199 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Wolfiac, on 26 February 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

Nonsense? How does an experienced IS Company stop an experienced Clan Company if the Clan Company is in attack mode and rushing Sulphurous with TW's and SC's, 6 from each side? How? Their speed and ability to absorb punishment makes it absolutely impossible without luck, or a server meltdown.

Sulfur is near impossible to defend is the enemy knows what they are doing.

How does the clan stop 4 lights from taking GEN1 while 8 assaults take over C2 and kill two gens and Omega while camping the dropship.

[Gyrok]

Jakob Knight, on 22 February 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

-snip-

As far as the Clan vrs IS debate goes, it is still very clear that a well-coordinated Clan force will almost always win over a well-coordinated IS force because the advantages of Clan technology outweigh the Inner Sphere units by too many areas, even with the quirks (and we've seen that a mech like the TDR-9S that reaches parity with them will be nerfed until it isn't). Until there are some across-the-board negative quirks put in that bring Clan mechs down to the level of their Inner Sphere equivalents, that is what will be the case.

Of course, the recent comment during the Town Hall meeting about granting the Inner Sphere force a tonnage advantage (10 tons is laughable, as it makes no real difference compared to the major advantages given by Clantech, but I am hopeful it will increase at some point) would seem to indicate the Devs have abandoned their viewpoint that Clantech can be made equal but not better than Inner Sphere tech, so it may be the Clans will remain without nerfing and the Inner Sphere will simply have to make do with whatever they can get from their quirks.

While I agree with the first half...

This part is a bad joke...do you even play the game? You most certainly must not be a high level player to have that opinion.

I promise you, we lose to 228th as often in Clan vs Clan as we do in Clan vs IS. The numbers are basically the same, that goes for the other top tier units. In fact, truth be told, we have beaten MS a few more times when they were Clans versus when they were IS. We still have a losing record against them, however, we have still won more when they were Clans.

LOL @ the ignorance toward the reality of the situation.

GG understanding game mechanics. You should go read the "Why IS tech is OP" thread in this very section...good stuff...you might learn something. In fact, I hope you do learn something.

EDIT: In case you are lazy: http://mwomercs.com/...-is-tech-is-op/

Edited by Gyrok, 26 February 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[RubyFire]

The disparity between IS and Clan technology is only as apparent as the skill involved between the pilots. Neither are OP - the meta supports builds that excel at the objective they were designed to perform. The only thing that is OP is teamwork.

[Gyrok]

Z3R0 0N3, on 26 February 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

The disparity between IS and Clan technology is only as apparent as the skill involved between the pilots. Neither are OP - the meta supports builds that excel at the objective they were designed to perform. The only thing that is OP is teamwork.

*DING DING DING* We have a winner!!!!!!!!!!

"Tell him what he has won Johnny!"

"ALL THE INTARWEBZ!!!111!!!"

Seriously...why do so many hide behind their crutches of blaming something besides themselves and their team mates?

[krash27]

Gyrok, on 26 February 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

*DING DING DING* We have a winner!!!!!!!!!!

"Tell him what he has won Johnny!"

"ALL THE INTARWEBZ!!!111!!!"

Seriously...why do so many hide behind their crutches of blaming something besides themselves and their team mates?

Because top end comp players are constantly saying on the NGNG casts that clan tech is still OP.
So when we have comp players admitting it is OP how are we to believe otherwise?

[Gyrok]

krash27, on 26 February 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

Because top end comp players are constantly saying on the NGNG casts that clan tech is still OP.
So when we have comp players admitting it is OP how are we to believe otherwise?

LOL...a few top level comp players are saying that. They are also terrible at maths...and extremely biased.

Edited by Gyrok, 26 February 2015 - 03:12 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Gyrok, on 26 February 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

LOL...a few top level comp players are saying that. They are also terrible at maths...and extremely biased.

The best players in the game all agree that clans are OP.
Most 'for fun' ladders and tournaments restrict clan mechs in some capacity.
Heimdelight, the most consistent modern top tier player, will break out in random rants about clantech and how it's OP, and the bandaid fixes need to stop.

[Kjudoon]

I know this much, giving a tonnage boost to IS versus clan is not the cure in CW.

I think a 3 mech drop deck for clans would equalize much if we can't do a 12v10.

[krash27]

Gyrok, on 26 February 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

LOL...a few top level comp players are saying that. They are also terrible at maths...and extremely biased.

As Vassago states above, the best players in the game agree that clans are OP.
These are the guys and gals that I trust, the true cutting edge of the games competitive community.
I trust what they tell me because they have earned that trust through experimentation and hard facts.
Terrible at maths you say they are? You should really have a look at some of the controlled experiments they have performed over the years with this game. As they like to say "science will be done".
Incredible the lengths these guys go to.
At the risk of offending you, please provide your evidence and facts, because I guarantee these guys can and will if asked.

[Gyrok]

krash27, on 26 February 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

As Vassago states above, the best players in the game agree that clans are OP.
These are the guys and gals that I trust, the true cutting edge of the games competitive community.
I trust what they tell me because they have earned that trust through experimentation and hard facts.
Terrible at maths you say they are? You should really have a look at some of the controlled experiments they have performed over the years with this game. As they like to say "science will be done".
Incredible the lengths these guys go to.
At the risk of offending you, please provide your evidence and facts, because I guarantee these guys can and will if asked.

Actually, I have asked them for months on reddit to provide any information about how clans are OP. You know what evidence they provided? "Instinct", "gut reaction", "I think they are..."

That is what you get. Not one single person can sit down and provide a hard, fully inclusive, concrete case that covers greater than 75% of the things that go into mech evaluation with valuable objective observation about real mechanics and specs with commentary free from bias.

The guys you say will provide evidence cite the reason "just because". I tried to have the intelligent discussion about it. They all hand wave anyone away (and call in the down vote bots from hell) that disagrees with their "instinct" about it...

Edited by Gyrok, 26 February 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[krash27]

Gyrok, on 26 February 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Actually, I have asked them for months on reddit to provide any information about how clans are OP. You know what evidence they provided? "Instinct", "gut reaction", "I think they are..."

That is what you get. Not one single person can sit down and provide a hard, fully inclusive, concrete case that covers greater than 75% of the things that go into mech evaluation with valuable objective observation about real mechanics and specs with commentary free from bias.

The guys you say will provide evidence cite the reason "just because". I tried to have the intelligent discussion about it. They all hand wave anyone away (and call in the down vote bots from hell) that disagrees with their "instinct" about it...

So no evidence from you?
I have seen and heard theirs on a couple occasions including on podcasts.
Thats a far cry more than your "because I said so". That would be hyperbole sir.

[Gyrok]

krash27, on 26 February 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

So no evidence from you?
I have seen and heard theirs on a couple occasions including on podcasts.
Thats a far cry more than your "because I said so". That would be hyperbole sir.

No truthfully...that is what you get...they talk briefly about a specific subject isolated from everything else on one or two occasions. However, they quit even doing it much anymore because I shot so many holes in their BS...

I will say this...no "top tier comp player" understands the game nearly as well as they think they do. They know how to play it, and what works, though many probably have these concocted ideas about "why". That is where lots of the snake oil logic comes from.

I am at work, I have a write up of the clans versus IS I am actually in the process of finishing that would put hard numbers up and specific case analysis at home that should be finished soon. If you think it will not be posted to shut all the twits up, you are mistaken.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Gyrok, on 26 February 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

No truthfully...that is what you get...they talk briefly about a specific subject isolated from everything else on one or two occasions. However, they quit even doing it much anymore because I shot so many holes in their BS...

I will say this...no "top tier comp player" understands the game nearly as well as they think they do. They know how to play it, and what works, though many probably have these concocted ideas about "why". That is where lots of the snake oil logic comes from.

I am at work, I have a write up of the clans versus IS I am actually in the process of finishing that would put hard numbers up and specific case analysis at home that should be finished soon. If you think it will not be posted to shut all the twits up, you are mistaken.

Then why is it that the best players almost exclusively use clan tech when it counts? Even they don't like that 95% of their robots are invalidated by basically what amounts to 4 mechs. I'm guessing you've never played with heim, proton, hairpiece, celyth, jager, mag, etc. As they all say the same thing: firestarter best light, crow best medium, timberwolf best heavy, whale best assault. All of the EmP, Lords, and SJR guys say the same thing. Heim and Proton rant about clan superiority and what it's doing to the game.

The IS and Clans aren't balanced. The clans own 3 of the 4 weight classes. You don't balance off the general stuff. You balance based on the best stuff by either nerfing the best stuff (whale, timber, crow, firestarter) or buffing the not best stuff until it competes.

[DaFrog]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 26 February 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

Then why is it that the best players almost exclusively use clan tech when it counts? Even they don't like that 95% of their robots are invalidated by basically what amounts to 4 mechs. I'm guessing you've never played with heim, proton, hairpiece, celyth, jager, mag, etc. As they all say the same thing: firestarter best light, crow best medium, timberwolf best heavy, whale best assault. All of the EmP, Lords, and SJR guys say the same thing. Heim and Proton rant about clan superiority and what it's doing to the game.

The IS and Clans aren't balanced. The clans own 3 of the 4 weight classes. You don't balance off the general stuff. You balance based on the best stuff by either nerfing the best stuff (whale, timber, crow, firestarter) or buffing the not best stuff until it competes.

I disagree.
The main issue is not weapons, it's physics. Remember skidding? turning a corner on ice or asphalt at 90kph...... o nyour ass inthe wall. Running through water... no you don't. Hiding behind an impossible to destroy building.... nope. So all these facts that were part of the rules of warfare, which made us love battletech, are absent from this. And I will add on top of that multiplying by 2 plus the range on most weapons.

The minute devs will put in actual physics, decent shortened weapon ranges, the lopsidedness of clan superiority will disappear. They'll still be superior, but different. Now we just have to endure being lasered to death at 1500m

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

DaFrog, on 26 February 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

I disagree.
The main issue is not weapons, it's physics. Remember skidding? turning a corner on ice or asphalt at 90kph...... o nyour ass inthe wall. Running through water... no you don't. Hiding behind an impossible to destroy building.... nope. So all these facts that were part of the rules of warfare, which made us love battletech, are absent from this. And I will add on top of that multiplying by 2 plus the range on most weapons.

The minute devs will put in actual physics, decent shortened weapon ranges, the lopsidedness of clan superiority will disappear. They'll still be superior, but different. Now we just have to endure being lasered to death at 1500m

That is absolutely irrelevant to the balance of this game. You shot for the stars and landed 15 feet away in the pond. Just stahp.

Protip: this isn't TT. It's not ever going to be TT. The sooner you understand that the sooner you'll be in a place to understand why this game is not balanced.

[jeirhart]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 26 February 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

Then why is it that the best players almost exclusively use clan tech when it counts? Even they don't like that 95% of their robots are invalidated by basically what amounts to 4 mechs. I'm guessing you've never played with heim, proton, hairpiece, celyth, jager, mag, etc. As they all say the same thing: firestarter best light, crow best medium, timberwolf best heavy, whale best assault. All of the EmP, Lords, and SJR guys say the same thing. Heim and Proton rant about clan superiority and what it's doing to the game.

The IS and Clans aren't balanced. The clans own 3 of the 4 weight classes. You don't balance off the general stuff. You balance based on the best stuff by either nerfing the best stuff (whale, timber, crow, firestarter) or buffing the not best stuff until it competes.

This is generalized though. In general the Stormcrow is better than IS mediums. In general the Timber Wolf is better IS heavies. In general the Dire Wolf is better than IS assaults. Each Clan 'mech can be beaten by IS 'mechs, especially when the skill levels and different builds are taken into battle.

Best medium laser vomit build can be put on a Stormcrow. Best medium splat spl+srm can be put on a Stormcrow. But you can not do both at the same time. Timber Wolf is considered to be better than Stormcrow by default, but what build either brings can widely change which would walk away the winner. Hell, a FS9-A can beat a Stormcrow or Timber Wolf if they focus those legs and stay out of their LOF. So what build you have and what build the enemy has can mean all the difference, especially in the hands of differently skilled players. A lot of people like to say Stormcrow is best based on a simple medium v medium fight. In a twelve versus twelve, you have to keep an eye on the larger picture. Now you have teamwork to take into account. Skill levels of the various teammates.

Honestly the biggest balance issue will remain skill level. Good teams will trounce bad teams. Good team versus good team will fall down to positioning, builds and who can capitalize on mistakes.

Please do not just rely on what the top tier competitive players bring to their 12v12 drops when considering balance. Balance can not be looked at in that vacuum and balanced purely based on what two teams bring in a single tournament.

Edited by jeirhart, 26 February 2015 - 10:44 PM.

[YCSLiesmith]

DaFrog, on 26 February 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

I disagree.
The main issue is not weapons, it's physics. Remember skidding? turning a corner on ice or asphalt at 90kph...... o nyour ass inthe wall. Running through water... no you don't. Hiding behind an impossible to destroy building.... nope. So all these facts that were part of the rules of warfare, which made us love battletech, are absent from this. And I will add on top of that multiplying by 2 plus the range on most weapons.

The minute devs will put in actual physics, decent shortened weapon ranges, the lopsidedness of clan superiority will disappear. They'll still be superior, but different. Now we just have to endure being lasered to death at 1500m

lmao 'they'll still be superior, but different' is the operative phrase here. none of the stuff you want will actually improve the balance of the game (or actually make it any better at all, your suggestions are bad).

[YCSLiesmith]

jeirhart, on 26 February 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

This is generalized though. In general the Stormcrow is better than IS mediums. In general the Timber Wolf is better IS heavies. In general the Dire Wolf is better than IS assaults. Each Clan 'mech can be beaten by IS 'mechs, especially when the skill levels and different builds are taken into battle.

Do you understand statistics at all?

yes. If I called up my mom, who has never played a videogame, I could give her a tricked out timber wolf and beat it up with a stock victor or something. But IN GENERAL, clans are superior. All things being equal, over time, clans will win in a landslide. when you want to determine when something is better than something else, you zero out all the other variables so that you can actually get meaningful results. if you want to see who is better at the game, you get two people in identical mechs in similar conditions and have them play a bunch (as in, thousands) of games in series (because one or two or a hundred games could be a fluke). If you want to find out which mech is better, you find people with similar skill levels (which the ELO algorithm is meant to do) and you watch what mechs win matches. the only people who are in a position to do that are PGI and they say clans are winning 60% of their matches. that's an enormous variance, enough to throw off the balance of the whole game. it doesn't matter who you are or what mech you're using, switch to the clan meta equivalent and you're suddenly doing dramatically better.

Edited by YCSLiesmith, 27 February 2015 - 04:55 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

First and foremost it's the lack of documentation that gives people a bad start in CW, with imbalance right after.

[Vassago Rain]

I've switched to using clanmechs almost exclusively now. The only IS robots that still get play is whatever trashmech I'm grinding at the moment, and the handful of cashmechs I've got (prison shadowhawk, atlas S).

This is just gonna get worse and worse the longer it's allowed to fester. Eventually, MWO will go full hawken balance, but instead of shotgun scouts, it'll be clan heavies and stormcrows.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 27 February 2015 - 05:17 AM.