273 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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I have no idea what Khobai is even talking about anymore.

You cant fathom that a mech with jumpjets has an advantage over mechs without jumpjets?

Essentially what I said was that if you buff jumpjets you also need to buff mechs without jumpjets.

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Let's see, in the case of a mech like the Heavy Metal, about 10 tons more weapons?

Except the heavy metal is hardly in the sweet spot for jumpjet tonnage as it pays 2 tons per jumpjet. Its not the 90+ ton mechs that concern me. Its the ones that are 89 tons and less. Im talking more specifically about mechs that only have to spend 0.5-1 ton per jumpjet.

Tonnage alone does not balance jumpjets. If it did then thered be just as much reason to use jumpjets as there is not to use them. But seeing as how nearly every jumpjet capable mech takes jumpjets the tonnage cost is obviously not a balancing point.

The tonnage cost is trivial at best. There needs to be something more to balance them.

Edited by Khobai, 01 March 2015 - 11:42 AM.

[YueFei]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Besides the entire concept of jumpjets lifting mechs that weigh dozens of tons is absurd. Anyone with a basic understanding of physics could tell you the force required is simply not feasible. Even for a game its ridiculous.

Not that realism has anything to do with this since mechs are ridiculous anyways, but dId you realize modern-day fighters weigh upwards of 30 tons and have thrust-to-weight ratios greater than 1 (meaning they can accelerate while in the vertical)?

[Xetelian]

Please give us back JUMP jets and just make the screen shake on the way down...

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

You cant fathom that a mech with jumpjets has an advantage over mechs without jumpjets?

Essentially what I said was that if you buff jumpjets you also need to buff mechs without jumpjets.

and in mechs over 55 tons the weight tradeoff already does that, with JJs no longer giving you free thrust for 1-.2 JJs.

Lighter mechs will get more distance, but little else for it. So the balance tradeoff below 55 ons is minimal. Was hardly game breaking before the nerfs, which is why so many people even stripped ALL the JJs off non poptarting mechs for more weapons.

But hey, if you had actually played back then, you would know that.

[Armorine]

Xetelian, on 01 March 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Please give us back JUMP jets and just make the screen shake on the way down...

and up. You get a sweet spot at the top

[Bishop Steiner]

Armorine, on 01 March 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

and up. You get a sweet spot at the top

well, the idea, is that it doesn't stop, at the top, lol. Or shouldn't.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Give JJs an initial huge burst of acceleration upward and forward. Have it consume half the fuel in the initial jump, and save the other half for feathering to slow your subsequent fall. Impose dynamic precision reduction when you jump, and have it decay as you're in the air to prevent the old jump-fire-jump pattern of pop-tarting from recurring.

Have both the initial jump height and the amount of feathering you can get out of a given % of fuel scale linearly with the number of JJs.

[Sarlic]

Please fix the darn JJ animation first. I don't have high hopes for it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sarlic, on 01 March 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Please fix the darn JJ animation first. I don't have high hopes for it.

This, is indeed a valid point, though one that I don't think is hugely exacerbated by better JJs. It seems more an issue when people are doing the "ground feathering", as at least back when Spiders soared like eagles, they were actually EASIER to hit while in midair.

[Khobai]

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and in mechs over 55 tons the weight tradeoff already does that, with JJs no longer giving you free thrust for 1-.2 JJs.

Again the weight tradeoff is trivial at best. If your buffs went through, youd would rarely if ever see a JJ capable 55 tonner that chooses not to use jumpjets. Because the advantages jumpjets provide are better than the disadvantages of losing a few tons. A few tons is NOTHING compared to the added mobility of JJs.

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Not that realism has anything to do with this since mechs are ridiculous anyways, but dId you realize modern-day fighters weigh upwards of 30 tons and have thrust-to-weight ratios greater than 1 (meaning they can accelerate while in the vertical)?

Except mechs arnt fighters? if they were battletech wouldnt need aerospace fighters. If abrams tanks could fly you might have a good analogy. Abrams tanks flying around is about as ridiculous as a 60+ ton mech flying around. For now we just have to accept that JJs work because of "space magic".

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Give JJs an initial huge burst of acceleration upward and forward. Have it consume half the fuel in the initial jump, and save the other half for feathering to slow your subsequent fall. Impose dynamic precision reduction when you jump, and have it decay as you're in the air to prevent the old jump-fire-jump pattern of pop-tarting from recurring.

Have both the initial jump height and the amount of feathering you can get out of a given % of fuel scale linearly with the number of JJs.

While this would certainly be better than what we have now the chances of it happening are pretty much zero.

Edited by Khobai, 01 March 2015 - 11:58 AM.

[Bullseye69]

The ju p jet nerf on the Victor and the highlander came in 2 parts if no one remembers. They adjust the jump jets on those 2 mech and then applied another jump jet nerf to all mech after that. The reason that light and medium and heavy are not affected so much was because they were not included in that first patch that was targeted only to the victor and the highlander mechs. Roll back those first changes and let see how they work after that, If i equip max jump jets on my highlander and my heavy metal then I should get max thrust since i am spending 2 ton per jump jets. We need our mechs to have there jump mobility back that was the only reason to take the highlander over a ground pounder was the jump jets gave it a better mobility than it would have. It made the highlander a viable brawler mech, i never invested in the victor because by then the nerf had neuter them to along with the reduced cbills pay out it make earning cbills a grind so I don't buy a lot of mechs. PGI loss since I really have no need to buy MC for more mech bays only spend mc on the hero mech which is few and far between.

One thing I would point out from the MWLL video that was linked in this post the Solaris areanand broken vista I think it was called I want that map in the game I loved the terrain it makes lights and mediums shine since there mobility it so much better than assualts. I am at a loss on how come that mod with the crysis wars can have so much more maps and what we have now is not so much maps and a lack of viable terrain. I know they increasing there maps but may they need a sub contract some more maps from the guy who did that map. I love the CW new map but I can;t play it in a regular 12. How about testing the vicablity of adding hellbore spring just the way it is into 12 man you could add it only assualt and skirmish or just skirmish and would have to do anything at all to it. Donlt reduce the size of it but give the community a chance to play it for a month or two and then let us vote on it.


But for the love of everything mechwarrior gove me my highlander jumping back i am tired of this Mart Mcfly hover board crap that we have now.

[stjobe]

I found - to my amazement - that a PNT-10K with a full complement of 8 JJs can actually run of a cliff, start falling downwards, and... wait for it... wait for it... actually reverse that fall and gain altitude.

That's impossible with just 4 JJs on the same 'mech. Once you start gaining speed towards the ground, you can only slow down that speed, never reverse it. Which means it's only the 10K that can do it, the other variants have a max of 4 JJs.

That's 4 JJs, that are supposed to be able to propel the 'mech 120 meters, not being able to reverse a fall once it starts.

There's something very wrong with PGI's physics model.

Edited by stjobe, 01 March 2015 - 12:26 PM.

[J0anna]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Yup. Even though I think a fair number of people were full of crap about the cockpit shake/motion sickness, some likely were legit, and the reticle shake seems a nice compromise. HAven't really seen many posts about it since that change.

Well I can't talk about others, but I know for myself, that after a few games with jumping mechs, I would have a splitting headache when cockpit shake was first introduced. The reticle shake is fine, as you don't need to look at it, but not looking at the screen isn't an wise move. You're welcome to look at my old posts, where I said I'd rather PGI removed the ability to shoot if not on the ground. I'm glad they changed it.

As for your proposal, I like your 1 second shake suggestion, but I would also suggest changing JJ thrust from increasing linearly as you add more JJ's, to increasing exponentially. Thus 1xJJ would be fairly useless, 2xjj would be good for clearing moderate hurdles, 3xJJ allow more significant jumps, with 4xjj (or more) required for jumping over buildings, etc. This way you're given a choice of just increasing mobility vice being able to significantly move, but giving up weight for it. However, I too agree the 'hover jet' mechanic has to go, even if it means they remove the ability to shoot when not on the ground.

[Soy]

Why insist on calling it a plague?

It was a lot more fun than hitscanning. It took at least a bit more piloting interaction than boulder rocking.

I'm poptarting all day when I play, what exactly is the problem?

[Bishop Steiner]

Moenrg, on 01 March 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

Well I can't talk about others, but I know for myself, that after a few games with jumping mechs, I would have a splitting headache when cockpit shake was first introduced. The reticle shake is fine, as you don't need to look at it, but not looking at the screen isn't an wise move. You're welcome to look at my old posts, where I said I'd rather PGI removed the ability to shoot if not on the ground. I'm glad they changed it.

As for your proposal, I like your 1 second shake suggestion, but I would also suggest changing JJ thrust from increasing linearly as you add more JJ's, to increasing exponentially. Thus 1xJJ would be fairly useless, 2xjj would be good for clearing moderate hurdles, 3xJJ allow more significant jumps, with 4xjj (or more) required for jumping over buildings, etc. This way you're given a choice of just increasing mobility vice being able to significantly move, but giving up weight for it. However, I too agree the 'hover jet' mechanic has to go, even if it means they remove the ability to shoot when not on the ground.

certainly not a bad idea, I dunno the complexities of the programming, guessing compared to a lot of stuff, pretty minor, but yeah. 1JJ should be nearly useless, IMO, 2 decent for hopping little terrain pieces, and so forth. Though some of that might also depend a bit on the mech. After all, the Urbanmech came with just 2 JJs.... which at 60 meters, was more than enough to clear most buildings in a city. Obviously now, they are next to useless. But perhaps those discrepancies are a good place to look to for quirks?

[Soy]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

1JJ should be nearly useless, IMO, 2 decent for hopping little terrain pieces, and so forth. Though some of that might also depend a bit on the mech.

...this is how it currently is... Are you trying to scale buildings in a ******* Highlander..?

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Why insist on calling it a plague?

It was a lot more fun than hitscanning. It took at least a bit more piloting interaction than boulder rocking.

I'm poptarting all day when I play, what exactly is the problem?

just because you liked it? Doesn't mean most people agreed. Also, the way jumpsniping was done at Comp Lvl, vs the way it was seen by the masses? LORDs and SJR for example, might have jump sniped a lot, but always mobile, always moving forward. The game most of the player base saw? Even more stagnant on the mobility edge than now, with stationary Poptart fests based around the largest notable terrain feature. Featuring 2-3 chassis, and 2 weapons.

That sir, I hate to say, is stagnant, and boring and yes, a plague.

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

...this is how it currently is... Are you trying to scale buildings in a ******* Highlander..?

Since right now it wouldn't even be able to do a Highlander's Burial if melee was implemented? Yeah. with 6-10 tons devoted to JJs, you dang well should get some lift for your investment. Are you trying to say that they were somehow OP before? (Sans the Poptart issue?)

[Soy]

So because most people can't even walk and shoot at the same time, it's a plague for them?

I think their lack of skill is their real condition, but whatever. Not gonna argue semantics.

Point is, tarting never died. And rightly so. It does take more skill than boulder rocking, and always has.

[YueFei]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

Except mechs arnt fighters? if they were battletech wouldnt need aerospace fighters. If abrams tanks could fly you might have a good analogy. Abrams tanks flying around is about as ridiculous as a 60+ ton mech flying around. For now we just have to accept that JJs work because of "space magic".

Why is space magic required, when modern day jets already provide thrust that can lift 30+ ton vehicles into the air. And not through aerodynamic lift, either, since it's a greater than 1 to 1 thrust to weight ratio, so it's not like the wings even matter. And these enginese can maintain that level of thrust for several minutes, not just for a few seconds.

You don't find it plausible that perhaps 1000 years in the future they will have jets capable of briefly lifting vehicles weighing dozens of tons into the air, and I'm saying it's perfectly reasonable given that we produce jet engines today that can do it for several minutes.

Given that mechs are already ridiculous, which I already said in my first reply to you: If you can swallow the idea of using such large bipedal war machines, then refusing to believe they can jump jet is not self-consistent.

[Soy]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Since right now it wouldn't even be able to do a Highlander's Burial if melee was implemented? Yeah. with 6-10 tons devoted to JJs, you dang well should get some lift for your investment. Are you trying to say that they were somehow OP before? (Sans the Poptart issue?)

I can acquiesce to the notion that maybe bigs could use a bit more thrust if they're using max JJs. I'll give you that.