team.

#119 yaay

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 04:22 AM

View PostIMTatsu, on 02 July 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Half of me wishes I hadn't started this thread to begin with. The other half of me is glad that I did, if for no other reason than it gave a pretty clear look at the landscape, and the journey that lies ahead for our great house.

I was both surprised and saddend by the demeanor, the tone, and the overall disrespectful attitudes from many of the posters who call themselves Capellans. It doesn't matter so much for myself. I'm a big boy, and been carrying water for this gaming universe for longer than some of these folks have been alive..

However, it brings me no small amount of despair to think what prospective new Capellans have to look forward to. The number of people active on these forums now will only pale in comparison to what it will be as we get closer to launch. It is you here now, all of you, who will define the shape and course of the Capellan Confederation. Future potential leaders each and every one.

Lead by example. Do your part to make this great house something more than the memory that increasingly fewer of us remember.

>:{



http://www.youtube.c...d&v=yfelqZpapZA

#120 fil5000

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 04:36 AM

View PostIMTatsu, on 02 July 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:


I was both surprised and saddend by the demeanor, the tone, and the overall disrespectful attitudes from many of the posters who call themselves Capellans.


The Capellans blew the hell out of thier capital city to take out a few Davions that they'd tricked into going into it, along with 10,000 of their own people. Exactly what "demeanour and tone" are you expecting from people who find something to admire in that philosophy? You say to lead by example? Well, following the example of the Chancellor back then I will be luring Davions into an enclosed area, having a light loaded with nothing but machine gun ammo run up to them and then shooting the hell out of said light mech, watching the fireworks and shouting "YOUR SACRIFICE WILL BE REMEMBERED!" as the Davion's legs, arms and heads fall off.





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