273 replies to this topic

[aniviron]

I have to disagree with the edit to the OP, that JJ heat is a good idea. It's not. I even made a thread about it.

The tl'dr is that jumpjet heat increases with the number of jumpjets you have, which means the only mechs it's an issue for are the ones with hard locked jump jets, meaning the Mist Lynx, Nova, and Summoner suffer while the Timber can just take one pod and glitch its hitboxes with no penalty. Furthermore, the heat does nothing to poptarts because they're about to drop down behind a hill, which means they have time to cool off, and can even shut down mid jump and just fall harmlessly. Brawlers, however, absolutely need the heat capacity and generally have nowhere to run since they aren't hillhumping. The Nova and Mist Lynx might as well not have jumpjets; using them in combat is suicide, as they're hot mechs already and JJing around means you're building more heat when you should be cooling down.

Ashnod, on 01 March 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

Jump jet equipped mechs should be much much more mobile than non jump jet equipped mechs... It's kinda supposed to be the point to bringing them..

They should be more mobile, but absolutely not "much much more." After poptarting was over, every single good mech still had one thing in common: jumpjets. Why? Because they were much, much more mobile. Given what a modest tonnage cost jumpjets have, if you're giving them a massive mobility advantage, there will never be a reason to play a mech that can't take jumpjets, which is most of them. This is particularly true given how bad the movement is for most mechs in MWO, getting stuck on pebbles, street curbs, cars, etc- anything without jumpjets just becomes bad.

[Soy]

aniviron, on 01 March 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

I have to disagree with the edit to the OP, that JJ heat is a good idea. It's not. I even made a thread about it.

The tl'dr is that jumpjet heat increases with the number of jumpjets you have, which means the only mechs it's an issue for are the ones with hard locked jump jets, meaning the Mist Lynx, Nova, and Summoner suffer while the Timber can just take one pod and glitch its hitboxes with no penalty. Furthermore, the heat does nothing to poptarts because they're about to drop down behind a hill, which means they have time to cool off, and can even shut down mid jump and just fall harmlessly. Brawlers, however, absolutely need the heat capacity and generally have nowhere to run since they aren't hillhumping. The Nova and Mist Lynx might as well not have jumpjets; using them in combat is suicide, as they're hot mechs already and JJing around means you're building more heat when you should be cooling down.



They should be more mobile, but absolutely not "much much more." After poptarting was over, every single good mech still had one thing in common: jumpjets. Why? Because they were much, much more mobile. Given what a modest tonnage cost jumpjets have, if you're giving them a massive mobility advantage, there will never be a reason to play a mech that can't take jumpjets, which is most of them. This is particularly true given how bad the movement is for most mechs in MWO, getting stuck on pebbles, street curbs, cars, etc- anything without jumpjets just becomes bad.

+1 this post, everything true... cept the part about Nova heat when poptarting, even then yeah you gotta wiggle around that a bit.

ps - he's also a good player, oh noes

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 05:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

+1 this post, everything true... cept the part about Nova heat when poptarting, even then yeah you gotta wiggle around that a bit.

ps - he's also a good player, oh noes

somehow I'll live with being a bad player. oh noes!

[YueFei]

aniviron, on 01 March 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

They should be more mobile, but absolutely not "much much more." After poptarting was over, every single good mech still had one thing in common: jumpjets. Why? Because they were much, much more mobile. Given what a modest tonnage cost jumpjets have, if you're giving them a massive mobility advantage, there will never be a reason to play a mech that can't take jumpjets, which is most of them. This is particularly true given how bad the movement is for most mechs in MWO, getting stuck on pebbles, street curbs, cars, etc- anything without jumpjets just becomes bad.

But I don't think that should mean that JJs can't have awesome maneuverability. I think it just shows how awful the hill climb mechanic has been implemented. I'd rather that they re-worked that to un-neuter non-JJ mechs' ability to navigate terrain, rather than neutering JJs.

Like I said earlier, prior to hill-climb restrictions, most mechs were happily popping out from all kinds of spots on the map. Even without the hill-climb restrictions, the JJ-equipped mechs still had the advantage that they could gain angles to hit enemies from certain spots on the map that non-JJ mechs just couldn't.

Easy example, take the "saddle" of Crimson Strait, from the non-platform side. A non-JJ mech has to hill-crest to fire, which would be extremely dangerous if there's several enemies looking at it... he can be hit by mechs on the platform and also mechs on the other side of the slope. A JJ-equipped mech can stand farther back, jump from behind the crest of the hill, and only expose himself to enemies on the platform, without exposing himself to any enemies that might be below the platform. By using the two large mountains on either side, he can also manipulate his exposure to which enemies on the platform.

Essentially, the dude with JJ's is like the guy up in a tower. He can lay shots on many more places on the map. WIth JJs ascending/descending, a mech with JJs can also slice the pie vertically, while non-JJ mechs can only do it horizontally.

That's enough significant advantages to having JJs already, even before hill-climb restrictions. After that dreck was introduced, the non-JJ mechs really suffered a lack of mobility.

That's only magnified in a team context. Whereas the non-JJ mechs trip over each other trying to all peek from the same damn 1 or 2 corners with 1 or 2 mechs at a time unable to maximize fire, the JJ-equipped mechs can happily concentrate fire together over the top. Very little risk of shooting a teammate in the back that way, too!

[YueFei]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Why exactly is corner peaking so risky and ineffective? It's always been a strong and viable tactic, but requires better tactical decisions since less options.

It doesn't require as much piloting skill, since you're only going forward and backwards essentially.

Positionally, a turret rocker has to play their movements a bit more precise, but overall they're moving a whole lot less and thus interacting less with actual piloting.

Thus, they shouldn't be on equal terms. They still aren't, but it's fairly close.

The prevelency of tarting is gone, and that's the only legitimate thing that people wanted regarding it. The rest was cry.

Well, there's more to corner peeking than just rocking back and forth, once the fight gets close after the long range phase is over. Some of the most fun I've had is dancing around a corner hitting a Dire Wolf that has no chance of hitting me back. Basically, you can see his shoulder sticking out, but he can't see yours yet, due to manipulation of perspective.

My "footwork" isn't as good as some players, so I can really only pull it off against slower assault mechs, but it certainly doesn't just involve rocking back and forth if the enemy team is actually aggressive.

It also involves some risk, as the only way to pull it off successfully is to stand farther away from the corner. Stand too far back, and you won't have the speed to stay ahead and covered (or worse, you get pushed on and picked off by focus fire because you're standing too far out of cover). Stand too close, and the enemy will see you at the same time and have an equal opportunity to hit you (or worse, they see you first). You really have to orbit the corner at a controlled distance, turning as you move. So... it involves the A/D keys, too.

[Soy]

Yeah, no doubt.

But along the same lines, can say that there's more to poptarting than just jumping up and down in a straight line, too.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Russ doesn't give a **** about the current state of JJs, they aren't going to help sell the latest mech pa.... Oh wait... maybe I should make a Twitter and pester him about fixing JJs so the Gladbag isn't stuck with 8 tons of ****.

[YueFei]

Soy, on 02 March 2015 - 12:25 AM, said:

Yeah, no doubt.

But along the same lines, can say that there's more to poptarting than just jumping up and down in a straight line, too.

Yeah, for sure.

And actually now that I think about it, I have seen JJs used in a similar fashion to hit mechs with lower-positioned cockpits or low-mounted weapon hardpoints while being immune to their return fire. I've seen JJ brawlers and JJ snipers hit mechs like Catapults and Atlas and Dire Wolves (LOL) over the top while the enemy couldn't even see them. As long as you can't see the enemy mech's gun ports, you're perfectly safe.

Hell I've even seen people do it to Jagermechs with their high weapon mounts. They manage to jump so they can see the "dish" on top of the Jagermech, but not the cockpit of the Jagermech, so the Jagermech pilot can't even see the guy shooting at him, LOL.

I guess it's all about the subtleties of execution, devil is in the details, etc. At casual glance it looks like a simple action, but when you look closely at how the best players execute it, the tiny differences in how they do it makes all the difference in the world.

Like, don't laugh at me for being a derp, but I was quite enlightened by one of Villz videos where he fires through the gap of the crashed dropship in Frozen City at an enemy, and then takes a few steps back, like maybe 15 meters back, and pivots around the gap while continuing to hit the enemy mech. And he says something like "since I'm standing back here instead of standing in the gap itself, none of his friends can help him." It should be obvious, and it seems super obvious once he says it, but until I saw that, I had never even considered the concept. I would stick myself through gaps, I would go up to corners and physically hump them, etc.

Today, I still drive my mech with a steering wheel, but at least I learned some things that made me improve.

[Soy]

It is the details and that's where it's impossible to quantify certain things in simple discussions.

It's lonely at the top for a reason.

Another way of phrasing what I mean is... go talk to a top neuro surgeon. Or a top sniper. Or a top chef. Or a top marketer. Or a top actor. Or a top guitar player.

As an average joe, unless the person you're talking is extremely eloquent, they won't be able to exactly state the little subtleties of technique or understanding in a very clear manner for you to just go "ok yeah thats so obvious, duh". It's heady **** for a reason, even in something as trivial like a video game.

Extrapolate this to "elitist vs underhive" arguments for perpetuity on forums. Then throw balance at it, and you meet the deep existential question of "do we balance for derp masses who don't truly understand what the pros are doing, or around a handful of skilled nolifers that can't even clearly explain what the hell they're doing successfully to the underhive".

Don't ask me, I dunno. Nobody really does, that's PGI's territory.

Edited by Soy, 02 March 2015 - 12:56 AM.

[YueFei]

Soy, on 02 March 2015 - 12:50 AM, said:

It is the details and that's where it's impossible to quantify certain things in simple discussions.

It's lonely at the top for a reason.

Another way of phrasing what I mean is... go talk to a top neuro surgeon. Or a top sniper. Or a top chef. Or a top marketer. Or a top actor. Or a top guitar player.

As an average joe, unless the person you're talking is extremely eloquent, they won't be able to exactly state the little subtleties of technique or understanding in a very clear manner for you to just go "ok yeah thats so obvious, duh". It's heady **** for a reason, even in something as trivial like a video game.

Extrapolate this to "elitist vs underhive" arguments for perpetuity on forums. Then throw balance at it, and you meet the deep existential question of "do we balance for derp masses or around a handful of skilled nolifers".

Ideally you could balance for both, but if I had to choose only one, I'd balance for the top players.

Balancing for derps led to stuff like nerfing the AC2 and adding ghost heat to it.

I think all players should strive to improve themselves. Balance for the best players and let everyone else strive and learn and get better. I have my own opinions on balance, but I tend to defer to the opinions of players better than I am.

Other games divide players into leagues or divisions. It's a way to keep most matches competitive and fun for people of different skill levels. I dunno if MWO has enough players to do that. I don't think it does.

Edited by YueFei, 02 March 2015 - 12:59 AM.

[Soy]

It doesn't. Way too fractured at this point.

If any 'single' reason exists to justify no PvE mode, it's prolly that just by itself. Ofc if pop boomed w/ Steam, well, diff story.

[Kmieciu]

I say give CLASS I JUMP JETS a little boost and find out how's HGN and DWF-S performing.

[Rossario x Vampire]

Finaly JJ's are back on track. Thanx PGI finally you guys stoped to listen what forum imbiciles say. Hope C-ERPPC will be next.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Except the ability to climb any hill and jump over obstacles is a HUGE advantage.

What are you going to give mechs without jumpjets to balance that advantage?

You completely failed to address that.

Maybe the thing they were already given?Take a look at the quirks on JJ enabled mechs, the Highlander pays dearly for his hoverjets.

[Khobai]

Quote

Maybe the thing they were already given?Take a look at the quirks on JJ enabled mechs, the Highlander pays dearly for his hoverjets.

The Highlander is an exception and not the rule. The rule is -1 quirk for having jumpjets. With the current state of jumpjets, the Highlander is overpenalized.

-1 quirk is fine for balancing out weaker jumpjets. But if you strengthen jumpjets then you also need to increase the number of quirks jumpjets are worth. Stronger jumpjets would be worth -2 or -3 quirks. The only way to keep stronger jumpjets balanced is if the benefits and drawbacks cancel out.

The main issue I have is that the players pushing for stronger jumpjets expect to get them for free without any additional drawback. Thats not how game balance works. Game balance is give and take. You want stronger jumpjets then you have to give something else up of equal value. Otherwise youre creating imbalance.

its really not a hard concept to grasp yet it seems so completely above the heads of certain players.

Quote

Jump jet equipped mechs should be much much more mobile than non jump jet equipped mechs... It's kinda supposed to be the point to bringing them..

Obviously. I never said jumpjets shouldnt make mechs more mobile. What I said was the benefit of jumpjets should be cancelled out by equal drawbacks. If you buff jumpjets you also need to increase the drawbacks.
If you want stronger jumpjets then you should have to pay for them. Simple as that. Again why do players have such difficulty grasping that concept? Its game balance 101.

Edited by Khobai, 02 March 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 02 March 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

The Highlander is an exception and not the rule. The rule is -1 quirk for having jumpjets. With the current state of jumpjets, the Highlander is overpenalized.

-1 quirk is fine for balancing out weaker jumpjets. But if you strengthen jumpjets then you also need to increase the number of quirks jumpjets are worth. Stronger jumpjets would be worth -2 or -3 quirks. The only way to keep stronger jumpjets balanced is if the benefits and drawbacks cancel out.

The main issue I have is that the players pushing for stronger jumpjets expect to get them for free without any additional drawback. Thats not how game balance works. Game balance is give and take. You want stronger jumpjets then you have to give something else up of equal value. Otherwise youre creating imbalance.

its really not a hard concept to grasp yet it seems so completely above the heads of certain players.



And I never said otherwise. I simply said the benefits of jumpjets need to be cancelled out by drawbacks. If you increase jumpjets you also need to increase the drawbacks. Simple as that.

Currently all the Heavy+ JJ enabled mechs pay FAR TOO MUCH in terms of quirk loss for their JJs (CTF-3D, HGN, VTR are the only IS jump capable chassis over 65t) - they were all placed in tiers higher than they would have been had they not had JJs, and then lost a quirk over the JJs as well, so not only do they have less quirks, they also have weaker ones..

There is a reason why you never see HGNs anymore, and barely see VTRs and CTF-3Ds.

Honestly, i think medium JJs and lower are fine - we just need a lift boost to class 1 JJs (at least double, that would bring it up to 66% of the thrust per ton spent of class 2s, at the moment its 33%!!) and some slightly better quirks given to VTRs and CTF-3Ds

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 02 March 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[HlynkaCG]

Let's be honest though, pop-tarts needed to be nerfed and nerfed hard, it was a very low risk / high reward tactic with no reliable counter, that is why it was so dominant.

As such the question needs to be asked, how do you buff jump jets while keeping the pop-tarts nerfed?

[Tarogato]

Brainstorming: what if jumpjets had a double tap function?

Two options I can think of:

- explosive thrust, similar to the MW:LL jumpjets, at the expense of a heatspike (like, at least 8 heat) and less efficient fuel consumption (so by double-tapping you can't achieve the same max height, maybe only half or two-thirds, but you at least get the initial burst) Perhaps limited so that you can only engage the "afterburner" when your fuel meter is completely full, and it uses all your fuel in one burst so you don't have anything left to 'cushion' with.

- vertical vs horizontal thrust: single-tap+hold is more sensitive to WASD input (i.e., focus more of the thrust on the horizontal component) and double-tap+hold focuses the thrust to the vertical component only, ignoring WASD input.

---

There's probably better options, but those are two off the top of my head. There's definitely room to add a double-tap feature, it's just a question of what to do with it.

[Weeny Machine]

There are reasons why the current "hover jets" should be re-worked into real JUMP jets:

1. In Battletech jump jets are real jump jets which offer a huge advantage in mobility compared to earthbound mechs. Same goes for the TT

2. in MWO: Just consider how much value you get for the tonnage in weapons, heatsinks or armour if you had fitted a mech with 4 JJs. Currently you gain only some marginal advantage when it comes to get up an inconvenient obstacle (e.g. in Canyon Network) or to prevent fall damage (which isn't that nasty usually). Exactly that's why most builds have 1 or 2 JJ and not more.
In most fights jump jets prevent you with a marginal (at best!) advantage.

[Myke Pantera]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Just as the title says.

Many moons ago, Jumpjets were nerfed into Hover Jets...

Mostly agree with the alteration of:

Jabilo, on 01 March 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Light mechs: No adjustment.
Medium mechs: 0.25 seconds
Heavy mehcs: 0.5 seconds
Assault mechs: 0.75 seconds

Or better yet:
Class V: 0 seconds
Class IV: 0.25 seconds
Class III: 0.5 seconds
Class II: 0.75 seconds
Class I: 1 seconds

For lights, fighting while midair is a thing, and none of them have high pin point front loaded damage, so it's a non issue with lights. The heavier the mechs, the more FLPPDmg, so the more screenshake is required. But the screenshake has to affect weapons more. Using lazers while jumping right now, keeps them pretty steady at the moment, no matter if the crosshair jumps around or not.

Edited by Myke Pantera, 02 March 2015 - 08:01 AM.