437 replies to this topic

[GroxGlitch]

Kristov Kerensky, on 19 March 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

That 10 second stunlock, that is NOT what Russ said, that was someone else, not anyone at PGI, but another player who was commenting ON the subject.

10/20% speed loss + the current heat deficit is what Russ said was possible, because the current 20% heat deficit is NOT working, it's been in for a bit already and most people driving Clan Mechs don't realize it at all. I've know it was in, I was expecting my Nova to be absolute hell when I lost a side torso. I dropped, naturally lost a side torso and...nothing, didn't even notice the lack of cooling, HALF MY GUNS ARE GONE, so losing 20% of my cooling wasn't an issue at all. Kept the exact same firing rhythm on my remaining weapons and was fine as if the Mech was fully operational, just doing half the damage. My Hellbringer, it can be a problem IF they blow off my RT, but who the hell does that, ECM is in the LT along with the big guns, that's what everyone goes for usually. The heat has been here folks, no one realized it because it has so little effect on game play. Speed drop is the next step to try and balance out the effect Clan XLs have.

This isn't about the power of the WEAPONS, it's about the power of the Clan XL and the advantages it gives currently, nothing else. PGI has already shown the heat deficit doesn't work, that was the first attempt, now it's time for step 2.

To throw in my $0.02, if you boil it down, they're trying to make not dead = dead, in a sense.
The intrinsic problem here, of course, is that not dead cannot, and will not, ever equal dead. This leaves one of two possibilities; either one nerfs the Clan XL so much that losing a side torso is effectively death, which some would argue it is now, or one accepts that Clan XL engines are never going to be directly balanced to IS XL engines no matter what is done. Perhaps there is a grey zone here, but I don't really see it; long term it has to go one of two ways.

Plus, as mentioned before, the actual heat efficiency loss is actually closer to 70%, which ends up being pretty rough depending on loadout. I would swing for an accel/decel nerf rather than a straight speed nerf.

Thoughts?

Edited by GroxGlitch, 19 March 2015 - 07:20 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Burktross, on 19 March 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

When you get zombied, you either hardly contribute with what you have left, get your core ripped apart as soon as your other components go, or get targeted even faster for being easy prey.

Make no mistake, I'm not Mr. puts an XL on atlas, but what kills are you going to get with a likely very damaged core and a medlas or two-- larglas if you're on a Hopper.

(Fun fact-- I've been running XL hoppers since their debut-- Not one side torso death! I assure you, my taste in mech configs is more than satisfactory! )

Well what you said also means "take X, Z, and Y mech..." is completely useless as their firepower is equal or worse to that of a larger mech zombeying...

Eg spider, Locust, mist lynx, etc

[Gattsus]

FupDup, on 16 March 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

I'd rather crank up the heat penalty to something like 50% and have the speed penalty down to just 10% (essentially removes Speed Tweak from your mech).

Also, the Speed Retention module should cancel out this penalty.

I agree with the speed retention module. Though, though with the speed nerf, which seems fair since you're losing 1/3(?) of the engine.

[Johnny Z]

The speed retention module effecting this is a great idea. Barely used module gets an improvment.

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 March 2015 - 07:30 PM.

[ThrashInc]

Or just no penalty, lol.

I wouldn't balance the clans against **** IS players running LRM boats in CW.

Either make the clan XL blow up on ST loss, and unlock Endo/Ferro/Engines, or do nothing and figure out other options if when compared against players of equal skill and non-garbage builds/mechs there is still a discrepancy. I don't think there is.

Clan mechs are really easy to ST if you know how to aim, all of them. (Protip: that's how you kill clan mechs hella easy) Being ST'd in a clan mech basically means you've lost half your firepower and more than half your cooling. For some mechs, it's even worse. The Warhawk loses all of its guns or all of its cooling. Being slower just means you die faster.

[KraftySOT]

Burktross, on 19 March 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Sigh.
Look at yourselves, people. C'mon!

So much this.

[Kristov Kerensky]

GroxGlitch, on 19 March 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

To throw in my $0.02, if you boil it down, they're trying to make not dead = dead, in a sense.
The intrinsic problem here, of course, is that not dead cannot, and will not, ever equal dead. This leaves one of two possibilities; either one nerfs the Clan XL so much that losing a side torso is effectively death, which some would argue it is now, or one accepts that Clan XL engines are never going to be directly balanced to IS XL engines no matter what is done. Perhaps there is a grey zone here, but I don't really see it; long term it has to go one of two ways.

Plus, as mentioned before, the actual heat efficiency loss is actually closer to 70%, which ends up being pretty rough depending on loadout. I would swing for an accel/decel nerf rather than a straight speed nerf.

Thoughts?

That cooling loss is only 20%, that's what it is now and has been for a bit now with Clan XLs, it's really not noticeble most of the time, the exception, for ME at least, being when my Hellbringer lost it's RIGHT torso instead of it's Left, suddenly those 3 LPL I run got a little warmer than usual faster, but that was literally a 1 time deal so far. I really expected it to be hell in my Nova, I mean they run hot with JUST Mguns, I swear to god, so naturally any loss in cooling is going to be really noticeble really fast right? Nope, nothing, half my guns means half my heat production, literally didn't change my firing rhythm and had no issues with heat. Seriously, this heat hit has already been in the game for a bit now, it's not new, it's not BEING added, it WAS added, and no one noticed because it's so overwhelming not having any real effect.

Tossing out that you ALSO lose X number of DHS which means the cooling loss is bumped up 50% MORE...how the hell do they get that? That's not what's happening, otherwise my Nova WOULD overheat the first time I fired my remaining weapons as a group, which is about the ONLY way I fire them, loss of 70% of cooling, with an already hot Mech? THAT would be REAL obvious REAL quick, these forums would have exploded within an hour of the change. Please note the total lack of complaints however....yeah...it's not 70% or whatever other number people want to toss out there, if you lose a LOT of DHS, yeah, it's probably a bigger hit total, but 70%? That means you have to lose around, lets take the Dire Wolf, 15 DHS total, 12 of which are Engine, so 3 extra right? 1 per torso side, 1 in a leg. Loss of a torso side means 1 DHS gone and..uh..I'm not getting a 70% loss in cooling with the loss of 1/15th of the sinks + 20%, are you? Hmm, ok, so that 70% obviously isn't the Whale, so...hmm. MY Nova actually loses 3 DHS with a ST loss, out of 16..yeah, not hitting 70% there either and that's the worst loss in MY Daishi pack +Hellbringer+Mad Dog, so, I really am at a loss where that 70% comes from. Can you explain it? Maybe I'm missing some Clan Mech that has over 10 sinks to be lost with that ST/Arm? That's what we're talking about to go from 20% to 70% usually, I don't have all of the Clan Mechs so maybe one of the ones I don't have carry that? Hmm, IF you strip one entire side of the Mech of everything else, INCLUDING hand and lower arm actuators, you CAN fit 10 DHS in there! But..uh..you just removed half your possible weapons anyway, so...uh...sorry, I am literally NOT seeing this, can someone point it out to me?

[MischiefSC]

ThrashInc, on 19 March 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Or just no penalty, lol.

I wouldn't balance the clans against **** IS players running LRM boats in CW.

Either make the clan XL blow up on ST loss, and unlock Endo/Ferro/Engines, or do nothing and figure out other options if when compared against players of equal skill and non-garbage builds/mechs there is still a discrepancy. I don't think there is.

Clan mechs are really easy to ST if you know how to aim, all of them. (Protip: that's how you kill clan mechs hella easy) Being ST'd in a clan mech basically means you've lost half your firepower and more than half your cooling. For some mechs, it's even worse. The Warhawk loses all of its guns or all of its cooling. Being slower just means you die faster.

I'm all for that - so long as the Clans also have same crit spaces for Endo/FF, XL, weapons and equipment. Then you can unlock them to modify all you want. You can make a TW with unlocked spaces, sure. Just you'd need a 305 STD engine and only go 72 to get same weapon tonnage while your MPLs weigh 2 tons each and your LPLs 7 tons, etc.

Sure. I'm game for that.

Oh, and Omnipods locked to chassis.

Then we can just balance the weapons, Clan weapons with higher heat but higher damage and longer burn but no more 1/2 tonnage 1/2 crit missiles, etc.

Clan weapons and equipment are smaller/lighter to offset the locked internals and locked available weapon tonnage.

The Clan XL is a different animal and had no balance vs IS XLs. A 90kph 75 ton mech with a 60-70pt viable alpha at 400m with JJs that fights like it has a STD engine is just stupid. That's just one example.

Are there bad Clan mechs? Sure. Bad IS mechs. Again, due to Omnipods you only need 3 or 4 chassis because you can many any of them do just about anything you want. The IS may have more total mechs but most are largely worthless and in all of them you've got a ton of worthless variants. Clan mechs can at least strip the pods off them to improve the one they keep.

All the perks of an XL out of the gate, you lose a ST and you work essentially like you had a STD engine the whole time. That's not a bad penalty. it's pretty mild. Everyone is just used to Clan mechs being inherently superior. Only a few people have had the guts to admit that.

Edited by MischiefSC, 19 March 2015 - 08:02 PM.

[ThrashInc]

Right so, no more MechWarrior, just Robots.

Forgot.

25-50% cooldown, heat generation quirks on clan mechs. 2.0dubs. single shot ballistics.

I'd say Dire Wolf - B with 4xIS AC5 with 40% cooldown reduction, 20% range, 12.5% energy heat generation.

It'll be like Dragon 1N and super balanced.

Edited by ThrashInc, 19 March 2015 - 07:57 PM.

[GroxGlitch]

Kristov Kerensky, on 19 March 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

That cooling loss is only 20%, that's what it is now and has been for a bit now with Clan XLs, it's really not noticeble most of the time, the exception, for ME at least, being when my Hellbringer lost it's RIGHT torso instead of it's Left, suddenly those 3 LPL I run got a little warmer than usual faster, but that was literally a 1 time deal so far. I really expected it to be hell in my Nova, I mean they run hot with JUST Mguns, I swear to god, so naturally any loss in cooling is going to be really noticeble really fast right? Nope, nothing, half my guns means half my heat production, literally didn't change my firing rhythm and had no issues with heat. Seriously, this heat hit has already been in the game for a bit now, it's not new, it's not BEING added, it WAS added, and no one noticed because it's so overwhelming not having any real effect.

Tossing out that you ALSO lose X number of DHS which means the cooling loss is bumped up 50% MORE...how the hell do they get that? That's not what's happening, otherwise my Nova WOULD overheat the first time I fired my remaining weapons as a group, which is about the ONLY way I fire them, loss of 70% of cooling, with an already hot Mech? THAT would be REAL obvious REAL quick, these forums would have exploded within an hour of the change. Please note the total lack of complaints however....yeah...it's not 70% or whatever other number people want to toss out there, if you lose a LOT of DHS, yeah, it's probably a bigger hit total, but 70%? That means you have to lose around, lets take the Dire Wolf, 15 DHS total, 12 of which are Engine, so 3 extra right? 1 per torso side, 1 in a leg. Loss of a torso side means 1 DHS gone and..uh..I'm not getting a 70% loss in cooling with the loss of 1/15th of the sinks + 20%, are you? Hmm, ok, so that 70% obviously isn't the Whale, so...hmm. MY Nova actually loses 3 DHS with a ST loss, out of 16..yeah, not hitting 70% there either and that's the worst loss in MY Daishi pack +Hellbringer+Mad Dog, so, I really am at a loss where that 70% comes from. Can you explain it? Maybe I'm missing some Clan Mech that has over 10 sinks to be lost with that ST/Arm? That's what we're talking about to go from 20% to 70% usually, I don't have all of the Clan Mechs so maybe one of the ones I don't have carry that? Hmm, IF you strip one entire side of the Mech of everything else, INCLUDING hand and lower arm actuators, you CAN fit 10 DHS in there! But..uh..you just removed half your possible weapons anyway, so...uh...sorry, I am literally NOT seeing this, can someone point it out to me?

Could be more or less, depending on Chassis. I was quoting a figure cited previously, though validity of said figure is debatable as always. Let me mess around with my TBRs and see what the actual loss figures are and I'll edit this when I have a result.

EDIT: Ok, conclusion that I have derived, mathematically, is as follows:
The mech used in this case is my TBR-Prime with an S right torso, armed with 2 cERLPL and 4 ERSPL.
It has 5 engine 'TrueDub' DHSs, for a heat capacity of 10, and 9 external DHSs, for a total of 14.4 heat cap.
This lends a sum of 24.4 heat capacity.
Assuming we lose the LT, which has one more heatsink and therefore 5 of the 9, we see a heat loss of:
1 Engine TrueDub + 5 External FakeDubs = 10 heat cap, or 44.983%.
The other side torso would end up being a loss of 34.426%
So, it's more than the 20% stated, but nothing in the realm of 70%; 45% (rounded) at worst case.
Worth noting: TBRs cannot carry heat sinks in the legs.

TL:DR We were both right, but you far moreso than me. It's more than 20%, about 45%.

Edited by GroxGlitch, 19 March 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[Johnny Z]

ThrashInc, on 19 March 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

Right so, no more MechWarrior, just Robots.

Forgot.

25-50% cooldown, heat generation quirks on clan mechs. 2.0dubs. single shot ballistics.

I'd say Dire Wolf - B with 4xIS AC5 with 40% cooldown reduction, 20% range, 12.5% energy heat generation.

It'll be like Dragon 1N and super balanced.

You really think the Direwolf would be as good with IS tech?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Ok Grox, that's one I don't have, just can't deal with the model...it's beautiful, but..it's not a TIMBERWOLF! That was one of the very first Mechs I personally made in 3d Max Studio years ago, I know it's geometry inside out, just can't accept anything but the original

Have you got a Mist Lynx, looking at Smurfy's, that might be the culprit that hits 70%, 3 external required sinks, 2 on one side, 1 on the other, so losing the 2 side, that drops you to 80% cooling, and the 20% should drop you to 60% cooling(it's actually not 80/60, 1.4s, not 2.0s but being generous here), which isn't a 70% hit either, so...

[GroxGlitch]

Kristov Kerensky, on 19 March 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

Ok Grox, that's one I don't have, just can't deal with the model...it's beautiful, but..it's not a TIMBERWOLF! That was one of the very first Mechs I personally made in 3d Max Studio years ago, I know it's geometry inside out, just can't accept anything but the original

Have you got a Mist Lynx, looking at Smurfy's, that might be the culprit that hits 70%, 3 external required sinks, 2 on one side, 1 on the other, so losing the 2 side, that drops you to 80% cooling, and the 20% should drop you to 60% cooling(it's actually not 80/60, 1.4s, not 2.0s but being generous here), which isn't a 70% hit either, so...

I, unfortunately, do not own a Mist Lynx, though it wouldn't surprise me if that's the culprit.
By the way, I did edit my math in up above, so get a look at that. I'd wager you'll like my findings.

EDIT: Interestingly, it was also the first Mech I modeled when I was first diving into Blender, back with... 2.47? Man, I learned so much from that. I, however, kinda found the old TBR design kinda... lanky, for my taste. I largely like the new 'modernized' look, though some things do bug me; for instance, the arms don't clear the legs and the knee clips through the elbow if you twist left or right. But, that is largely a nitpick.

Edited by GroxGlitch, 19 March 2015 - 08:11 PM.

[MischiefSC]

ThrashInc, on 19 March 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

Right so, no more MechWarrior, just Robots.

Forgot.

25-50% cooldown, heat generation quirks on clan mechs. 2.0dubs. single shot ballistics.

I'd say Dire Wolf - B with 4xIS AC5 with 40% cooldown reduction, 20% range, 12.5% energy heat generation.

It'll be like Dragon 1N and super balanced.

Yeah, that's not disingenuous at all.

Clans have a totally different method of balance right now. What isn't balanced is engines.

All this is doing is saying:

You get to start with all the benefits of an XL engine. Less weight which means more tonnage and/or more speed and maneuverability.

When you lose a ST, you function essentially like you had a STD engine the whole time until your ST is lost.

What a terrible penalty! Would that the IS was so brutally punished.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Your numbers are pretty much with mine, one exception, the loss of the ST doesn't actually remove any of the engine mounted sinks, so you only lose the 1.4s, it's not really enough to make much difference though, we'll be at ~40% on the worst case Mist Lynx, around 30ish% for the rest. Like I said, it's already been in the game for a bit now, no one's noticed it enough to create a storm on the forums, the loss is really that minimal and it's why Russ is considering the speed drop.

It's a balance to the Clan XL's advantage to the IS XL, that's all, and it's actually something I think may foreshadow actual engine crits being added, as we were told in closed beta would happen, and that's an across the board PITA for us to all enjoy. Personally can't wait for that, FINALLY a real reason to carry MGuns and LBX!

[GroxGlitch]

Kristov Kerensky, on 19 March 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

Your numbers are pretty much with mine, one exception, the loss of the ST doesn't actually remove any of the engine mounted sinks, so you only lose the 1.4s, it's not really enough to make much difference though, we'll be at ~40% on the worst case Mist Lynx, around 30ish% for the rest. Like I said, it's already been in the game for a bit now, no one's noticed it enough to create a storm on the forums, the loss is really that minimal and it's why Russ is considering the speed drop.

It's a balance to the Clan XL's advantage to the IS XL, that's all, and it's actually something I think may foreshadow actual engine crits being added, as we were told in closed beta would happen, and that's an across the board PITA for us to all enjoy. Personally can't wait for that, FINALLY a real reason to carry MGuns and LBX!

Good point, I had just assumed it was 20% of the engine heat sinks and not just a flat 20% loss. So it ends up being roughly 40% or so on the TBR.

I dunno, the speed loss still seems a bit much. The loss of speed does do a great deal to knock out the combat effectiveness of a mech. Not so bad on a TBR or SCR but I do worry about other chassis that aren't incredibly fast to begin with. Stuff like the NVA or my KFX didn't need this. It'd be really hard to sell me on this being a good balance stroke, again I'd fall back on accel/decel rather than straight speed. Hell that could be even worse than speed, arguably, because it hurts your ability to poke out around corners and stuff as fast and exposes you to fire more. I do agree actual engine crits would be good to have either way, though.

I still swing heavily for the LFE idea Gyrok proposed. More variety is always a good though, though I'll refrain from saying more as I don't want to derail from the topic.

Edited by GroxGlitch, 19 March 2015 - 08:35 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

The speed loss will be higher on the faster Mechs, but that's just it, it's a flat percentage hit based on max speed, Whales will barely notice, my Artic Cheetah when it shows WILL notice it more, that's almost 30kph drop once I have Speed Tweak, dropping it from 142 down to 113 or so. KitFox will drop to 84kph, and so on. Noticeble but not actually death sentence slow as portrayed, much like the hysteria about the heat loss being 70%, mountains/molehills springing to mind here. Comes out to really be a 10% drop from pre-Speed Tweak, and without a stunlock like losing a leg has, it shouldn't be THAT deadly for the average player, much less a real issue for good players. I can manage to stumble around on 1 leg in my Kit or Nova currently, I think just moving a bit slower will not be that big of a deal for these 'top comp players' who are crying wolf so loudly here..no pun intended.

[GroxGlitch]

Kristov Kerensky, on 19 March 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

The speed loss will be higher on the faster Mechs, but that's just it, it's a flat percentage hit based on max speed, Whales will barely notice, my Artic Cheetah when it shows WILL notice it more, that's almost 30kph drop once I have Speed Tweak, dropping it from 142 down to 113 or so. KitFox will drop to 84kph, and so on. Noticeble but not actually death sentence slow as portrayed, much like the hysteria about the heat loss being 70%, mountains/molehills springing to mind here. Comes out to really be a 10% drop from pre-Speed Tweak, and without a stunlock like losing a leg has, it shouldn't be THAT deadly for the average player, much less a real issue for good players. I can manage to stumble around on 1 leg in my Kit or Nova currently, I think just moving a bit slower will not be that big of a deal for these 'top comp players' who are crying wolf so loudly here..no pun intended.

I guess only time will tell. Everybody can sit here and yell and scream about what'll be happening but as I understand it this change hasn't even been made yet. With no playtesting, all we have is theory.

[Kristov Kerensky]

GroxGlitch, on 19 March 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

I guess only time will tell. Everybody can sit here and yell and scream about what'll be happening but as I understand it this change hasn't even been made yet. With no playtesting, all we have is theory.

Yes, and it's not a given it will happen, just something Russ said he was considering since the heat loss didn't work as intended. I'm good with it, it's a logical change, unlike SO many of the 'balance' fixes put in and it's in line with the TT and lore lines.

IF it gets put in, I'm thinking we need to push, really push, for OmniPods to BE OmniPods, or at least make it so all OmniMechs have OmniPods that will allow you to put ALL weapon types on an OmniMech somehow. They ARE OmniMechs and they ARE supposed to be able to load ANY type of weapon config they have the tonnage/space for, so by Kerensky, GIVE THEM THEIR TEETH!

[Nightshade24]

Burktross, on 19 March 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Sigh.
Look at yourselves, people. C'mon!

Please tell me you made that yourself... please... I need someone to praise for this.