625 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Mike Forst, on 18 March 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

Previously the only quirks that were available were for an individual weapon and entire weapon types (ie. LRM15 and Missile). This pass introduces weapon families: LRM Family affects all LRM launchers but not SRMs and SSRMs.

Before if we wanted to provide a quirk for just LRMs we would have to add individual LRM5, LRM10, LRM15, and LRM20 quirks and it would have been a long list. Now we can apply a quirk to all LRMs at once without affecting the other missile types.

Are there families for things like certain classes of lasers (i.e. Small Class Lasers refers to SL/ERSL/SPL) or autocannon calibers (i.e. Class 5 Autocannon refers to AC/5 UAC/5 and LB 5-X)?

[Deathlike]

I'll have some Gargoyle ideas for quirks tomorrow... right now I'm a bit miffed at what I saw on the list and probably require a full thread for that...

[Anakha]

Mike any chance of endo being unlocked for the summoner and other clans that don't get it? Or unlocking JJ's now that they have been nerfed so badly? Also i understand from reading your posts that you wanted to try more defensive or movement type quirks with the first pass. Yet a mech like the Summoner did not receive hardly any increased armor or structure to all its arm omnipods where the majority of its firepower comes from. Also with 5 tons of fixed JJ's it jumps a lot and the legs get hit a lot yet no increased armor or structure to legs why was this? In addition the CT on all the summoners had 25% acc/decc and 5% speed and now that is reduced on many of them any chance of making this at least standard?

Also usable ballistic quirks in the RT where most builds put their ballistic weapons would be a godsend because we need the arms for lasers. MG range was pretty laughable nobody uses those on a summoner.

Finally the LT single missile launcher should have the majority of the missile quirks that is the iconic signature feature of the mech and i still don't see why it doesn't have 2 slots there for missiles, you can put in an lrm 20 but not 2 srm6 makes no sense to me. All the IS mechs got extra inflated hard points but the clan mechs that needed them did not. If its going to only get one i needs major cooldown quirks to be useful.

Thanks for your responses to us the feedback on the actual forums is very much appreciated!

[Summon3r]

Mike Forst, on 18 March 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

Hi everyone!

I am one of the people who helped implement this latest batch of quirks. I have reviewed this thread and taken some feedback notes. I do read and value your feedback. More quirks are on the way for the next patch along with some changes to the quirks that were put in place on the 17th.

We are reviewing the performance of these quirks and will be making adjustments in the future based on the results. I know that some of the weapon quirks seem too small on the clan Mechs and understand your concern. Part of the focus this time around was in trying to make Mechs more durable and agile on the battlefield and that focus will continue for the near future. There is still lots more work to be done and it is already underway.

As much as I'd like to, I cannot possibly reply to everyone in this thread. I will keep reading and taking notes though.

so your answer to making the Summoner more durable and "AGILE" was actually reducing its accel deccel quirks it previously had, except on the PRIME which requires PRIME side torsos to get its previous level of agility quirks, the rest were NERFED! then to add insult to injury to the Summoner you remove its 10% balistic and energy cooldown bonus it previously had on the LA and RA and reduce it to 5% and add some utterly useless quirks in the place of the previous 5%.......

and im not even going to start on the let down the GAR was apart from the D where the accel deccel quirks are at best OK.

[Nooee]

Felio, on 18 March 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

The Heavy Metal has been buffed a little every quirk patch, including this one.

You know +10% cooldown means 10% shorter cooldown, right? I know it's weird; PGI just prefers to write it that way. So it's actually better at missiles than pre-quirk.

Lastly... you use your HM as a missile platform?

They nerfed everything in it and the arms are shot off so fast by the ppc spam it is pathetic. It has 2 missile hard points that are useless. There is no longer a viable load out for that mech.

[Navid A1]

Really appreciate the responses Mike.

However i'd like to know about the mindset behind the following:


- First, the adder. As you know, clan lights suffer from not having 10 true DHSs. Their engines are small and locked and only engine dhs gives you 0.2 dissipation. So that's a big hit all by itself. To make the matter worst, you give it ERPPC cooldown to make it even hotter. ERPPC velocity does not help unless its higher than 30-40%. The adder's intended role is to be a heavy weapon carrier balanced by slow speed (for a light) and low armor.
So... why not give it less ERPPC heat gen as high as 20% to rectify the lack of truedubs and making it viable?
As for the rest of its bulids, 1% or 2% changes are barely noticeable... even in a controlled test.


- Second, IFRs. As you know, IFR-Prime is the worst IFR only because of its CT... decreasing its weapons by at least 20% and making it arm dependent. One would expect the prime to receive something to make it viable. reverse speed/overheat damage are something that have an absolute zero effect on any situation (unless its more than 100%).
Why not give the IFR prime CT energy quirks...like less heat as well as cool down. IFR can not boat anything... so these quirks can actually help it. Not only restricting yourself by weapon slots. CT is the only place where you can play it safe... specially if it has a key role in building a mech.
On IFR-A for example, you gave ballistic quirks on its left arm. I know it only has 1 ballistic slot there (and i can guarantee that it is never used), however you could give higher numbers to justify a UAC/LB 2/5 at least... like what you did with dragon 1N. not ballistic heat gen (seriously?). something like 50% cooldown or 50% more speed and range.


- Explain 4% MG range on summoners... please.
To rectify the JJ nerf, you could give heat gen quirks to all of its energy omnis and multiply all of your numbers by 10. so instead of 1% 2% you would get 10% and 20%.


- Gargoyle is not a missile platform. so stop anything missile related (unless its a huge cooldown buff)... and again... multiply everything by 10.

Edited by Navid A1, 18 March 2015 - 06:54 PM.

[InspectorG]

Hades Trooper, on 18 March 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:

Mate i've stacked the quirkl bonuses as much as possible for the summoner and the best i can get is 4% on missile velocity and spread 4% reduction using all 3 of the onmi pods,

4% is shitte compared to things like 10% for catapults and other 12.5% laser, 12.5% large laser bonues that satck for 25%

so don't try and bullshit me, these summoenrs quirks are pretty close to pointless and have done next to nothing to improving the summoner

not to mention the only laser buffs the summoer gets is 1 onmi pod thats 1% for laser 1% for er large, so 2% total is again craptastic when ur giving innner shpere mechs 12.5 lare 12.5 er large laser combo's,

make it 5% for each type then where talking some kinda effect.

Plus i see you nerfed the Summoner prime left arm, it went from 10% ballistic cooldown to 5% for ballsistics and some lbx buffs, nice way to claim to be buffing things while actually slipping in a nerf.

you not fooling me mate.

Summoner needed a nerf, it was too OP. PGI has to give Timbys a chance to shine. Specially when all those people paid money for Timby.

I expect an incomnig nerf for the MG quirks on the Summoner. They are gonna ruin CW.

[Yokaiko]

Mike Forst, on 18 March 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I mean with regards to quirks: there are no jumpjet quirks. I can only use the tools that I have available.

...and Paul didn't sell that as tweekable if there were issues.6

Edited by Yokaiko, 18 March 2015 - 07:52 PM.

[Mike Forst]

FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

Are there families for things like certain classes of lasers (i.e. Small Class Lasers refers to SL/ERSL/SPL) or autocannon calibers (i.e. Class 5 Autocannon refers to AC/5 UAC/5 and LB 5-X)?

The weapon families are not this narrow.

Deathlike, on 18 March 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

I'll have some Gargoyle ideas for quirks tomorrow... right now I'm a bit miffed at what I saw on the list and probably require a full thread for that...

I look forward to reading it.

Anakha, on 18 March 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

Mike any chance of endo being unlocked for the summoner and other clans that don't get it? Or unlocking JJ's now that they have been nerfed so badly? Also i understand from reading your posts that you wanted to try more defensive or movement type quirks with the first pass. Yet a mech like the Summoner did not receive hardly any increased armor or structure to all its arm omnipods where the majority of its firepower comes from. Also with 5 tons of fixed JJ's it jumps a lot and the legs get hit a lot yet no increased armor or structure to legs why was this? In addition the CT on all the summoners had 25% acc/decc and 5% speed and now that is reduced on many of them any chance of making this at least standard?

Also usable ballistic quirks in the RT where most builds put their ballistic weapons would be a godsend because we need the arms for lasers. MG range was pretty laughable nobody uses those on a summoner.

Finally the LT single missile launcher should have the majority of the missile quirks that is the iconic signature feature of the mech and i still don't see why it doesn't have 2 slots there for missiles, you can put in an lrm 20 but not 2 srm6 makes no sense to me. All the IS mechs got extra inflated hard points but the clan mechs that needed them did not. If its going to only get one i needs major cooldown quirks to be useful.

Thanks for your responses to us the feedback on the actual forums is very much appreciated!

Stuff like unlocking Endo or fixed mech equipment is beyond the scope of quirks and therefore outside the scope of what I can do.

[Bishop Steiner]

Well, most of my basic 411 can be found here:
http://mwomercs.com/...on-clan-quirks/
but a summary of the OP would be:
How about finding a common sense happy medium?

So, we go from one extreme, 40-50% (before skills and modules, mind you) cooldowns on Dragons and Centurions and Hunchbacks and Thunderbolts..... to 4% Cooldown for min-maxed Missile Summoner (used as an example as the only "stackable pod quirks on the chassis)

I get the "plan" is incremental. But how long between the incremental creeps? Are they going to be evaluated every patch? Or will it be months before they cycle around again?
And do the Increments really need to be...this small? Small incremental changes only really work if they are being constantly tweaked and adjusted. 2-3 months between (or worse, "oops we forgot about it") just doesn't work.

Especially since the chassis we are starting with are known bottom dwellers. These ARE the tier 4 and 5s of Clan Omnis.

Lets use a couple examples:

Exhibit A: The OLD TDR-9s, with it's nonsensical 50% Heat Reduction to it's ER PPCs.
Exhibit B: The "Meta" Stacked Summoner Prime/Bravo combo with a total of 4% MIssile Range Buff and 4% tighter spreads.

Common Sense Medium: Somewhere in the 46% differential between the two extremes? (Which, are called extreme for a reason). For instance, a basic 10% Missile Buff on the Bravo Arms as Missiles are it's primary weapons, and say, 5% on the Primes LT as Missiles are it's tertiary weapon system (or none at all, and focus the Prime on it's right and left arm) and you get what? A Meta-spawning 15% cooldown to Missiles.

Big scary.

There are some mechs like the DWF that one has to be careful with overlapping pod bonuses. But it's a tier 1 ANYHOW, and thus would be getting few, if any quirks. Thus, those who will get in a lather over "but WHAT IF TIMBER WOLF", well that's a bad strawman argument that just needs to be eliminated before you utter it.

As for mid tier Mechs with lots hardpoints, like the Hellbringer? Um, common sense, they get lesser percentages than lower tier mechs...just like with the IS Quirks.

THAT is how you win the Internet with quirks.

A common sense Summoner Prime Quirk Build that is conservative?
SMN-Prime Omnipods

Spoiler

[tdAdditional Structure +8[/td][tdLBX Velocity +10%[/td]

RA Omnipod (1E)	RT Omnipod	CT Omnipod	LT Omnipod (1M)	LA Omnipod (1B)	RL Omnipod	LL Omnipod
Additional Structure +11	Acceleration Rate +20%		Additional Structure +11
ERPPC Velocity +7.5%	Acceleration Rate +5%	Deceleration Rate +20%		LBX Cooldown +10%
ER PPC Heat Reduction +10%	Deceleration Rate +5%	Speed +5%	]	Ballistic Cooldown +10%
Energy Cooldown +2%[/color]
				LBX Spread -5%
				Arm Movement Rate Pitch +2%

Mind you, not saying that is "the build" for the Summoner, just using it as an example piece.

So, no this is not a "PGI need fire people!" Post, but it also isn't a Rose Colored Spectacles one, either, but an attempt at finding the objective middle ground.

Which of course means, it will be doubly as unpopular a position as taking either extreme.
I'd be happy to have zero missile quirks on the Prime, since it's a tertiary weapons system. Ditto the Nacr on the Bravo or MGs on the Delta.

Only primary weapon systems really should be quirked in the first darn place. Give the Prime a faster, tighter LB-X, and a cooler ERPPC, and it's mobility, and you have a potentially tough mobile infighter.

Heck, due to tonnage, you either need to reduce or remove the missiles to have enough ammo to justify the LB-X in the first place. And the missiles are usually used either to soften things on the way in (LRMs) or as some added oomph in a tight fight, with SRMs.

Mind you, the Summoner is just an example piece, based off my favored mech and one I know best, but the basic principle applies across the board.

[Summon3r]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 March 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

Well, most of my basic 411 can be found here:
http://mwomercs.com/...on-clan-quirks/
but a summary of the OP would be:
How about finding a common sense happy medium?

So, we go from one extreme, 40-50% (before skills and modules, mind you) cooldowns on Dragons and Centurions and Hunchbacks and Thunderbolts..... to 4% Cooldown for min-maxed Missile Summoner (used as an example as the only "stackable pod quirks on the chassis)

I get the "plan" is incremental. But how long between the incremental creeps? Are they going to be evaluated every patch? Or will it be months before they cycle around again?
And do the Increments really need to be...this small? Small incremental changes only really work if they are being constantly tweaked and adjusted. 2-3 months between (or worse, "oops we forgot about it") just doesn't work.

Especially since the chassis we are starting with are known bottom dwellers. These ARE the tier 4 and 5s of Clan Omnis.

Lets use a couple examples:

Exhibit A: The OLD TDR-9s, with it's nonsensical 50% Heat Reduction to it's ER PPCs.
Exhibit B: The "Meta" Stacked Summoner Prime/Bravo combo with a total of 4% MIssile Range Buff and 4% tighter spreads.

Common Sense Medium: Somewhere in the 46% differential between the two extremes? (Which, are called extreme for a reason). For instance, a basic 10% Missile Buff on the Bravo Arms as Missiles are it's primary weapons, and say, 5% on the Primes LT as Missiles are it's tertiary weapon system (or none at all, and focus the Prime on it's right and left arm) and you get what? A Meta-spawning 15% cooldown to Missiles.

Big scary.

There are some mechs like the DWF that one has to be careful with overlapping pod bonuses. But it's a tier 1 ANYHOW, and thus would be getting few, if any quirks. Thus, those who will get in a lather over "but WHAT IF TIMBER WOLF", well that's a bad strawman argument that just needs to be eliminated before you utter it.

As for mid tier Mechs with lots hardpoints, like the Hellbringer? Um, common sense, they get lesser percentages than lower tier mechs...just like with the IS Quirks.

THAT is how you win the Internet with quirks.

A common sense Summoner Prime Quirk Build that is conservative?
SMN-Prime Omnipods

Spoiler

[tdAdditional Structure +8[/td][tdLBX Velocity +10%[/td]

RA Omnipod (1E)	RT Omnipod	CT Omnipod	LT Omnipod (1M)	LA Omnipod (1B)	RL Omnipod	LL Omnipod
Additional Structure +11	Acceleration Rate +20%		Additional Structure +11
ERPPC Velocity +7.5%	Acceleration Rate +5%	Deceleration Rate +20%		LBX Cooldown +10%
ER PPC Heat Reduction +10%	Deceleration Rate +5%	Speed +5%	]	Ballistic Cooldown +10%
Energy Cooldown +2%[/color]
				LBX Spread -5%
				Arm Movement Rate Pitch +2%

Mind you, not saying that is "the build" for the Summoner, just using it as an example piece.

So, no this is not a "PGI need fire people!" Post, but it also isn't a Rose Colored Spectacles one, either, but an attempt at finding the objective middle ground.

Which of course means, it will be doubly as unpopular a position as taking either extreme.
I'd be happy to have zero missile quirks on the Prime, since it's a tertiary weapons system. Ditto the Nacr on the Bravo or MGs on the Delta.

Only primary weapon systems really should be quirked in the first darn place. Give the Prime a faster, tighter LB-X, and a cooler ERPPC, and it's mobility, and you have a potentially tough mobile infighter.

Heck, due to tonnage, you either need to reduce or remove the missiles to have enough ammo to justify the LB-X in the first place. And the missiles are usually used either to soften things on the way in (LRMs) or as some added oomph in a tight fight, with SRMs.

Mind you, the Summoner is just an example piece, based off my favored mech and one I know best, but the basic principle applies across the board.

if that was the Summoner Primes quirks there would nothing to complain about at all, id be a happy camper, not cause its OP at all but it is at least common sense numbers in every respect.

[Sorbic]

Man I wish the quirks weren't just buffs to weapons... cough.

[smokefield]

Is there anywhere posted a full quirk list updated to latest changes ? cause we really need a full one now.

thanks

[Loren Ward]

Did you guys notice that you actually reduced the acceleration/deceleration quirks and rate of fire quirks on the Summoner or was the nerf intentional?

[Detriitus]

Northern Nomad, on 18 March 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

Did you guys notice that you actually reduced the acceleration/deceleration quirks and rate of fire quirks on the Summoner or was the nerf intentional?

On the Prime they did not, they just split it up.

Another thought regarding build diversity on the Summoner: I like that the main weapon quirks come with the arms. But one thing the Summoner has going for it are the high ballistic hardpoints in the side torsos. If you want to use those and make use of the quirks you have to add the fitting arm as it is, but for the Summoner this is equal too giving up half of its few energy hardpoints. Thats a terrible tradeoff considering the lack of hardpoints overall.

Please consider dividing the ballistic quirks into specific arm quirks and a general ballistic boost in the ride torso. That way more builds profit and you don't reduce the number of viable configurations even more.

[Tuann]

Hi Mike,

thanks for your feedback, appreciated.
my thoughts on your feedback:
1. the changes do not seem small,.. they are small,.. so small that nobody will try them as they are pointless. so your data gathering is bugged. i am trying to understand why you'do such an insignificant change on the low tier clan mechs and keep big quirckening IS mechs...
2. there still is no rationale or logic answer as to why you actually chose the quirks you did in the patch,..`why cool down reduction on a mech that suffers from heat to make it effective ? why speed up erppc speed when this can also be done with a targeting computer ? Why ad MG range as a quirk? pretty please i am dying to see the light here, maybe i miss out a great way to make a viable or fun build
is it because you focussed on mobility? cool,.. then do not silly-buff-nerf non mobility quirks and clearly state in pass 1 we are going for mobility, try it out,.. we will do a weapon quirking in next patch,...
3. why do you think that the mobility is the reason as to why nobody plays the lovable fridge ? 20% Deceleration ?? 5% less internal heat damage ? i kindly fail to see how this will give me a viable fun build, not meta, but,.. at least a different challenge.

when i see IS quirks, they make sense, they give you a specialization option, a push to play a certain role & being rewarded for it. with the Clan quirks, it looks like you guys used a darts board.

[StarCom Drozdovskiy]

After update 17 March

Edited by StarCom Drozdovskiy, 19 March 2015 - 01:56 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tuann, on 19 March 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

Hi Mike,

thanks for your feedback, appreciated.
my thoughts on your feedback:
1. the changes do not seem small,.. they are small,.. so small that nobody will try them as they are pointless. so your data gathering is bugged. i am trying to understand why you'do such an insignificant change on the low tier clan mechs and keep big quirckening IS mechs...
2. there still is no rationale or logic answer as to why you actually chose the quirks you did in the patch,..`why cool down reduction on a mech that suffers from heat to make it effective ? why speed up erppc speed when this can also be done with a targeting computer ? Why ad MG range as a quirk? pretty please i am dying to see the light here, maybe i miss out a great way to make a viable or fun build
is it because you focussed on mobility? cool,.. then do not silly-buff-nerf non mobility quirks and clearly state in pass 1 we are going for mobility, try it out,.. we will do a weapon quirking in next patch,...
3. why do you think that the mobility is the reason as to why nobody plays the lovable fridge ? 20% Deceleration ?? 5% less internal heat damage ? i kindly fail to see how this will give me a viable fun build, not meta, but,.. at least a different challenge.

when i see IS quirks, they make sense, they give you a specialization option, a push to play a certain role & being rewarded for it. with the Clan quirks, it looks like you guys used a darts board.

I agree with the majority of this, but have 2 thoughts on specific touchstones ....

1) PPC Velocity boost is still beneficial to the Adder and Summoner, as neither realistically have the tonnage for the TC. Just 1 ton removes a DHS from the already heat burdened Adder, and precious ammo (or ANYTHING) from the Summoner.

That said, most of the stuff around those quirks could certainly be modified to more advantageous quirks.

2) You mention how specialized the IS Mech quirks are. That is one thing the Clan Quirks should NOT be, is specialized to a high degree, as the entire point of Omnis is extreme versatility over super specialization. It is nice to see they are quirking weapon families now, which give that feel, but one thing is certain, they need to STOP wasting quirks on tertiary and support weapons. The ONLY mechs that should ever see quirks on things like Flamers and MGs are mechs like the Locust or Firestarter...and then they need to be USEFUL quirks like damage boost, crit boost, etc, not range increase.

On the Omnis, each Variant's "role" weapons, primary and secondary, are what need to be focused on, such as the LB-X/ERPPC on the SMN-P, the LRMs/SRMs on the SMN-B, and the Lasers on the SMN-D. The LRM on the Prime, Narc on the Bravo and MGs on the Delta should NOT have any quirks assigned to them as they are tertiary/support weapons. (Even though it removes some of the "meta" from the Summoner by not giving more generic ballistics quirks to the STs of the Delta, I don't care, as it makes no logical sense to quirks a Summoners MGs...even if people just want to turn around and use those quirks to try to boost a GR).

Perhaps tonight I'll go over each chassis and build my "Idealized" quirk concepts.

Cheers!

[Lily from animove]

FupDup, on 16 March 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

I like that the Clan mechs are being done on a per-Omnipod basis. I also like that many identical pods, such as CT's, are being somewhat differentiated (even if not much).

...But the values on most of them seem pretty darn low. -1% laser duration? 2% missile velocity? Quirks like that won't really change the mechs' effectiveness very much.


I will say however that the +12 internal structure on the Puma's legs is pretty strong. Nearly all of the weapon quirks however...not so much.

differing CT's that are equal, like on the adder, compared to the DWF which actually does have differences, makes not much sense, it is countering the base idea of the entire omnipod sense.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 March 2015 - 06:26 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

The summoner got screwed. Put a bigger Er Ppc velocity speed buff on it, 15% should be good. Do the same to the Warhawks.