141 replies to this topic

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Rouken, on 13 February 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

The complaint I always heard was that hits sometimes did not register on the upper parts of the mech. I've never observed this, however.

Yep pretty much that. And sometimes hits from the front transfer to the back and the other way

[LordKnightFandragon]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 13 February 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

Yep pretty much that. And sometimes hits from the front transfer to the back and the other way

thats an issue with the game's hit reg, not the SCRs hitbox....

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Brody319, on 13 February 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

because everything else is trash?

Suuure: Dire, Warhawk, maddog all useless

Even the Kitfox is good.

LordKnightFandragon, on 13 February 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

thats an issue with the game's hit reg, not the SCRs hitbox....

never really noticed on other mechs(hellbringer fixed). Pretty obvious on the stormcrow if you pay attention to it

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 13 February 2015 - 10:19 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 13 February 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

Suuure: Dire, Warhawk, maddog all useless



never really noticed on other mechs(hellbringer fixed). Pretty obvious on the stormcrow if you pay attention to it

Never any time to pay attention to whats going where...I just get shot, twist and run....If this game was slower paced, then maybe...

[Malcolm Vordermark]

F4T 4L, on 13 February 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

Even if only 10% of folk are currently using garbage clan mechs, when those mechs are improved (assuming the improvements provide additional firepower/DPS) ttk will fall. I don't understand why you'd argue the point.

Gotta have some kind of cut off. I would assume you must use the best mechs/builds when determining TTK. Otherwise, I could say TTK is too high because my Hunchback with only a small laser takes forever to kill people.

For example, you could continue to buff the Gargoyle for some time and not affect the TTK because the Timber Wolf is still a much more dangerous choice.

Most of the Clan mechs that are considered bad could really just use very small heat reductions and modest durability buffs. I actually wouldn't want anything beyond that for the first pass. Then we can see where we stand.

Likewise, Small heat increases on the Timber Wolf, Stormcrow, Hellbringer, and Dire Wolf should be examined. Particularly for certain omnipods, such as those with jump jets.

[F4T 4L]

Rouken, on 13 February 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

Gotta have some kind of cut off. I would assume you must use the best mechs/builds when determining TTK. Otherwise, I could say TTK is too high because my Hunchback with only a small laser takes forever to kill people.

For example, you could continue to buff the Gargoyle for some time and not affect the TTK because the Timber Wolf is still a much more dangerous choice.

Most of the Clan mechs that are considered bad could really just use very small heat reductions and modest durability buffs. I actually wouldn't want anything beyond that for the first pass. Then we can see where we stand.

Likewise, Small heat increases on the Timber Wolf, Stormcrow, Hellbringer, and Dire Wolf should be examined. Particularly for certain omnipods, such as those with jump jets.

Not everyone minmaxes, so the argument doesn't necessarily follow. If they did nothing but tbr/scr/etc would see any play at all, on the clan side.

I agree wih you for the most part, though.

Edited by F4T 4L, 13 February 2015 - 10:29 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

F4T 4L, on 13 February 2015 - 10:29 PM, said:

Not everyone minmaxes, so the argument doesn't necessarily follow. If they did nothing but tbr/scr/etc would see any play at all, on the clan side.

I agree wih you for the most part, though.

It is not a good idea to use those people for balance decisions. They provide insight on accessibility but not balance.

[F4T 4L]

Rouken, on 13 February 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

It is not a good idea to use those people for balance decisions. They provide insight on accessibility but not balance.

There we'll have to agree to disagree.

Edit: since those folks are the only ones playing these mechs, and assuming that PGI are balancing based on collected data, rather than forum whine.. I don't understand your position here.

Also saying stuff like that makes you come off as a bit of an elitist ****, IMHO, but that's less important.

Edited by F4T 4L, 13 February 2015 - 10:50 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

F4T 4L, on 13 February 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

There we'll have to agree to disagree.

Edit: since those folks are the only ones playing these mechs, and assuming that PGI are balancing based on collected data, rather than forum whine.. I don't understand your position here.

Also saying stuff like that makes you come off as a bit of an elitist ****, IMHO, but that's less important.

I'd look to someone like Gary Kasparov to see how balanced Chess is. I'd look to Joe with less than a 1300 Elo to determine how accessible the game is. I would not conclude that the four move check mate is OP because Joe falls for it every time.

[Mcgral18]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 13 February 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

Suuure: Dire, Warhawk, maddog all useless

Even the Kitfox is good.

Cute Fox good? No, it's the least useless. Arctic Cheetah would be good.


Anyhow, that leaves the Mist Lynx, Adder, Ice Ferret, Nova, Summoner and Gargoyle. Those are the ones that need big help. If they weren't terrible, there would be more variety. Of course, hitboxes are some of the biggest problem on half of them; you can't really fix those.

[kapusta11]

• Unlock fixed equipment (engines, JJs, endo and ferro upgrades etc.) Clan BattleMechs are comming anyways so what's the deal?
  
• Slightly nerf laser vomit and CGauss

Edited by kapusta11, 14 February 2015 - 01:56 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Uh perhaps if there were other options, not just more mechs but existing mehcs made viable things might change.

But there are two deep-rooted issues with clan mechs.

Fixed Equipment - Lack of free tonnage makes lasers and low tonnage ballistics the mainstay, and mechs like the summoner with fixed engine and JJ just can't compete.

Overall Heatscale - Is broken. We all know this but PGI can't be bothered to go back and fix it.

[YueFei]

Mcgral18, on 13 February 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

Cute Fox good? No, it's the least useless. Arctic Cheetah would be good.


Anyhow, that leaves the Mist Lynx, Adder, Ice Ferret, Nova, Summoner and Gargoyle. Those are the ones that need big help. If they weren't terrible, there would be more variety. Of course, hitboxes are some of the biggest problem on half of them; you can't really fix those.

You can compensate for broken hitboxes by increasing durability such that it becomes an actual dilemma on where you should shoot it.

Like, before the Hunchback's RT buff, it probably made sense to just blow away the RT every single time and then forget about him until you cleaned up all the higher priority / more dangerous targets. It's a matter of effort vs effect, you can remove all that enemy firepower by dealing <= 70 damage to that shoulder. Now that the RT is actually tougher than the CT, it might make more sense to just outright try to CT-core the scrappy little HBK.

Or the Quickdraw. They added more hitpoints to the legs but I'm not sure it's enough to compensate. But theoretically they could just keep piling ghost hitpoints into the Quickdraw's legs until it makes more sense to shoot at the body, at least in some situations. I mean, imagine they gave the Quickdraw's legs 9000 hitpoints each. At that point, yeah no one will ever shoot its legs on purpose anymore.

But, I gotta say I'm not a huge fan of ghost hitpoints. I'd rather see percentage-based damage mitigation. Ghost hitpoints are given away for free, essentially, but if it's a percentage-based damage-mitigation, you still have to actually add armor to your mech's body parts to reap the benefit. 200% of 0 armor is still 0 armor. If I want to take advantage of a quirk that lets me soak up twice as much damage to a body part (50% damage mitigation quirk, for example), I still have to at least add armor there to get the benefit.

[F4T 4L]

Rouken, on 13 February 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

I'd look to someone like Gary Kasparov to see how balanced Chess is. I'd look to Joe with less than a 1300 Elo to determine how accessible the game is. I would not conclude that the four move check mate is OP because Joe falls for it every time.

Really contrived analogy.

Folk playing those mechs aren't necessarily idiots, they may just want a challenge, like to be different, whatever.

If data from those, relatively few, folk is all PGI has, it follows that that's what'll be used for the first balance pass.

[Ace Selin]

TBR and SCR are OP and need to be adjusted down to parity.

[Sjorpha]

I think one of the better ideas regarding Clan vs. IS general balance is to double IS internal structure across the board. It has the following virtues:

It balances without causing more weapon power creep.

It decreases TTK.

It's an alternative to negative quirks on the best clan mechs, and an alternative to stupid gimmick quirks on IS mechs.

It would make IS mechs survive longer in a severly wounded state, which would be immersive and give more of that feeling that your mech is falling apart around you but refusing to die.

It would increase the role of critical hits and destroyed equipment.

Another very good thing to combine with that for balance would be giving the IS melee attacks (only for mechs with hands).

[Soy]

Clan is supposed to be op. It's not op enough (in a practical sense).

I think the majority of issues are related to the linear implementation of Clantech and their mechs. This limitation has funneled people into min/maxing only a couple of chassis, one is obvious, the other is just broken hit box that steeringwheel underhivers can handle easily. Lasers are low skill floor... easy to use + not many options. That's the reason for prevalence.

Off top of my head, within span of a minute, here's what I would do (notice none of my suggestions tie directly to wep balance or changing dmg mechanics, least wave ripple):

Mist Lynx, unlock the CAP. Possibly unlock forced max JJs.
Kit Fox, improve speed by 5-10 kph.
Adder, unlock Flamer point on head.
Nova, 5-10 kph increase, 8 more hp to each arm. Possibly unlock forced max JJs. Or, nothing at all but unlink spls with sls, mpls with mls (only mech truly feeling that).
Summoner, 5 kph increase, arm/hand actuators retained in hand if using PPC or large ballistic in arms.
Gargoyle, oh sheesh... I dunno, bit more armor or tweak hit box.
* Storm Crow - fix hit box [nerf], gg

Edited by Soy, 14 February 2015 - 04:49 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

kapusta11, on 13 February 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Clan TECH is OP, I mean lasers and Gauss (you'll notice it when dual gauss capable heavies will be released), The TBR and SCR themselves are fine.

Jup, true. And the TT and actually the Battletech universe balances that with an advantage of numbers the IS has over the Clans (and the Clan honour code).
You cannot enforce an honour code. However, you could, similar to the TT systems assign combat values to mechs. That way the teams in random mode or CW who field IS Mechs had the advantage of numbers.

[Soy]

Bush Hopper, on 14 February 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

You cannot enforce an honour code. However, you could, similar to the TT systems assign combat values to mechs. That way the teams in random mode or CW who field IS Mechs had the advantage of numbers.

This is the true elephant in the room, the ultimate caveat that causes balance issues.

I said years ago, that it should've been factionalized and just straight 12 IS vs 10 Clan, that's the best way I can think of to force some sort of legitimate imbalance upon the game while maintaining 'fairness'.

But that was a pipe dream, and now the two must be balanced through mechanics. Very difficult to do when the entire thing is based around Clans being op as a fundamental principle.

[kapusta11]

Bush Hopper, on 14 February 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Jup, true. And the TT and actually the Battletech universe balances that with an advantage of numbers the IS has over the Clans (and the Clan honour code).
You cannot enforce an honour code. However, you could, similar to the TT systems assign combat values to mechs. That way the teams in random mode or CW who field IS Mechs had the advantage of numbers.

PGI stated that they want to balance clan tech 1:1 to fit 12vs12 games and not creating "elite" and "cannon fodder" groups of players.