437 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Artgathan, on 19 March 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

People make engine type choice out to be a big deal. It's really not. Build me a clan mech that is markedly improved by the use of a STD engine. You gain no useful survivability and you give up lots of tonnage. Sounds like a great trade.

It does actually matter... when it comes to loadout and tonnage.

For Clan Mechs, the "range" of engines that are generally acceptable seem to hover around 250 (trudubs) to 350 (or 325 - in whatever the ballpark tonnage/engine rating happens to be). This becomes more complicated with the use or non-use of Endo/Ferro in the build (Nova being the prime suspect in getting screwed up).

I don't necessarily have a problem with the limited tonnage restricting what a mech could do. Leaving a Timberwolf with true engine selection would immediately get them downgraded engines with more firepower or cooling to bear.

In some ways, this is not beneficial for bad mechs that suffer from this (Mist Lynx, Kitfox, Adder). In other ways, it would be extraordinarily beneficial for the holy Clan trinity (Timberwolf, Direwolf, Stormcrow).

So, when people take these things in the proper context, then it makes some sense to limit certain mechs, and yet loosen the restrictions on others.

That's how complicated Clan balance happens to be.

[Johnny Z]

GroxGlitch, on 19 March 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Wai-wai-wait a second here. We just got hit with a rather significant nerf and now you're already talking about buffing IS?
No IS mech with an IS XL should survive loss of a side torso. Full stop. You want to take a side torso loss and keep trucking? Push for LFEs. Letting the IS get the same ST-loss-and-keep-fighting rule as the Clan XLs is not only completely and absurdly unfair to us Clanners when we pay for that with locked engines, but a massive buff that the IS, frankly, does not need.

Anyone with an ounce of reasoning would see that Omni XL small reduction in speed and heat does not equal IS XL blowing. Put your revisionist Over Powered Clan additions to the original board game away.

Do the 10+ advantages Omni have need to be listed again??????????????

Quirks did alot to balance the weapons and equipment but it didnt blance the Omni XL or the top 4 OP Omni mechs or the pathetically easy mode CSSRM's (vrs light mechs anyway).

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 March 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Only if engine crits work. IS XL on ST destruction needs to remain. As things are balanced now, it is not far off what it should be, and this torso destruction speed nerf for clans is ridiculous.

I lol'd here, things being really close to being balanced......the nerf is only ridiculous because it is a blanket nerf that only requires further quirking of the already bad clam mechs (Ice Ferret, Gargoyle, Mist Lynx, Adder and Kit Fox). Essentially the nerf needs to be accompanied by a significant buff of some sort to the bad clam mechs (like unlocking customization a little bit).

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 19 March 2015 - 04:42 PM.

[GroxGlitch]

Johnny Z, on 19 March 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

Anyone with an ounce of reasoning would see that Omni XL small reduction in speed and heat does not equal IS XL blowing. Put your revisionist Over Powered Clan additions to the original board game away.

Do the 10+ advantages Omni have need to be listed again??????????????

Quirks did alot to balance the weapons and equipment but it didnt blance the Omni XL or the top 4 OP Omni mechs or the pathetically easy mode CSSRM's.

Yes, please do list the '10+ advantages" omni's have. I'll be quick to point out all of the counterpoints to them.
Also, what is it with you and cSSRMs? The only thing that really boats them, as far as I've seen, is the Stormcrow, and even then they aren't absurdly overpowered. Except, perhaps against lights, in which case allow me to patronize that whine in the following manner:

"Oh lordy lord, the Clanners have one thing that can stop our incredible 140kph+ lagshield zergrush, what ever shall we do!?"

cSSRMs are fairly heavy, have to contend with lock-on times, and most of the builds have to boat them to be effective, leaving them with limited ammo counts and a total lack of worth once said ammo is depleted.

[Johnny Z]

GroxGlitch, on 19 March 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Yes, please do list the '10+ advantages" omni's have. I'll be quick to point out all of the counterpoints to them.
Also, what is it with you and cSSRMs? The only thing that really boats them, as far as I've seen, is the Stormcrow, and even then they aren't absurdly overpowered. Except, perhaps against lights, in which case allow me to patronize that whine in the following manner:

"Oh lordy lord, the Clanners have one thing that can stop our incredible 140kph+ lagshield zergrush, what ever shall we do!?"

cSSRMs are fairly heavy, have to contend with lock-on times, and most of the builds have to boat them to be effective, leaving them with limited ammo counts and a total lack of worth once said ammo is depleted.

I am glad to see you have abandoned the arguements concerning the Omni XL changes and the idea of IS XL shutdown instead of a 'BOOM".

The next topic someone start about CSSRM's, I'll be there.

[GroxGlitch]

Johnny Z, on 19 March 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

I am glad to see you have abandoned the arguements concerning the Omni XL changes and the idea of IS XL shutdown instead of a 'BOOM".

The next topic someone start about CSSRM's, I'll be there.

I'm glad to see you changed the subject and skittered off when I called your bluff Nice talking to you.
P.S. I was never debating an IS XL shutdown-on-destruction, do keep track of who you're talking to.

[WILL WORK FOR AMMO]

DivideByZer0, on 19 March 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

It is kind of a big deal.
-There are many IS mechs that mount dual (or triple in some cases) ballistic in a ST. This is the single biggest thing that IS has going for it, regarding why std engine. On lighter mechs with ample space it's not as big of a deal, but on bigger mechs, space becomes a limiting factor very often.

Ermm...which ones exactly? I agree that this is a definite advantage where possible and banshee is a big one, sure, but a rough glance at smurfy:

• CDA-3C: 2B in both torsos, but not heavy enough to stack ballistics to the degree you're implying
  
• Grid Iron: 2B in RT, but due to quirks is typically fit with a gauss rifle
  
• TBT-7K: 2B in LT, but I can't remember the last time I've seen a trebuchet
  
• Many shadowhawks, left torsos
  
• Protector: 2B in RT, seen very few Orion's though in general
  
• Banshee: Definitely, STD engine very useful here
  
• Atlas, 2B in RT on some variants, but I've only encountered AC20s in these hardpoints

Might be me, but it doesn't exactly seem like many. With frequency of these chassis I observe alone (that is, not even regarding their loadout or what kind of engine they use), it would appear that either the advantage of the STD engine is not the ability to stack ballistic in a side torso, or that it is not as large an advantage as you make it.

DivideByZer0, on 19 March 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

Also:
-Many clan mechs have exposed ST, many IS has big shield arms. Being able to redirect damage like this, avoiding torso shots, is kind of a big deal.
-(slightly off topic) IS can choose engine size. Clan can't (not that I want them to). Yes clan mechs are fast, but sometimes more firepower is more firepower. Especially with a team that moves together. This is also kind of a big deal.

Wanna know ONE clan mech that would benefit from a standard engine? Dual gauss timberwolf (with JJ, of course). There. Oh, wait, PGI made that not-a-thing already. HMMM... wonder why?

I can't quite figure out how you're managing to put the standard engine onto a timberwolf with jumpjets and dual gauss rifles.

Assuming that you do not want clans to be able to change the engine size (as quoted above), you want to replace the clan XL 375 with a STD 375 so as to put the gauss rifles into the STs (as you said, the advantage IS has with standard engines is the ability to stack ballistics in the torsos). Assuming you're able to remove the additional heatsinks from the engine, this leaves 21.5 tons (with JJs, also quoted above) for the gauss rifles, ammo, and armor (two clan gauss rifles weigh 24 tons alone, so this is not going to happen regardless). How are you building a standard engine, dual gauss rifle Timberwolf if you do not want clans to be able to choose engine sizes?

In addition, the Timberwolf and the current clan 'Mechs in general (there are exceptions) have huge, exposed side torsos. Why would you want to put the gauss rifles in the side torsos in the first place, where they are apt to explode as soon as the armor is gone because of the size of the region?

In the case that you did not want the gauss rifles in the side torsos, then your response to the person you quoted is irrelevant to your own example, or you misunderstood what the person you quoted was trying to say (or both).

Edited by WILL WORK FOR AMMO, 19 March 2015 - 06:05 PM.

[CutterWolf]

I'm still waiting on the list of 10 things??

JohnnyZ, I'm guessing your don't play Clan mechs a lot which is fine but if you did you would know something everyone else who runs them all the time does and it this fact: Clan mechs at most can carry just "2" extra (one per leg) heat sinks in their legs if any at all on some mechs and "2"extra at most in the CT other than the ones that come with the engine. So where do you think all those other heat sinks are at?? Hmmmmm let's see.....ah......IN ITS ARMS AND SIDE TORSOS!!!

So what happens when a Clan mech loses a side torso?? It loses half or more of its heat sinks! So your Clan mech now goes from running hot to running SUPERNOVA! And now PGI wants to cut its speed and maybe add more heat on top of that?? Really?? Does that sound fair to you??

[DivideByZer0]

WILL WORK FOR AMMO, on 19 March 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

*snip*

First of all, the situation was hypothetical. It was a response to a poster who was saying that there is no advantage to running std engines. I even admitted that there isn't a huge advantage to being able to survive a dual ST loss. It's there.
So,anyways, in this situation one would just run a smaller engine, breh. Like the IS does. You may have overlooked that. I figured it would be implied, since we're talking about being able to switch clam engines.

In general you seem to be picking and choosing parts of what I said. I know what you're saying. You're trying to minimize the argument, but the overall point is there: you can load up your ST's more and use arms for shields more effectively with std engines. Mount a gauss or AC20 in the side of a clammer and you barely have room for ammo. Meaning you have to put ammo in other places, which reduces redundancy.
I shouldn't have to explain this: There is a place in BT for standard engines.

edit:sorry for the edits, i've been dropping pub matches

Edited by DivideByZer0, 19 March 2015 - 06:11 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

CutterWolf, on 19 March 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

I'm still waiting on the list of 10 things??

JohnnyZ, I'm guessing your don't play Clan mechs a lot which is fine but if you did you would know something everyone else who runs them all the time does and it this fact: Clan mechs at most can carry just "2" extra (one per leg) heat sinks in their legs if any at all on some mechs and "2"extra at most in the CT other than the ones that come with the engine. So where do you think all those other heat sinks are at?? Hmmmmm let's see.....ah......IN ITS ARMS AND SIDE TORSOS!!!

So what happens when a Clan mech loses a side torso?? It loses half or more of its heat sinks! So your Clan mech now goes from running hot to running SUPERNOVA! And now PGI wants to cut its speed and maybe add more heat on top of that?? Really?? Does that sound fair to you??

right now its 20% DHS loss, but its not really 20%
its 20% + what you had in that half of your mech, so 20+50%,
ok on ST destruction we are getting -50% weapons -70% heat Efficancy,
and now they want to take away 20% of our speed as well?

personally i would rather -20% acceleration/deceleration,
but lets think on this, My Nova(81Kph) loses a ST it now goes 68Kph,
so my Half-Dead Nova was Just Promoted to Full dead as i now cant run away,
other Clan Lights take it worse than My Nova, so you can imagine the problems,

[Burktross]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 March 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

right now its 20% DHS loss, but its not really 20%
its 20% + what you had in that half of your mech, so 20+50%,
ok on ST destruction we are getting -50% weapons -70% heat Efficancy,
and now they want to take away 20% of our speed as well?

personally i would rather -20% acceleration/deceleration,
but lets think on this, My Nova(81Kph) loses a ST it now goes 68Kph,
so my Half-Dead Nova was Just Promoted to Full dead as i now cant run away,
other Clan Lights take it worse than My Nova, so you can imagine the problems,

I agree--- the huge speed nerf is overdoing it.
What if, maybe, it disables speed tweak, if your mech has it, and delays accel/deccel, like you said?

Edited by Burktross, 19 March 2015 - 06:09 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Burktross, on 19 March 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Easy, yes. Vital? No.
I own all of those mechs-- zombying has never been a substantial benefit for anything more than a moment.
Then you just get annihilated when people see your armor readout.

Also-- if you're not using an XL in a Hopper, you must be doing it wrong!

Welp, your lost and your tastes.

Some people preffer to keep fighting before they are taken out and get a few more kills and continue being an effort to the team.

[Burktross]

Nightshade24, on 19 March 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

Welp, your lost and your tastes.

Some people preffer to keep fighting before they are taken out and get a few more kills and continue being an effort to the team.

When you get zombied, you either hardly contribute with what you have left, get your core ripped apart as soon as your other components go, or get targeted even faster for being easy prey.

Make no mistake, I'm not Mr. puts an XL on atlas, but what kills are you going to get with a likely very damaged core and a medlas or two-- larglas if you're on a Hopper.

(Fun fact-- I've been running XL hoppers since their debut-- Not one side torso death! I assure you, my taste in mech configs is more than satisfactory! )

[Artgathan]

Deathlike, on 19 March 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

It does actually matter... when it comes to loadout and tonnage.

Even then, not really. If/when we see LFE for IS mech we'll see the vast majority of builds that are currently using standard engines switch over to LFEs (excepting those that lack the critical space for it). The vast majority of all battlemechs are useless when they're sticked (meaning they've lost both side torsos), so who really cares if you go down once all of your firepower is gone? Yeah, you'll lose a tiny amount of survivability. The real question is whether or not that extra bit of survivability is useful. In 95% of cases, the answer is no. Even if you stay in the fight with the one/two weapons remaining on your mech (by zombie-ing with a STD Engine), you may have avoided the situation entirely by bringing an extra 3/4 weapons at the beginning of the fight with the LFE (and thus being able to kill your opponent before taking all that damage).

Survivability is overrated. If I can free up enough tonnage to kill you before you can dent my armor, I have made myself infinitely survivable.

[Nightshade24]

Cebi, on 19 March 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

Wang.

And the firepower on a zombie mech is pitiful. Would much rather have a half tonnage engine that is superior to the IS XL in every way...

Remember, IS XL side torso loss equals DEATH. Clans get a tiny little debuff.

Last time I checked most people who put XL's on wangs are flamed by their own team and laughed at by the enemy.

Also depending on the weapons, but 2 Medium lasers CT is 10 damage, which is still a kicker, it is 2 alphas to a rear of a mech to core most of them, and a few more hits to kill it.

If that said weapon is an er large laser or a large pulse you still have quite a punch as well as range to work with, (hence why the stalker is quite successful with it)

A tag in the head/ ct is also usefull and can continue providing your team with useful support in this critical state.


Earlier I got hit in my hunchback 4P earlier. pretty bad. I only had 1 head medium laser remaining.

Due to the critical state I was in I got away from my attacker and stumbled upon a lone enemy mech, which I continuously pelt with the medium laser till he ran, which I eventually killed him and leading to me to get some LRM boats in the back field as the front lines of enemies are being crushed. This left me with a few more minutes of serious damage and distracting the LRM boats. (Didn't really kill them, they ran off and my team got them).

Due to the early damage I suffered and never being in range to be with, I did approx 300 damage with the single medium laser.

I consider that quite useful.


Also note:

When a clan losses a ST, it loses 20% heat eff and speed. and is shut down for 10 seconds after ST destruction in the heat of battle.

When a standard engine losses a ST, nothing happens. When the other side torso. Nothing still happens. besides 2 torsos being gone.

You also forget the fact most IS mechs have quriks between 20% to 50% for weapons.

Clans only got most quirks around 1% to 4%.

So you can safely say "pffft! my inner sphere mechs would be easy mode in a clan engine" while most clan mechs suffer with it.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

LOL @ if clan mechs had those problems...

Aside from the TW/SCR/DW and HBR, name some Clan mechs that actually have decent torso hardpoints, if they have any at all... if anyone would be bawling over the fact that the weapons are loaded into an arm only, clans would not be among those. Everything we have is mounted in arms...

Laser vomit is outranged by the 4N stalker...you do realize this right? The stalker also runs cooler, has shorter burn time, and can even get 2 groups of 3 off without ghost heat in roughly the same time a laser vomit alpha takes to burn. Think about that...

Also, back to your flawed..."nerfing engines across the board fixes weapons" argument.

Please...

Engines have nothing to do with weapons...stop trying to tie it together.

Have you run a 4N stalker? It's as maneuverable as the Dire Wolf and only slightly faster at 15 tons less.

I've said, repeatedly, that weapons are balanced apart from engines.

You get the perks of an XL engine - either 20% faster speed than a STD *or* 50% less tonnage but with all the perks of an STD engine. That's broken. This helps bring that back into line.

With omnipods you only need the TW, Scrow, HBR. Wait until the Arctic Cheetah comes out.

[MischiefSC]

CutterWolf, on 19 March 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

I'm still waiting on the list of 10 things??

JohnnyZ, I'm guessing your don't play Clan mechs a lot which is fine but if you did you would know something everyone else who runs them all the time does and it this fact: Clan mechs at most can carry just "2" extra (one per leg) heat sinks in their legs if any at all on some mechs and "2"extra at most in the CT other than the ones that come with the engine. So where do you think all those other heat sinks are at?? Hmmmmm let's see.....ah......IN ITS ARMS AND SIDE TORSOS!!!

So what happens when a Clan mech loses a side torso?? It loses half or more of its heat sinks! So your Clan mech now goes from running hot to running SUPERNOVA! And now PGI wants to cut its speed and maybe add more heat on top of that?? Really?? Does that sound fair to you??

Well, you could die when your ST is lost. Instantly.

Or you could start the match 20% slower (with a STD engine) and less overall tonnage for weapons from the beginning. Your TW would have a STD 305 to have the same tonnage for weapons and go 73 kph instead of almost 90. Oh, it would also have 3 less spots for internal DHS, so that's 4 less engine slots but 6 MORE DHS slots you'd need just to have the 'baseline' heat the TW currently has.

So 2 less crit spaces - that knocks out your laservomit and SRM builds currently available.

Also, again, you start the match, right out of the gate, 20% slower and less available room for DHS....

So the penalty for losing a ST is.... performing like you have a STD engine and have lost a side torso, just like any IS mech that loses a side torso. All the DHS on that side (which, if you're an energy build you've got because IS DHS are 33% bigger) plus weapons, etc.

So you get all the perks of an XL engine with more DHS in the engine, right until your ST is lost. Then you function like you have a STD engine.

Oh the humanity? What a terrible penalty?

Tell you what. Start with those nerfs out of the gate OR die instantly when your ST is lost. How about that.

[Kristov Kerensky]

That 10 second stunlock, that is NOT what Russ said, that was someone else, not anyone at PGI, but another player who was commenting ON the subject.

10/20% speed loss + the current heat deficit is what Russ said was possible, because the current 20% heat deficit is NOT working, it's been in for a bit already and most people driving Clan Mechs don't realize it at all. I've know it was in, I was expecting my Nova to be absolute hell when I lost a side torso. I dropped, naturally lost a side torso and...nothing, didn't even notice the lack of cooling, HALF MY GUNS ARE GONE, so losing 20% of my cooling wasn't an issue at all. Kept the exact same firing rhythm on my remaining weapons and was fine as if the Mech was fully operational, just doing half the damage. My Hellbringer, it can be a problem IF they blow off my RT, but who the hell does that, ECM is in the LT along with the big guns, that's what everyone goes for usually. The heat has been here folks, no one realized it because it has so little effect on game play. Speed drop is the next step to try and balance out the effect Clan XLs have.

This isn't about the power of the WEAPONS, it's about the power of the Clan XL and the advantages it gives currently, nothing else. PGI has already shown the heat deficit doesn't work, that was the first attempt, now it's time for step 2.

[Johnny Z]

Ignore these trolls.

One is argueing that Omni XL heat sink loss and speed decrease on side torso loss is = to IS XL going boom on side torso loss.

The other is argueing that a IS Standard engine with both torso removed is = to a Omni mech with one torso removed.

They are not serious just trolling.

[Burktross]

Sigh.
Look at yourselves, people. C'mon!