168 replies to this topic

[Darian Graey]

Perhaps if or when another ceasefire is arranged by House Leaderships, PGI could issue a ComStar News message announcing the "breaking news." This might more quickly disseminate the information out to players PUG or House Regulars alike, at least making the current status known. Social media can be used to coordinate flash mobs, protests, other worse events, but can't be used in a videogame to say "House Davion is now in negotiations to cease aggression with party X, with X likewise in agreement, please focus future attacks via either group on party W,Y, or Z in the interim."

[Tesunie]

Scoops Kerensky, on 23 February 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

This message was given to us by Illithi Dragon during our deliberations to join the Star League:

From Ilthi Dragon (a forerunner on Star Leage)-



Despite the claim that it was not a threat, perhaps those reading through it can see how it was very easy to take it as one. It had a very chilling effect on our deliberations.

Basically, it's like any other ally treaty. "We are now allies. You attack our allies (in this case, Davion), we will have reason to attack you as response, as an attack on our allies is considered an attack on ourselves." Guess what caused WW1 and 2... And the Vietnam and Korean "Police actions".

Also, it's common sense that "If you don't join our alliance, we have no reason to help you in any official manner, as you aren't an ally. We can help you, but we don't have to." It's rather standard fair when someone is pointing out the terms of accepting or declining a request to ally.

Then, mix in some trolling, some lack of communications, etc. Suddenly actions that (depending upon when this was discussed) were never planned but were presented openly as possible consequences to either action come to happen due to other events.


So far, they didn't seem like threats to me. Just a list of possible reactions to any decisions made. Kurita decided to not join the NSL. That is their choice. However, then they pull a lot of stuff that make Marik upset and continue to attack a faction whom we are allied with. Consequences that were mentioned as possibilities come to pass, which were openly and honestly mentioned could/would happen if certain actions were taken. In this case, Kurita has continued to attack Davion and continue to put up less resistance to the Clans than they present as aggression to the IS (Davion). Upsetting Marik by recent events is only the icing on the cake to really make us want to follow through.


I'd have to say, Ilithi Dragon had a lot of foresight on possible actions. He gave fair warning. Just because he was proven correct does not mean that he had planned this all as a threat. It just means he was good at observing the current trends, predicting possible events, and saying what would happen if those events came to pass.

[Tesunie]

Darian Graey, on 23 February 2015 - 11:48 PM, said:

Perhaps if or when another ceasefire is arranged by House Leaderships, PGI could issue a ComStar News message announcing the "breaking news." This might more quickly disseminate the information out to players PUG or House Regulars alike, at least making the current status known. Social media can be used to coordinate flash mobs, protests, other worse events, but can't be used in a videogame to say "House Davion is now in negotiations to cease aggression with party X, with X likewise in agreement, please focus future attacks via either group on party W,Y, or Z in the interim."

Reminder: Faction chat is now in.

You can have volunteers "spam" the faction chat with relevant news every so often (like, every 30 minutes or something) for a day (or something). It would be relevant to the faction, and would inform everyone of new loyalties and targets.

Example: "Ignore the DC boarder today. We have agreed to a cease fire at the moment. Your targets should be X of X. Please attack/defend that world as much as possible."



This may be an "Ask PGI if the faction chat could be used in such a manner" question. Contact support anyone and ask?

[Scoops Kerensky]

Tesunie, on 23 February 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

Basically, it's like any other ally treaty. "We are now allies. You attack our allies (in this case, Davion), we will have reason to attack you as response, as an attack on our allies is considered an attack on ourselves." Guess what caused WW1 and 2... And the Vietnam and Korean "Police actions".

Also, it's common sense that "If you don't join our alliance, we have no reason to help you in any official manner, as you aren't an ally. We can help you, but we don't have to." It's rather standard fair when someone is pointing out the terms of accepting or declining a request to ally.

Then, mix in some trolling, some lack of communications, etc. Suddenly actions that (depending upon when this was discussed) were never planned but were presented openly as possible consequences to either action come to happen due to other events.


So far, they didn't seem like threats to me. Just a list of possible reactions to any decisions made. Kurita decided to not join the NSL. That is their choice. However, then they pull a lot of stuff that make Marik upset and continue to attack a faction whom we are allied with. Consequences that were mentioned as possibilities come to pass, which were openly and honestly mentioned could/would happen if certain actions were taken. In this case, Kurita has continued to attack Davion and continue to put up less resistance to the Clans than they present as aggression to the IS (Davion). Upsetting Marik by recent events is only the icing on the cake to really make us want to follow through.


I'd have to say, Ilithi Dragon had a lot of foresight on possible actions. He gave fair warning. Just because he was proven correct does not mean that he had planned this all as a threat. It just means he was good at observing the current trends, predicting possible events, and saying what would happen if those events came to pass.

But isn't that hypocritical? Neither Marik nor Liao, both signatories to the star league, have slowed down eating Davion planets either, despite being allies. Why exactly does Kurita deserve to be singled out for something we're all doing?

Edited by Scoops Kerensky, 24 February 2015 - 12:07 AM.

[Stormthorn]

Scoops Kerensky, on 24 February 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

But isn't that hypocritical? Neither Marik nor Liao, both signatories to the star league, have slowed down eating Davion planets either, despite being allies. Why exactly does Kurita deserve to be singled out for something we're all doing?

Because we aren't part of the nSL. If Marik says you can do it, you can do it. There's a league that says they can do whatever they want. If we joined, I wouldn't have been surprised if nSL said something like "you know what, we need to burrow though Kurita. We will be taking your planets."

What if Davion said "we dont want Marik and Liao taking more planets even though it helps fight the clans." nSL could say "well, if you don't do it, you aren't part of the league and we will have to take them anyways."

That sounds like the same mentaility that was in the message Scoops posted.

Edited by Stormthorn, 24 February 2015 - 12:18 AM.

[Davers]

Scoops Kerensky, on 23 February 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

This message was given to us by Illithi Dragon during our deliberations to join the Star League:

From Ilthi Dragon (a forerunner on Star Leage)-



Despite the claim that it was not a threat, perhaps those reading through it can see how it was easy to take it as one. It had a very chilling effect on our deliberations.

I had not seen that, or at least I do not remember seeing that.

Tesunie, on 23 February 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

Basically, it's like any other ally treaty. "We are now allies. You attack our allies (in this case, Davion), we will have reason to attack you as response, as an attack on our allies is considered an attack on ourselves." Guess what caused WW1 and 2... And the Vietnam and Korean "Police actions".

Also, it's common sense that "If you don't join our alliance, we have no reason to help you in any official manner, as you aren't an ally. We can help you, but we don't have to." It's rather standard fair when someone is pointing out the terms of accepting or declining a request to ally.

Then, mix in some trolling, some lack of communications, etc. Suddenly actions that (depending upon when this was discussed) were never planned but were presented openly as possible consequences to either action come to happen due to other events.


So far, they didn't seem like threats to me. Just a list of possible reactions to any decisions made. Kurita decided to not join the NSL. That is their choice. However, then they pull a lot of stuff that make Marik upset and continue to attack a faction whom we are allied with. Consequences that were mentioned as possibilities come to pass, which were openly and honestly mentioned could/would happen if certain actions were taken. In this case, Kurita has continued to attack Davion and continue to put up less resistance to the Clans than they present as aggression to the IS (Davion). Upsetting Marik by recent events is only the icing on the cake to really make us want to follow through.


I'd have to say, Ilithi Dragon had a lot of foresight on possible actions. He gave fair warning. Just because he was proven correct does not mean that he had planned this all as a threat. It just means he was good at observing the current trends, predicting possible events, and saying what would happen if those events came to pass.

The second and third paragraphs very clearly state 'If you attack Davion, Marik would love to fight you'. (I guess Steiner/FRR as well)


But then the whole argument circles around- Kurita sees this as a major factor in their deliberations, yet within a few days they themselves decide all on their own that they don't want to fight Davion/Steiner/FRR and want to fight the Clans. In essence, accepting every tenet of the nSL. Hey guys, if you didn't want to go to meetings you could have just said so.

[Scoops Kerensky]

We like being able to fight both IS and clans, and are alright with switching focus to one or the other from time to time. The star league forbids any serious intra-IS fighting, and I think your factions are showing through their actions, if not their words, that they ultimately feel the same way we do.

[Tesunie]

Scoops Kerensky, on 24 February 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

But isn't that hypocritical? Neither Marik nor Liao, both signatories to the star league, have slowed down eating Davion planets either, despite being allies. Why exactly does Kurita deserve to be singled out for something we're all doing?

I believe Davion was letting us take worlds to connect Marik proper to Purple Dragon Island, to make the attack path start moving up on it instead of down. However, now at least, I believe (and could be wrong) that Davion is letting Marik attack and take worlds to finish that connection, so we can place some personal pressure as a faction against you, which in the long run helps Davion by diverting troops from their boarders. (Part of war strategy.)

It makes tactical sense. Remember, we all were working on getting a southern house to have as easy of a chance getting a clan front. Marik wormhole was our best chance. And just like what we were going to do for you, where once we contact the clans and start to be able to attack, all the worlds behind us could then be taken. A lot of effort and cooperation went into that wormhole project. Guess part of the reason it's such a sour subject.

No idea about Liao though... Maybe Davion is letting them retake some of their lost worlds, as the attack paths let them?


So, by your own actions and decisions, we are now at the crossroads we are currently at. It is not too late for peace to be achieved. However, it does become harder and harder to gain as the fighting becomes more and more intense. At this point, I think Kuritain High Command needs to work at rebuilding their reputations and gain back the respect from the other houses. Respect is a very important thing.

We can still work together. It's not too late. But it will not be easy and a lot of work would need to be done to patch things up. A cease fire from Kurita on Davion, and letting Davion reclaim some (not all) of their worlds back would be a start. (Seen as one of the big problems with the current request for a cease fire seemed to be the distance of the Kuritain boarder to Robinson, I think it's a reasonable request to let them reclaim some of those worlds and create a small buffer zone around that planet. technicalities could be worked out later.) I have a feeling this action, alone, may well even stop the Marik movements of aggression against Kurita. It will at least give them pause to think and consider. (I can't speak for them though, of course.)


PS: I think you quoted the wrong post? Your response seems as a strange reaction to that specific post... Using the Faction Chat in game to inform units/PUGs of High Command's requests (which is what it is) on attack options would be a great way to inform everyone in the faction of the latest places to be aggressive at. This prevents loyal units from "oopsie, we didn't get told in time" and give any PUGs some goals to aim for. Anyone who wishes to ignore it, will do so anyway, but at least then they will be informed. It also lets everyone know where the action will be found, making finding matches easier.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Yeah, that was a misquote on the earlier post, my bad.

[Tesunie]

Scoops Kerensky, on 24 February 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

We like being able to fight both IS and clans, and are alright with switching focus to one or the other from time to time. The star league forbids any serious intra-IS fighting, and I think your factions are showing through their actions, if not their words, that they ultimately feel the same way we do.

Thing is, "aggression" between houses could still be maintained, just diminished. Those that wish to attack IS vs IS could possibly set up matches between specific units. They would fight on a world, and they could fight a few matches. Stop short of being able to cap the world and the other house could ghost cap it back if needed.

The planet could even be fought till it changed, and then permitted to be taken back next attack phase.

With enough communications, requests for many options could be sent from one faction to another. Just because you are an ally doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to fight other houses at all. It would just change the way it would need to be done is all.

Basically, imagine it being a tug of war over one or two planets. Let those planets move back and forth, and thus there is fighting, but no one faction really gets hurt over the fighting.


Does this make any sense? (I should go to bed... like an hour ago...)

[Scoops Kerensky]

That's still a double standard you're pushing. It was fine for Marik to hold as many worlds from Davion that it does, for Liao to continue expanding through of FS space at will, but Kurita alone is the bad one for doing so, despite being the only one of the three houses to not take any 'important' planets from Davion.

The wormhole is Marik's hope, but what kind of hope demands that their ally surrender massive swathes of territory to them just so their playerbase can launch offensive attacks on the clans? That's an incredible waste of time and manpower when you could just switch to a faction that can already push offensives, not to mention you can keep helping us hold planets.

It's things like this that make more Kuritans and outsiders everyday see Marik as the bully in this scenario, who use the nSL as justification for their own personal gain at everyone else's expense.

[Davers]

Scoops Kerensky, on 24 February 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

We like being able to fight both IS and clans, and are alright with switching focus to one or the other from time to time. The star league forbids any serious intra-IS fighting, and I think your factions are showing through their actions, if not their words, that they ultimately feel the same way we do.

The nSL clearly isn't designed to end all IS vs IS warfare- or it would have already fallen apart.

[Benjamin Davion]

I don't have the time to read all 6 pages of this post, but I will say this: I have been one of the loudest advocates in the AFFS in support of the nSL and in support of an Inner Sphere truce to fight the clans, from DAY ONE. I've lead well over a dozen successful battles in defense against Clan Smoke Jaguar on the Kurita front, also fighting off Ghost Bear and Wolf in Rasalhague and Jade Falcon in Steiner. Twice, I have been fighting on the Kurita front, only to realize that Kurita pilots were streaming over Davion borders to the south. Since then, I will not fight to defend Kurita until something changes.

Further, the conduct of members of NKVA and other Kurita pilots has been so utterly deplorable as to render any meaningful dialogue pointless. I have respect for NS, 9SD, and other Kurita units I've encountered and have cultivated a diplomatic relationship with 9SD, but the behavior of groups like NKVA is a stain on the reputation of everyone who flies the Kurita flag.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Tesunie, on 24 February 2015 - 12:36 AM, said:

Does this make any sense? (I should go to bed... like an hour ago...)

Me as well. I hope even if we have differences that Marik and Kuritan posters continue the dialogue here. I believe that what we do in this beta is temporary, but its important that we understand each other even as I'm sure we'll inevitably start attacking each other soon.

[Stormthorn]

Well, we gave Davion a chance for a ceasefire. You say it is not too late but the last few days say otherwise. We even didn't fight the Davion border for the last few days until Davion put up at least two twelve mans for a decent amount of time.

.

Davers, on 24 February 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

The nSL clearly isn't designed to end all IS vs IS warfare- or it would have already fallen apart.

But it is okay to demand Kurita to stop fighting and even surrender planets to Davion?

[Scoops Kerensky]

Benjamin Davion, on 24 February 2015 - 12:40 AM, said:

I don't have the time to read all 6 pages of this post, but I will say this: I have been one of the loudest advocates in the AFFS in support of the nSL and in support of an Inner Sphere truce to fight the clans, from DAY ONE. I've lead well over a dozen successful battles in defense against Clan Smoke Jaguar on the Kurita front, also fighting off Ghost Bear and Wolf in Rasalhague and Jade Falcon in Steiner. Twice, I have been fighting on the Kurita front, only to realize that Kurita pilots were streaming over Davion borders to the south. Since then, I will not fight to defend Kurita until something changes.

Further, the conduct of members of NKVA and other Kurita pilots has been so utterly deplorable as to render any meaningful dialogue pointless. I have respect for NS, 9SD, and other Kurita units I've encountered and have cultivated a diplomatic relationship with 9SD, but the behavior of groups like NKVA is a stain on the reputation of everyone who flies the Kurita flag.

I'm the leader of the NKVA. I don't intend to censor or police them, because as much as I enjoy video game politics, this is still ultimately a video game and there's no fun in it for myself or any of us in acting as formally as most of the community does. If you want to attack Kurita to stop it you'll be as successful in stopping our conduct as Kurita would be in seeking a ceasefire with Davion after taking Robinson.

Losing planets or matches won't make the NKVA change it's behavior or punish us, nothing you can do in this game or on these forums will as we operate within the terms of service. The only thing you can do is learn to make peace with the fact that we exist and aren't going away. House Kurita internally learned this a while ago and learned to integrate us into their plans as best they could - I'm sure you know how formidable we are personally Bejamin. Instead of decrying our behavior, find a way to use us in a productive manner against the clans.

[Benjamin Davion]

Scoops Kerensky, on 24 February 2015 - 12:49 AM, said:

I'm the leader of the NKVA. I don't intend to censor or police them, because as much as I enjoy video game politics, this is still ultimately a video game and there's no fun in it for myself or any of us in acting as formally as most of the community does. If you want to attack Kurita to stop it you'll be as successful in stopping our conduct as Kurita would be in seeking a ceasefire with Davion after taking Robinson.

Losing planets or matches won't make the NKVA change it's behavior or punish us, nothing you can do in this game or on these forums will as we operate within the terms of service. The only thing you can do is learn to make peace with the fact that we exist and aren't going away. House Kurita internally learned this a while ago and learned to integrate us into their plans as best they could - I'm sure you know how formidable we are personally Bejamin. Instead of decrying our behavior, find a way to use us in a productive manner against the clans.

Sending PM.

[Davers]

Stormthorn, on 24 February 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

Well, we gave Davion a chance for a ceasefire. You say it is not too late but the last few days say otherwise. We even didn't fight the Davion border for the last few days until Davion put up at least two twelve mans for a decent amount of time.

.

But it is okay to demand Kurita to stop fighting and even surrender planets to Davion?

[Please don't misunderstand me!

In my opinion, it is too late for a ceasefire. At this point no one wants one, and Marik is clawing it's way through Steiner space hoping to renew our front with you.

For the record, I was against the nSL. I believe that what we are currently doing- sending units to the FRR- is the most sensible course of action to defend against the Clans.

As for the wormhole eating up all of Kurita's territory, the plan ALWAYS was for Kurita to take back worlds in the rear so the 'island' would hopefully 'float up north'- not become some huge Marik territory. In fact I helped speed up Kurita's retaking of a planet on the HK servers not 2 days before this whole mess started.

The idea that people would have to give back their territory they had conquered is laughable. I know that Marik would never stand for that, and I wouldn't expect everyone else to do it either.

We can go round and round about policies and politics all day and point fingers at each other. But the reason why there will be no ceasefire and why the Clans will overrun the FRR is because seven or eight guys couldn't be respectful to each other on this forum. It really is that simple. A couple Davions, a couple Mariks, and a couple Kuritans.

Notice how no one is mad at Liao for refusing to join the nSL.

Personally, I just like fighting other units. It makes the game more fun and memorable compared to fighting pugs. I'll fight wherever the drop caller sends me. It's a game after all.

[Davers]

Benjamin Davion, on 24 February 2015 - 12:40 AM, said:

I don't have the time to read all 6 pages of this post, but I will say this: I have been one of the loudest advocates in the AFFS in support of the nSL and in support of an Inner Sphere truce to fight the clans, from DAY ONE. I've lead well over a dozen successful battles in defense against Clan Smoke Jaguar on the Kurita front, also fighting off Ghost Bear and Wolf in Rasalhague and Jade Falcon in Steiner. Twice, I have been fighting on the Kurita front, only to realize that Kurita pilots were streaming over Davion borders to the south. Since then, I will not fight to defend Kurita until something changes.

Further, the conduct of members of NKVA and other Kurita pilots has been so utterly deplorable as to render any meaningful dialogue pointless. I have respect for NS, 9SD, and other Kurita units I've encountered and have cultivated a diplomatic relationship with 9SD, but the behavior of groups like NKVA is a stain on the reputation of everyone who flies the Kurita flag.

Unless Loyalist rewards completely change, I have an idea for after the reset.

No one in the southern house units takes a permanent contract. Everyone splits their time between their 'home faction' and a northern one. That way the northern houses will always have units to attack the Clans.

[MischiefSC]

Stormthorn, on 24 February 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

Because we aren't part of the nSL. If Marik says you can do it, you can do it. There's a league that says they can do whatever they want. If we joined, I wouldn't have been surprised if nSL said something like "you know what, we need to burrow though Kurita. We will be taking your planets."

What if Davion said "we dont want Marik and Liao taking more planets even though it helps fight the clans." nSL could say "well, if you don't do it, you aren't part of the league and we will have to take them anyways."

That sounds like the same mentaility that was in the message Scoops posted.

Marik and Davion are trading worlds for a reason, not hard to guess at. We've got a good relationship with Marik at this point, they've been consistent in their communication with us and kept up with everything they've said they would. Even our fights are fun and good spirited. I suspect what most of us would like would be to settle out the clans then go back to regular border skirmishes, just because we enjoy playing against each other.

Liao had some people join the nSL but there's a significant group of people in Liao who went to Liao so they wouldn't have to fight the Clans, all they want is to fight Davion. That's it. Essentially Davion has to pay a 'Liao Tax' in drops and units periodically. If it turns into more than an irritation we can shift 100 people there for a few days, take worlds on 2 of 3 CF, roll them back a while and then go back to elsewhere. They have absolutely no interest in peace with Davion for any reason at any time. We were told by some people there we were *foolish* for not constantly pummeling Liao down all the way back to their homeworld because they'll just use that opportunity to attack Davion more.

Go read the Liao forums. Davion will never be that stupid about Kurita. There's not going to be a 90 or 100 day slump in either Kurita or Davion populations so deep and so one-sided that either is actually going to get completely rolled back. There is no conceivable, imaginable potentiality of Davion being conquered by Liao/Kurita, especially now that Marik/Davion are in a pretty steady relationship. Just like there's no realistic view of Kurita being wiped out save for Luthien. May have been at one point prior to the Kurita Council but population shifts, shifting borders to create new IS/Clan borders, everything else involved is going to contribute to a change in priorities long, long before either situation ever comes up.

Yet Liao will always have a couple 12mans queuing on Davions border regardless of anything else that happens in the game. They're a 'tax' in manpower Davion has to pay periodically. Even at our deepest slump we could still handle Liao in 2 out of 3 ceasefires but hope springs eternal I guess.

So the nSL was always going to be a tricky thing. As a faction that's juggled a lot of ceasefires Davion understands that sometimes pugs or false flag events or whatever come up and there's some cross border action, that doesn't constitute a breach of the agreement.

Another big thing that will happen in time is, well, time and an appreciation of it. Everyone sees tiny fluxes in population, focus, attention and immediately assumes it's going to be exactly like it is today, forever. A couple week shift in border strength one way or the other isn't that relevant in the long game. New alliances or broken ones are. As people come to learn that from experience I think their willingness to create IS alliances vs the Clans will grow and inter-faction fights between the big IS factions will get more ritualized and limited.