81 replies to this topic

[Necromantion]

Averen, on 18 February 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Some clan players are certainly hardcore at making up excuses. The superior side should be obvious by looking at the galaxy map. If factual evidence isn't convincing you, then nothing will.

Many IS mechs can keep up well in CW and the quirks indeed allowed for some devastating builds, but that still won't alleviate the simple reality of clans having the strongest and most weight efficient mechs in the game. Stormcrow and Timberwolf, and, with minor issues, Hellbringer and Direwolf. The limited mechpool most clanner use is telling.
Maybe IS-Mechs are stronger at certain ranges and situations, but clan-mechs have more potential to direct the combat. The worth of the combination of superior mobility and range should go without words.

Are you delusional or eating a diet consisting of mostly lead paint chips?

The only reason clans have had the success that they have experienced is due to the majority of the comp teams spending the most of their time as clans. Mass gains on the clan fronts have for the majority been made when large Merc alliances swap to their clan time periods throwing their weight there. It has NOTHING to do with clan tech being vastly superior, the only time that clan tech was vastly superior was the first few weeks of its inception prior to tweaking that nerfed it to a more reasonable level that was then matched by IS quirks.

Also regarding your second comment, how about the 3 Thunderbolt 1 Firestarter decks that dominated for weeks and probably still will even post 9S nerf? I have played what I would consider to be a fairly modest amount of CW matches on both factions and all I see from IS matches are Thunderbolts, Jagermechs, Firestarters for the most part with a smattering of ravens, stalkers, jenners and the occasional atlas, catapult, cataphract, banshee or battlemaster.

On the flipside for clans you mostly see Stormcrows, Timberwolves with a smattering of Hellbringers, Mist lynx/Ice ferrets) (to balance deck weights) and the occasional Direwolf, Warhawk or Mad dog.

Proportionally the representation of other Clan mechs are lower than Stormcrows and Timberwolves because things like the Summoner, Ice ferret, Adder, Nova, Kit fox and the like are all vastly inferior to the majority if IS and Clan mechs.

Also stromcrows have a nice geometry indeed that with torso twisting can spread a LOT of damage out, however its CT is extremely vulnerable and when they start to peek over terrain their CT is exposed before the pilot can see due to the cockpit location, the same can be said for the side torsos of the Timberwolf.

Once again there are advantages to each faction and I really dont feel like listing them all but clans do not get full marks for every weapon or chassis by a good margin. IS quirks have facilitated IS mechs to reach out to the same or close to the same ranges. Also so what if a Clan ERLLas can touch you at 1400m? It is doing nearly no damage, the strong Clan weapons are beam weapons which requires them to stay exposed to use them until the beam duration is done and have no beam quirks. On the flipside IS reduced beam time, single round AC weapons and the like allow you to use cover more effectively. So my suggestion would be to make use of cover better and learn to trade better with the little to no burn time IS weapons.

Unless youve played a good amount of time on both faction in CW then I am more than skeptical of anyone's post claiming IS or Clan are better.

Edited by Necromantion, 18 February 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[Averen]

Funny that you claim i don't have proof. The galaxy map is out there for everybody to see, and it paints a pretty obvious picture.
That's some good evidence, while i otherwise only see assumptions as to why this is. Not to mention your assumptions are based on an opinion, namely that CW is indeed balanced between both faction. Not very convincing, to be completely honest.
I'd say put some data forward. You know, instead of insults, which only makes it look like your idea of clans not having an advantage is some personal thing. Which would be pretty silly, having a cognitive dissonance over a game.

[Necromantion]

Averen, on 18 February 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Funny that you claim i don't have proof. The galaxy map is out there for everybody to see, and it paints a pretty obvious picture.
That's some good evidence, while i otherwise only see assumptions as to why this is. Not to mention your assumptions are based on an opinion, namely that CW is indeed balanced between both faction. Not very convincing, to be completely honest.
I'd say put some data forward. You know, instead of insults, which only makes it look like your idea of clans not having an advantage is some personal thing. Which would be pretty silly, having a cognitive dissonance over a game.

Did you not understand Mordens or my even more detailed post? The maps bulges have happened for both IS and Clan when large groups of mercs have thrown their weight around, 228, CI, MS and the like otherwise gains have been back and forth between IS and Clans, heck if you remove the aforementioned units out of the equation the factions that have made the most gains as far as planets controlled by tag are IS loyalists with Kurita at the top.

Pointing at the map as an indicator of Clan or IS being "OP" is a logical fallacy because things like constrictive attack lanes, higher numbers of players, location of skilled units play a LOT more influence in CW than a specific tech being op.

I did put some blatantly obvious evidence forward that you too should have seen if you opened your eyes when playing the CW matches that you say you have that have established your "Clans are OP" stance on things. I told you I play each faction 50/50 with literally half my time in CW since it started split between IS and Clans. It has nothing to do with bias, it has to do with seeing both sides of the CW table and using my brain and applying some critical thinking and some logic.

[bobF]

The data is there on smurfy, based on hard math like heat efficiency, armor, DPS, firepower and other non-refutable statistics. The only thing required when making the comparisons is intellectual honesty.

[Rogue Jedi]

my highest scoring game ever was in the TDR-9s, however I have far more 800+ damage games in a Timber Wolf, my most kills in a match were in a Firestarter and my most damage outside of a Heavy was in a Hunchback.

the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow are unquestionably overpowered however most of the other Clan Mechs have a close match or outright better IS Mech within 5 tones of its weight.

are some Clan Mechs and items of equipment more powerful than IS equivelents? yes

are some IS Mechs superior to there Clan equivelents? yes

yes the Clan Endo, Ferro, DHS and XL engines are better

Clan Lasers are better than IS Lasers IF you can hold the lasers on target for their full duration, and the target does not twist to spread damage, otherwise they are inferior to IS Lasers.

Clan LRMs are highly vulnerable to AMS so are not really overpowered (or at least would not be if everyone took AMS), however the fact that most Clan Mechs can put on a 10-15 tube launcher as an afterthought does lend to the perception that they are overpowered,

Clan ACs are less effective despite being lighter due to the burst mechanic.

the only Clan Weapons that are unquestionably superior to there IS equivalents regardless of player skill levels are the SRMs, ERPPC and Gauss Rifle.

I think balance right now is pretty close except for the aforementioned Timber Wolf and Storm Crow

[Necromantion]

Rogue Jedi, on 18 February 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

I agree with everything in your post other than the assertion that the stormcrow and timberwolf are really that substantially ahead of any and every other mech.

[Krivvan]

There may be imbalances, but not so insurmountable that it ends up being the main reason any team loses in CW: http://youtu.be/G7xzRfVCbKs

[MechWarrior5152251]

LOL, that is funny. I find the average IS player is superior to the average Clan player. Fanboys tend to suck.

[fisher]

For over 20 years, it's always been the same thing. Tabletop or electronic, people will find any excuse to defend the Clan mechs. You'd think having an actual sense of balance would trigger an allergic reaction, and their excuses and justifications have always been this flimsy.

Thanks for proving that nothing changes.

[Necromantion]

fisher, on 18 February 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

For over 20 years, it's always been the same thing. Tabletop or electronic, people will find any excuse to defend the Clan mechs. You'd think having an actual sense of balance would trigger an allergic reaction, and their excuses and justifications have always been this flimsy.

Thanks for proving that nothing changes.

The concrete evidence that you just provided to show how overpowered clan mechs are in MWO is astonishing.

[Leggin Ho]

fisher, on 18 February 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

For over 20 years, it's always been the same thing. Tabletop or electronic, people will find any excuse to defend the Clan mechs. You'd think having an actual sense of balance would trigger an allergic reaction, and their excuses and justifications have always been this flimsy.

Thanks for proving that nothing changes.

And in the first 20 years no DEV team has went so far to screw clam mechs and buff IS mechs to the point of being able to build what is alomst a NHUA build on the IS side and a constant fire support platform with no penalties such as the AC 5 and LRM 10 quirks. So look at both side before you post non sense again please. Can weapons hit hard but are also being hit harder by heat penalties and beam duration or firing a spread of shots for our Ulta AC's which have always been a double shot, not 5 hit's to get their full damage. I have mechs from both sides and in pug games the clan mechs may seem OP, but when playing a team that actually works together the heat scale alone takes clan mechs and makes them sub par to a correctly built qurked IS mech.

[Mordin Ashe]

fisher, on 18 February 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

For over 20 years, it's always been the same thing. Tabletop or electronic, people will find any excuse to defend the Clan mechs. You'd think having an actual sense of balance would trigger an allergic reaction, and their excuses and justifications have always been this flimsy.

Thanks for proving that nothing changes.

MWO has nothing to do with previous 20 years of products different companies release. PGI changes things as they see fit and I don't understand why we should change balance in current game because some other tabletop game released two decades ago did something differently.

[Lily from animove]

clans Op? Guess some palyers will show you you are wrong

http://mwomercs.com/...92-match-score/

now start using the IS mechs right finally.

bobF, on 18 February 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

The data is there on smurfy, based on hard math like heat efficiency, armor, DPS, firepower and other non-refutable statistics. The only thing required when making the comparisons is intellectual honesty.

lostech in the most IS parts; thats why they can not play the strenght of their mechs.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 February 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[MuzMuzMuz]

Vassago Rain, on 08 February 2015 - 10:46 PM, said:

Spoiler

No, the issue is that PGI launched clans as P2W mega OP early access, and kept them hidden behind a paywall for 6 months.

As they released for c-bills, they were target nerfed to the ground, but they're still significantly stronger than IS. I don't understand how people can claim otherwise. IS medium laser is one ton, one crit, clan medium laser is the same, but has large laser damage and range. Clan gauss rifle is lighter and smaller. Clan XLs don't die to side torso destruction. Clan lasers, period, have a HUGE range advantage. Their double heatsinks use less space. BAP and ECM are smaller (AMS used to have twice the ammo of IS AMS). FF armor and endo combined take up the same space as ONE of the IS equivalent upgrades.

Half tonnage, half crit missiles. All missiles.

This really isn't up for debate, guys. Until orions become equivalent to madcats, that's not gonna change. You look very foolish when you claim there's some kind of parity. The good players understand that clans are just better, so they obviously roll clans when winning becomes important. Why wouldn't they? That's right - they wouldn't. PGI has actually had to introduce target BUFFS (quirks) to IS mechs to get people to play them. We're talking IS got 50% rate of fire increases on AC5s, and that was the only way to make people play the old clunkers.

New players know this, and they get turned off by it. MWO has a terrible rep for its grab deal balancing, balance by feel, 'early access' mech paks, poor PR, poor community/dev interactions, CCP styled decision making, 500 dollar gold mechs, years of neglect on graphics, tech, map design...and the huge grind.

There's this Pink Floyd sized wall of problems PGI must overcome if they want MWO to get anywhere. Right now, it's a stagnant mess. It would help out so much if the community rallied between common sense approaches. For instance, rather than pretend CW is great and for the most elite, we all admit it's not fun, and flawed by design, since there's absolutely no point for the attackers to ever engage the defenders. Just rush the OGs and the big gun. You'll win and make more money that way.

At the rate we're going, this isn't gonna survive steam. It'll be a repeat of hawken, which would be an immense waste of a game we've all spent years playing, and for what purpose? Just make the game good. Everybody wins if MWO is good, accessible, and open to players both new and old.

That's all I have to say on this subject.

^^^ this ad nauseam.

What the enthusiasts and lore purists wanted to see was OP clan mechs and 10 v 12 binary vs company battles. Instead we have 12 v 12 and contradictory balance targets for CW and regular play. Anything quirked to compete with the best in class for skirmish/conquest/assault matches should be OP with regard to tonnage efficiency in CW. ELO matchmaking can hide that to an extent with consistant play of inferior mechs eventually yielding weaker opponents but in CW it's telling.

[Pragr]

Averen, on 18 February 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Some clan players are certainly hardcore at making up excuses. The superior side should be obvious by looking at the galaxy map. If factual evidence isn't convincing you, then nothing will.

Many IS mechs can keep up well in CW and the quirks indeed allowed for some devastating builds, but that still won't alleviate the simple reality of clans having the strongest and most weight efficient mechs in the game. Stormcrow and Timberwolf, and, with minor issues, Hellbringer and Direwolf. The limited mechpool most clanner use is telling.
Maybe IS-Mechs are stronger at certain ranges and situations, but clan-mechs have more potential to direct the combat. The worth of the combination of superior mobility and range should go without words.

I'm not an expert. But from my point of view, the only significant advantage Clan mechs enjoy is their XL engine durability. If the side torso destruction would meant the mech destruction I bet the Clan mechs wouldn't looked so "OP".

[Basilisk222]

Prosperity Park, on 08 February 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think it's about time we stop blaming Mechs and game balance on the perceived disparity between Clans' and the Inner Sphere's performance in Community Warfare.

Let's face it - Battletech is rife with the concept that Clanners are superior to InnerSphere fighters. Battletech fans who are are more likely to form bonds and join guilds are those who are more likely to join the Clans. Couple that with the high Cash-Barrier of Clan Mechs in this game, and you get a situation where those who think they are the best, who have been playing the game for the longest, and the most willingness to drop cash on the game will be forming organized groups under Clan banners.

______________________________________________

Let's take BattleTech out of the equation for a second:

Let's pretend that this is an entirely new IP, and you've never heard of MechWarrior before. You are an excellent Armorer Core/Tribes player, and you want to start playing this game and are willing to spend a little money on it up-front ($20 or so). You always play your PvP games in Guilds, and you play to win. You noticed that Clan Mechs and Inner Sphere Mechs cost the same, and have similar properties (i.e. their weapon sets have similarities and differences, but are fairly equal over-all).

Q. Would you jump to the "Clan" faction over the "Inner Sphere" faction?
A. Not really - there's no major reason to support one over the other.
______________________________________________

Let's put BT back into the equation, now. Here are 2 scenarios:

1. Let's pretend you're a BattleTech fan who's been playing MechWarrior for 15+ years. You are an excellent MechWarrior player, and you have been playing this game for years already with a massive accumulation of C-Bills and XP. You always play your PvP games in Guilds, and you play to win. You know that Clan Mechs are historically better than Inner Sphere Mechs, and Clanners are regarded as better players. You are willing to drop massive cash on this game because you love MechWariror.

2. Let's pretend you are a new player who has never heard of BattleTech before. You're not in a Guild, and you don't play-to-win... you play to have fun. You have no idea what a Clan is, but you do see that their equipment is very expensive and only attainable after either playing for a long time or dropping lots of cash up-front. You're willing to spend a little on this game to see how it pans out,but you're not going to spend any more than $20 until you're hooked.

________________________________________________


So... anyone else think this might explain why the Clans appear to have more Organized Groups in Community Warfare, and the Inner Sphere forces are filled with Pick-Up Gamers?

It's going to be this way until there is no Resource Barrier between Clans and the Inner Sphere, and until BattleTech fans completely drop the notion that Clan Tech is supposed to be better than IS Tech.

I don't think I'm the only one who feels a stronger connection to clan mechs, My favorites being the Maddog and the Timberwolf because I played and liked their models in game. I remember the missions best from Mechwarrior 2, and would probably run a firemoth if it was available in MWO.

I think Clanners are just veterans in general, a lot of us like the clans, not just because we have the money and the mechs are better in a sense, a lot of us Identify and have nostalgia for the clan mechs from when we were small playing boxy 3d mechwarrior games on our sega saturns, PS1's, or PC's.

We've just been playing this a long time, and clanners demographic is likely to be older, and a more lore centric set of players. (No way to confirm this, I'm guessing) Because of this we probably have discovered this game in beta or earlier and have been playing/watching it. We're much more practiced and familiar with the game. The best IS players are very similarly skilled, and the best ones to battle.

New blood must be trained, and new blood will go for IS mechs (they're cheaper) The C-Bill barrier keeps players out of the clans until they've played a lot longer, and there's your discrepancy right there.

[The Bounty Hunter]

The True Space Pope, on 09 February 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

The Space Pope thinks that most good players (or really all players) simply will gravitate towards whatever is easiest to do well with.

Is there a psychological component?

Sure, but there is a reason good players do very well in many clan mechs and it isn't primarily because they "think" it is better.

The Bounty Hunter endorses The True Space Pope's message, whole heartily.

[Surn]

Clan mechs are MWO training wheels.

[Count Zero 74]

Prosperity Park, on 08 February 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think it's about time we stop blaming Mechs and game balance on the perceived disparity between Clans' and the Inner Sphere's performance in Community Warfare.

Let's face it - Battletech is rife with the concept that Clanners are superior to InnerSphere fighters. Battletech fans who are are more likely to form bonds and join guilds are those who are more likely to join the Clans. Couple that with the high Cash-Barrier of Clan Mechs in this game, and you get a situation where those who think they are the best, who have been playing the game for the longest, and the most willingness to drop cash on the game will be forming organized groups under Clan banners.

1. Let's pretend you're a BattleTech fan who's been playing MechWarrior for 15+ years. You are an excellent MechWarrior player, and you have been playing this game for years already with a massive accumulation of C-Bills and XP. You always play your PvP games in Guilds, and you play to win. You know that Clan Mechs are historically better than Inner Sphere Mechs, and Clanners are regarded as better players. You are willing to drop massive cash on this game because you love MechWariror.

Tbh I'm sick of all that OP-this, OP-that BS. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not true, maybe (fill in whatever u think) are OP. The thing is I just don't CARE.

Ok, so I play Battletech since the mid 80's and have been playing MWO for quite some time now and have accumulated a lot of C-Bills and XP. I play nearly all my games with my unit and I play to win and while I whouldn't claim to be an "excellent" Mechwarrior I think I can say I'm quite a good one now. So according to Prosperity Parks post I should be a Clanner, right?

Then let me tell you this, in my 20+ years of BT I haven't played as Clanner and never will. The only way u can get me in one of those silly Omnis is to put my dead body in there.
Take a dictionary and look up the word "Loyalist". I'm Steiner and would still be Steiner even if a permanent contract would pay nothing at all, and I've got 150+ people in my Unit who think the same.
If you pick your faction based on who has the "supposedly" best Mechs or pays the most, be my guest. As I said I don't care.
But all you Clanners out there be aware (Even if you are those highly experienced, highly organized crowd that some posts in here claim you are):

Any Test Tube Baby that want's to set foot on Terra has to get past the Donegal Guards !!!
We're here and we're waiting for you so hop in your Über-Monster-Killer Mechs and bring it on.

[Necromantion]