716 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Rouken, on 27 March 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Please do not try to sell burst fire on ballistics and longer duration lasers as advantages.

Of course i would not do this on any normal occassion - but sometimes when i read to much biased bs something break - and i all can do is to take the same turds and throw it the other directions - anybody that is able to keep his sanity should see that a ERLarge Laser of Clan and is do the same damage - keep target for 0.5sec for both Lasers damage is the same - if not HSR or quirks and i didn't asked for them

[Adamski]

The cERLL has 10% more range, weighs 25% less, does 15% more DPS, uses half the space. As a penalty it fires for .25s longer and uses 2.5% more heat per damage.

That is what Quirks address, because the game is balanced on a per Pilot & Ton basis, not BV.

[Chagatay]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

not 100% true, but it would be nice. Also, severity of the nerf is being way overrated, IMO. The previous one was barely noticeable. And the Clan XL is still one of the biggest overall balance issues IS/Clans.

Instead of trying to stop it in general, I intend to embrace it and use it to push that much harder for Endo. Would love it first, or simultaneously, but will work it either way.

Yeah, they can nerf it as it has no impact on my play (if I lose a ST, I usually die soon after anyways). Hopefully it will make the poor clan mechs so bad that they get ultramega quirks like their IS counterparts (I would love an adder with panther style quirks). I will probably not even notice the nerf to be honest. The heat penalty for side torso loss especially on the smaller non-10 true dub heatsink engine mechs is already beyond harsh. 20% speed is meh, they are already slow.

When they introduce super awesome IS light fusion engines I expect the same penalties.

Zolaz, on 27 March 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

Wait till the Arctic Cheater comes out. Then the Clans will have the best light, medium, heavy and assault. Hard to balance IS vs Clan when Clans have the best performing mechs.

Probably not. I am sure they will give it monkey arms or severe hitbox/geometry penalties (like all other clan lights).

Edited by Chagatay, 27 March 2015 - 09:25 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Adamski, on 27 March 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

The cERLL has 10% more range, weighs 25% less, does 15% more DPS, uses half the space. As a penalty it fires for .25s longer and uses 2.5% more heat per damage.

That is what Quirks address, because the game is balanced on a per Pilot & Ton basis, not BV.

and you left out heatefficiency, and the 0.25s beamduration are a big deal, thats why CERLL are hardly used, because thats plain bad in higher elo's

Chagatay, on 27 March 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

Yeah, they can nerf it as it has no impact on my play (if I lose a ST, I usually die soon after anyways). Hopefully it will make the poor clan mechs so bad that they get ultramega quirks like their IS counterparts (I would love an adder with panther style quirks). I will probably not even notice the nerf to be honest. The heat penalty for side torso loss especially on the smaller non-10 true dub heatsink engine mechs is already beyond harsh. 20% speed is meh, they are already slow.

When they introduce super awesome IS light fusion engines I expect the same penalties.



Probably not. I am sure they will give it monkey arms or severe hitbox/geometry penalties (like all other clan lights).

the problem is, a 150kph optimised IS FSE light will still be superior to the Adder even if losing a ST, because speed matters and dropping from 150 to 120 is okish to keep going, while droping to 100 as the clanmechs, is a dead sitting duck.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 March 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[Chagatay]

Lily from animove, on 27 March 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

the problem is, a 150kph optimised IS FSE light will still be superior to the Adder even if losing a ST, because speed matters and dropping from 150 to 120 is okish to keep going, while droping to 100 as the clanmechs, is a dead sitting duck.

Probably. That is ok as it isn't like clan lights (redheaded step children of clanners) can get worse and are mostly just taken to put bigger stuff in the drop deck (hooray for Mist Lynx). The FSE, however, is the real game changer for IS mediums (currently the redheaded step children in the IS lineup other than the few super quirked chassis out there). But with looming drop deck size increases and the dominance of Firestarters the need to take IS mediums isn't there anyways.

<proceeds to kick his favorite mech, the GRF into the abyss >

Edited by Chagatay, 27 March 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 27 March 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

and you left out heatefficiency, and the 0.25s beamduration are a big deal, thats why CERLL are hardly used, because thats plain bad in higher elo's

so they use what? Machine Guns - must be there is no other weapon system in the Clans arsenal that is identically to the IS but for 50% weight. same with the Flammer
And we have complete forgotten the AMS ammunition - twice the shots
so two aspects where the Clans are twice as good - obvious OP

oh and did i mentioned the weight of the Mistlynx - it weights 25,000 kg - while the IS Commando weights only 25tons. Clearly an advantage of 3 digest

Sorry - this is getting ridiculous - BAIL OUT

[Mcgral18]

Karl Streiger, on 27 March 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

And we have complete forgotten the AMS ammunition - twice the shots

They are the same.

[Adamski]

Lily from animove, on 27 March 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

and you left out heatefficiency, and the 0.25s beamduration are a big deal, thats why CERLL are hardly used, because thats plain bad in higher elo's





the problem is, a 150kph optimised IS FSE light will still be superior to the Adder even if losing a ST, because speed matters and dropping from 150 to 120 is okish to keep going, while droping to 100 as the clanmechs, is a dead sitting duck.

I included all of the differences between the weapons, but different pilots prioritize different things depending on role / build / specialty. Besides, I've seen way too many Clan pilots harping on about how with quirks some IS builds using ERLL can out range the cERLL, so obviously it has value to some people.

I'm not even sure the Adder would lose to a FS9 if it weren't for broken hitboxes or could focus on its legs. (Adder has Structure bonus quirks, has the same Alpha as the FS9-A but has 330m range vs 130m, FS9-A has about 15% more sustained dps)

Edited by Adamski, 27 March 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Chagatay]

Karl Streiger, on 27 March 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

so they use what? Machine Guns - must be there is no other weapon system in the Clans arsenal that is identically to the IS but for 50% weight. same with the Flammer
And we have complete forgotten the AMS ammunition - twice the shots
so two aspects where the Clans are twice as good - obvious OP

oh and did i mentioned the weight of the Mistlynx - it weights 25,000 kg - while the IS Commando weights only 25tons. Clearly an advantage of 3 digest

Sorry - this is getting ridiculous - BAIL OUT

I look forward to the new meta of machine guns and flamers as it is bound to happen eventually. AMS ammo is now the same for both IS and clans. I like both (Commando can be very scary but that is due to the pilot*).

*who knows he is driving a weaker super fast light and is crazy enough not to care. Kamikaze Commando is the new locust.

[Aethon]

Chagatay, on 27 March 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

I look forward to the new meta of machine guns and flamers as it is bound to happen eventually. AMS ammo is now the same for both IS and clans. I like both (Commando can be very scary but that is due to the pilot*).

*who knows he is driving a weaker super fast light and is crazy enough not to care. Kamikaze Commando is the new locust.

Honestly, the guy in the Commando always puts me on guard more than the guy in the Firestarter. Every tryhard, regardless of skill level, will run a Firestarter (or sometimes Huginn) to offset their skill (or lack thereof); when someone pilots a Commando, it is usually because they actually want a challenge.

Adamski, on 27 March 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

I included all of the differences between the weapons, but different pilots prioritize different things depending on role / build / specialty. Besides, I've seen way too many Clan pilots harping on about how with quirks some IS builds using ERLL can out range the cERLL, so obviously it has value to some people.

I'm not even sure the Adder would lose to a FS9 if it weren't for broken hitboxes or could focus on its legs. (Adder has Structure bonus quirks, has the same Alpha as the FS9-A but has 330m range vs 130m, FS9-A has about 15% more sustained dps)

There has to be a massive difference in skill, as well as possibly luck, between the two pilots before an Adder will ever beat a Firestarter, unless it is carrying Streaks...in which case, it will die before doing anything meaningful to a larger mech.

Adamski, on 27 March 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

The cERLL has 10% more range, weighs 25% less, does 15% more DPS, uses half the space. As a penalty it fires for .25s longer and uses 2.5% more heat per damage.

That is what Quirks address, because the game is balanced on a per Pilot & Ton basis, not BV.

Something to keep in mind: Clans do not have a standard Large Laser. More often than not, the ER bit makes zero difference; it makes our ER Large Laser perform even worse, when compared to the actual staple IS Large Laser.

Edited by Aethon, 27 March 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[Adamski]

That is where the cLPL pulls double duty, it has 600m optimal, 13 dmg, 10 heat, 6 tons
The IS Large Laser has 450m optima, 9 dmg, 7 heat, 5 tons

Put them at 2 cLPL vs 3 LL and they are 26 dmg/ 20 heat / 12 tons VS 27 dmg / 21 heat / 15 tons

EDIT: I also specified that the Firestarter would need its hitboxes fixed before the Adder could solo it. Something everyone should be able to agree needs to be done (fix hit boxes)

Edited by Adamski, 27 March 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[CrushLibs]

Here is the difference Iam showing GROSS advantages on both sides while the whinny clans are OP people are like flamers weight twice as much or more ams ammo or longer duration is a good thing or this and that on stuff that is MEANINGLESS.

Flamers are worthless who cares.

Also comparing non er to er lasers is meaningless too.

IS mechs are quirked up the ass hell a damn crab has 17 added armor to the torsos. A TDR vs a GAR the TDR even being a lighter mech takes more damage on its internals to kill (been tested) So the armor and interals quirks onto of the weapons.

IS ERL can out range clan by 100+ meters much less the PPC quirks

Clan are supposed to be better , lighter , longer , more stuff but PGI is trying to balance and failing. Trying to justify the HUGE advantage alot of IS mechs have over 90% of the clan mech is redick.

Adanski do you find it interesting the hit boxes on alot of IS mechs are broken but new clan mechs are easy to hit and kill?? Enforcer needs to be added to the FS , Spider list. TW JJ hitboxes needs fixing too.

Whole damn game needs to be reworked

[Gyrok]

Adamski, on 27 March 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

The cERLL has 10% more range, weighs 25% less, does 15% more DPS, uses half the space. As a penalty it fires for .25s longer and uses 2.5% more heat per damage.

That is what Quirks address, because the game is balanced on a per Pilot & Ton basis, not BV.

Actually 911m IS ERLL says that the 802m CERLL loses in range, with the reduction in beam, the effective DPS actually favors the IS, because the shorter burn duration is a massive buff, and of course, the CERLL runs hotter, significantly hotter...only C/ERPPCs are hotter.

[Adamski]

I am in a constant state of annoyance to rage at the hitboxes and model sizes in this game. It is because of these failures that mech receive armor and structure quirks, but they are applied in a haphazard manner.

The only way that the IS ERLL can outrange the cERLL by 100m is with a 25% quirk (10% brings them equal, 25% gives 100m bonus). The cERLL is still going to weigh a ton less AND use a slot less.

Like I've said though, Quirks are trying to bring IS mechs up to SCR / TBR levels (Shadow Cat & Ebon Jaguar too). The underperforming Clan mechs need help, but leaving the cXL alone is not going to help balance.

[Adamski]

Gyrok, just shut the FK up already. Yes, if you stack every single quirk and advantage on the same IS mech it would be overpowered, until that happens, just shut the FK up and go farm PUGs with your 12man.

[Mcgral18]

Adamski, on 27 March 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

I am in a constant state of annoyance to rage at the hitboxes and model sizes in this game. It is because of these failures that mech receive armor and structure quirks, but they are applied in a haphazard manner.

The only way that the IS ERLL can outrange the cERLL by 100m is with a 25% quirk (10% brings them equal, 25% gives 100m bonus). The cERLL is still going to weigh a ton less AND use a slot less.

Like I've said though, Quirks are trying to bring IS mechs up to SCR / TBR levels (Shadow Cat & Ebon Jaguar too). The underperforming Clan mechs need help, but leaving the cXL alone is not going to help balance.

They can also deal 27 damage VS the 22 of the Clams, at similar (longer or shorter depends on quirks), in less time, for 4 more points of heat, without taking quirks into account, while also not triggering Ghost Heat.

To use 1 GH level (33 damage VS 36) heat is almost identical, at 37.2 for the Clams and 38.72 for the IS.



Quirks change those numbers. They make Maths tedious.
IS lasers cost more tonnage, but are pretty effective.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 March 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[Adamski]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

They can also deal 27 damage VS the 22 of the Clams, at similar (longer or shorter depends on quirks), in less time, for 4 more points of heat, without taking quirks into account, while also not triggering Ghost Heat.

To use 1 GH level (33 damage VS 36) heat is almost identical, at 37.2 for the Clams and 38.72 for the IS.



Quirks change those numbers. They make Maths tedious.
IS lasers cost more tonnage, but are pretty effective.

That 27 v 22 number is 15 tons of weapons vs 8 and 6 crits vs 2, or almost DOUBLE THE TONNAGE and THREE TIMES THE SPACE.

[Mcgral18]

Adamski, on 27 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

That 27 v 22 number is 15 tons of weapons vs 8 and 6 crits vs 2, or almost DOUBLE THE TONNAGE and THREE TIMES THE SPACE.

For considerably better performance.

Take it, or leave it. Your choice.

[Adamski]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

For considerably better performance.

Take it, or leave it. Your choice.

yes, 87.5% more tonnage and 300% more space, not counting the extra hardpoint required for 23% more damage and using 20% more heat. To be equipped on a mech that uses an engine that is either twice the weight or goes slower and needs endo steel that takes up twice the room of the Clan equivalent.

That sure is considerably better performance.

EDIT: Added heat

Edited by Adamski, 27 March 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[CrushLibs]

Adamski, on 27 March 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

The only way that the IS ERLL can outrange the cERLL by 100m is with a 25% quirk (10% brings them equal, 25% gives 100m bonus). The cERLL is still going to weigh a ton less AND use a slot less.

Good point lets take a look

Locust 1E , 1M - 25% energy range
Locust 1V - 15% energy range
Locust 1S - 12.5% energy range
Locust PB - 10% energy range

COM 1B , 1D - 20% energy range
Death Knell - 7.5% energy range

Spider 5D - 10% energy range
Spider 5V - 30% energy range

FS9-A - 7.5% energy range
FS9-H & K - 10% energy range

JR7 -F - 7.5% energy range

PNT -8Z - 25% energy range
PNT -9R - 15% energy range

RVN-2X - 10% energy range
RVN-4X - 30% energy range

Cicada class - 7.5% to 20% energy range
Black Jack class - 10% to 15% energy range
Vindicator st ivers blues - 15% energy range
ENF-4R - 12.5% energy range
HBK-4G - 15% energy range
Grid Iron - 25% energy range

List goes on and on , nearly EVERY mech in the IS has a large laser and/or energy range that gives it a range advantage over clan. Thunberbolts are the worst for laser quirks