716 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Johnny Z, on 26 March 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

100% right. This is why IS XL should do a shutdown on side torso loss instead of insta BOOM. Then if they get a chance to start up again, how ever unlikely, they will suffer the same 20% speed loss as Omni XL's do. Clan still have their easy mode engine that doesnt have much of a penalty. Meanwhile IS XL's have a much needed improvement. This is the way it will probly be done when all is said and done.

The question is, what kind of bonus should the IS standard engine get?

I could see something like that happening as a last resort if it's determined that IS XL engines are just too fragile, but I don't like it and would rather see about a dozen other things happen first.

[Gyrok]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 March 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

LFE aren't on the table, and they aren't the answer in the first place. Trying to avoid the hit by giving the IS something they get in a few years anyway, which will suffer the SAME consequences on ST destruction btw and still have a tonnage deficit over the Clan XL is not exactly balanced, or is that being missed somehow?

10-20% speed drop is not the death sentence you guys make it out to be, FACT. Loss of a side torso means you get dead fast or you killed what was firing at you and are still able to function, it's one or the other, we all know this, so why the hyperbole?

PGI is the one putting this option out, I think it's logical and justified, and I'm willing to bet my Bloodname it is better than what they'd do if this isn't something the playerbase can live with, or if it doesn't work as PGI wants it to. Any one of you doubt that even for a second? They've already nerfed the Clans in ways that they shouldn't have, too much heat on the lasers, beam durations being too damn high, uAC bursts being too widely spaced and OmniPods being restrictive as all hell instead of being OMNIPODS.

Stop, think, this is PGI we're talking about here. This is a logical and minimally invasive change to the Clan XL, it's on par with the IS XL side torso loss without being even remotely close to being as harsh. This is NOT something PGI usually does, and this is the second time they've done something so minimal concerning the Clan XL ST destruction. Clans are obviously doing better in CW than PGI wants, not like we can't SEE that happening, and don't even try the 'l2p' argument, it doesn't hold water when the Clan vs Clan and IS vs IS stats aren't showing the same differences, we can SEE that ourselves on the CW map.

Once this is done, we can then try to get the Clan nerfs reduced, get the OmniPods fixed, and for Kerensky's sake, get the bloody quirks redone in a logical manner, no range/cd quirks, heat reduction based on specific weapons only when fluff/lore backs it up, getting MECH quirks as they should have been all along(thank you Sean, why PGI listened to him), speed, torso twist/pitch/yaw, arm pitch/yaw/speed, sensors, cooling factor, armor, interior structure, you know, MECH quirks that fit the damn Mech, not weapons quirks that make IS Mechs outrange and outgun Clan Mechs across the entire damn board.

I do NOT think the Clans are OP, I think the Clan XL needs a detrimental effect when the ST is blown off. Otherwise, the Clans need BUFFS to the majority of the OmniMechs, they are seriously underpowered. IS quirks are SERIOUSLY OP and need to be redone.

As it stands, the builds that the heat penalty hits hardest are the sword and board builds with a shield side. Which, when combined take a 20% heat penalty, and lose 50% of their external heat sinks...it really gimps the crap out of them already.

The symmetrical builds tend to not have issues...remarkably, because of hardpoint layout, basically all TW builds are symmetrical. Meaning they are impacted much less than mechs like the HBR, or DW, or what have you. Same with the SCR.

If you want the heat penalty to be effective on those mechs then why not increase it on those mechs only, when they lose a ST?

Where as all the other clans have 20%...why not make the heat penalty on those 2 robots 30-40%?

Would that not be a reasonable, and acceptable nerf?

As for the speed loss...it makes them fall behind the group, when they need the group most...which is, in fact, a complete death sentence.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gyrok, the most cooling lost is less than 45% total capacity, and that's if you have NOTHING but 10 external DHS on the side lost, which means literally having nothing but DHS in the ST and arm, have to remove both actuators in the arm to manage it. Math has been done already, it's even in this thread a couple of times already. Most Clan Omni's see a 25 to 30% loss of capacity, that's it, and it's literally not enough to notice.

I pointed this out a number of times, you keep trying to make it out that the heat hit would create a 70% heat capacity loss, and that's just blatantly false. If it was even close to that, the forums would have exploded when the heat hit was first put in, and no such thing has happened. Most people think the heat hit is something TO BE ADDED! They don't even realize it's been in play for a while now, it's SO damn underwhelming, no one notices. Some nub blew the right torso off my Hellbringer, left my LPL left alone, I went from running hot to running slightly hotter, so much hotter that I literally didn't notice and I'm AWARE of the heat hit and was looking to see just how bad it would get, since I lost none of my weapons and had a 20% heat loss hit. My heat didn't change enough to make any difference. You can keep trying to make out it's worse, the math shows otherwise Gyrok. Loss of external heatsinks hurts, but since that's not where the majority of your cooling comes from, it's not enough to notice, hence the entire reason PGI wants to do the speed hit.

And since when does a Mech running 40kph faster than the rest of the pack have problems keeping up when it drops it's speed by 20kph? Or a Mech running 53kph losing a massive 10kph even really notice that loss? That IS the speed drop we're talking about Gyrok, 10kph for a Dire Wolf, the slowest Clan Mech and a massive 23kph for the Arctic Cheetah once we get it and you have Speed Tweak on it, drops from over 130 to 113kph, that IS the two extremes for the Clans, fastest and slowest, 10 to 23kph loss if they go with the 20%, half that if they go with the 10%, WHICH IS WHAT PGI SAID, 10-20% SPEED LOSS combined with the existing heat hit that no one even realized was in the game.

Enough of the hyperbole Gyrok, the math has been presented multiple times and you keep tossing out totally bs numbers based on nothing but fear mongering and hysteria.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 March 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Gyrok, the most cooling lost is less than 45% total capacity, and that's if you have NOTHING but 10 external DHS on the side lost, which means literally having nothing but DHS in the ST and arm, have to remove both actuators in the arm to manage it. Math has been done already, it's even in this thread a couple of times already. Most Clan Omni's see a 25 to 30% loss of capacity, that's it, and it's literally not enough to notice.

Especially since they also see a commensurate loss in firepower and thus, heat generated, in most cases.

[Gyrok]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 March 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Gyrok, the most cooling lost is less than 45% total capacity, and that's if you have NOTHING but 10 external DHS on the side lost, which means literally having nothing but DHS in the ST and arm, have to remove both actuators in the arm to manage it. Math has been done already, it's even in this thread a couple of times already. Most Clan Omni's see a 25 to 30% loss of capacity, that's it, and it's literally not enough to notice.

I pointed this out a number of times, you keep trying to make it out that the heat hit would create a 70% heat capacity loss, and that's just blatantly false. If it was even close to that, the forums would have exploded when the heat hit was first put in, and no such thing has happened. Most people think the heat hit is something TO BE ADDED! They don't even realize it's been in play for a while now, it's SO damn underwhelming, no one notices. Some nub blew the right torso off my Hellbringer, left my LPL left alone, I went from running hot to running slightly hotter, so much hotter that I literally didn't notice and I'm AWARE of the heat hit and was looking to see just how bad it would get, since I lost none of my weapons and had a 20% heat loss hit. My heat didn't change enough to make any difference. You can keep trying to make out it's worse, the math shows otherwise Gyrok. Loss of external heatsinks hurts, but since that's not where the majority of your cooling comes from, it's not enough to notice, hence the entire reason PGI wants to do the speed hit.

And since when does a Mech running 40kph faster than the rest of the pack have problems keeping up when it drops it's speed by 20kph? Or a Mech running 53kph losing a massive 10kph even really notice that loss? That IS the speed drop we're talking about Gyrok, 10kph for a Dire Wolf, the slowest Clan Mech and a massive 23kph for the Arctic Cheetah once we get it and you have Speed Tweak on it, drops from over 130 to 113kph, that IS the two extremes for the Clans, fastest and slowest, 10 to 23kph loss if they go with the 20%, half that if they go with the 10%, WHICH IS WHAT PGI SAID, 10-20% SPEED LOSS combined with the existing heat hit that no one even realized was in the game.

Enough of the hyperbole Gyrok, the math has been presented multiple times and you keep tossing out totally bs numbers based on nothing but fear mongering and hysteria.

I said...*AHEM*:

"Why not increase the heat penalty for ST loss on those specific mechs to 30-40% specifically since the mostly symmetrical builds suffer less penalty proportionately?"

EDIT: You lose 20% of engine heatsinks as well, in case you were also unaware of that...which means you lose 2-3 true dubs on most clan mechs, which hurts significantly...

Edited by Gyrok, 27 March 2015 - 03:35 PM.

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

If you want the heat penalty to be effective on those mechs then why not increase it on those mechs only, when they lose a ST?

Where as all the other clans have 20%...why not make the heat penalty on those 2 robots 30-40%?

Would that not be a reasonable, and acceptable nerf?

How is that reasonable to arbitrarily penalize 2 mechs more than the others?

Quote

As for the speed loss...it makes them fall behind the group, when they need the group most...which is, in fact, a complete death sentence.

If you need the group that much then don't lag behind or get caught in a situation where you can't catch up if you lose speed, 20% speed loss is not enough that you can't catch up unless you play poorly.

[CrushLibs]

PGI has been increasing heat on clan mechs over the last 5 months the ERmed laser wasn't 6 heat and when they raised it the NOVA became useless.

RUSS is in nerf mode for clan and IS is in quirk mode and its becoming annoying and driving off players and costing PGI money

[Mcgral18]

CrushLibs, on 27 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

PGI has been increasing heat on clan mechs over the last 5 months the ERmed laser wasn't 6 heat and when they raised it the NOVA became useless.

RUSS is in nerf mode for clan and IS is in quirk mode and its becoming annoying and driving off players and costing PGI money

8 more Clams are getting touched on the 7th.

We'll find out if the Myth Lynx and NoVa keep their 10% less heat, to offset the 20% and 50% extra heat.

[Johnny Z]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

I said...*AHEM*:

"Why not increase the heat penalty for ST loss on those specific mechs to 30-40% specifically since the mostly symmetrical builds suffer less penalty proportionately?"

EDIT: You lose 20% of engine heatsinks as well, in case you were also unaware of that...which means you lose 2-3 true dubs on most clan mechs, which hurts significantly...

I agree the heat penalty for side torso loss should be increased to 30% - 40% in addition to the 20% speed loss.

But it may be best to see how the 20% speed decrease goes first.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 March 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[Gyrok]

Pjwned, on 27 March 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

How is that reasonable to arbitrarily penalize 2 mechs more than the others?

How is it reasonable to arbitrarily penalize 13 mechs because people mistakenly think 2 chassis out of 13 are OP?

Pjwned, on 27 March 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

If you need the group that much then don't lag behind or get caught in a situation where you can't catch up if you lose speed, 20% speed loss is not enough that you can't catch up unless you play poorly.

When you have a group of mechs moving at 89 kph in a push, and another moving at 70 kph. There is an issue with the lagging mechs. Sure, you can accommodate it; however, it unfairly penalizes your team to have to babysit that mech, or it unfairly penalizes that player. It also unfairly penalizes that player when trying to escape, and unfairly penalizes that player when fighting, beyond their current handicap with heat and lost components/weapons.

Edited by Gyrok, 28 March 2015 - 12:09 AM.

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

How is it reasonable to arbitrarily penalize 13 mechs because people mistakenly think 2 chassis out of 13 are OP?

Because it's a fair & consistent penalty for the equipment (that is not arbitrary at all, especially compared to your idea) and the mechs are only penalized as a consequence of having that equipment, unlike your suggestion which is picking and choosing mechs to penalize more than others. I notice you didn't argue the notion that your suggestion is arbitrary by the way, probably because it clearly is arbitrary.

Quote

When you have a group of mechs moving at 89 kph in a push, and another moving at 70 kph. There is an issue with the lagging mechs. Sure, you can accommodate it; however, it unfairly penalizes your team to have to babysit that mech, or it unfairly penalizes that player. It also unfairly penalizes that player when trying to escape, and unfairly penalizes that player when fighting, beyond their current handicap with heat and lost components/weapons.

It's not an unfair penalty because 2 crit 50% weight XL engines are unfairly powerful without an appropriate penalty, regardless of what mech has it equipped, and the penalty is only applied on side torso loss which you should be avoiding anyways instead of shrugging it off because the penalty is of little consequence. You're also assuming that you won't have any bigger, slower mechs to accompany you or that you can't be of much (any?) use to the team just because you're going a little slower, which to me would sound like a personal problem in either case.

Edited by Pjwned, 28 March 2015 - 01:48 AM.

[CrushLibs]

Gyrok, on 28 March 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

When you have a group of mechs moving at 89 kph in a push, and another moving at 70 kph. There is an issue with the lagging mechs. Sure, you can accommodate it; however, it unfairly penalizes your team to have to babysit that mech, or it unfairly penalizes that player. It also unfairly penalizes that player when trying to escape, and unfairly penalizes that player when fighting, beyond their current handicap with heat and lost components/weapons.

I just wished my DW could go 70 kph heck even 60 would rock

[TheLuc]

No to LFE

[Pjwned]

CrushLibs, on 27 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

PGI has been increasing heat on clan mechs over the last 5 months the ERmed laser wasn't 6 heat and when they raised it the NOVA became useless.

RUSS is in nerf mode for clan and IS is in quirk mode and its becoming annoying and driving off players and costing PGI money

PGI should have lowered IS medium & small laser heat by 1 each instead, and then maybe still increase C-ER ML heat after that, but that's still not the first thing they should have done.

Edited by Pjwned, 28 March 2015 - 09:34 PM.

[Grimmjow]

yeah surely this one change will completely fix the balance of 40 different mechs...

The real solution is don't ******* play CW if you are that concerned about IS vs Clan balance. CW is **** anyway so whatever.

[dimachaerus]

This whole idea is still asinine, to penalize the Timber and Stormcrow, you are going to bork the underperforming clan mechs even harder. Hell, I don't even think the two mechs in question are OP in any way, they just need some hitbox/animation fixes and they'll be golden.

I kill timbers andStormcrows all day erry day and have no problems at all, the Timber is hilariously easy to shred the ST's off of, and the Stormcrow has monster legs. The only thing that bugs me is a symptom of the heat system MWO implements, not anything to do with clan or IS mechs.

Our heat Caps are simply too high, and that allows for alphawarrior online to be a thing. As has been said before by myself and many others, drop the heat cap to 30 MAXIMUM, make all DHS true DHS, and voila, people actually have to manage their heat much more closely and can't just mash the laservomit button over and over again.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Especially since they also see a commensurate loss in firepower and thus, heat generated, in most cases.

Except It hammers laser Hellbringers.

[Adamski]

dimachaerus, on 28 March 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

This whole idea is still asinine, to penalize the Timber and Stormcrow, you are going to bork the underperforming clan mechs even harder. Hell, I don't even think the two mechs in question are OP in any way, they just need some hitbox/animation fixes and they'll be golden.

I kill timbers andStormcrows all day erry day and have no problems at all, the Timber is hilariously easy to shred the ST's off of, and the Stormcrow has monster legs. The only thing that bugs me is a symptom of the heat system MWO implements, not anything to do with clan or IS mechs.

Our heat Caps are simply too high, and that allows for alphawarrior online to be a thing. As has been said before by myself and many others, drop the heat cap to 30 MAXIMUM, make all DHS true DHS, and voila, people actually have to manage their heat much more closely and can't just mash the laservomit button over and over again.

I'm pretty sure once you add in the 2x Basic Pilot skills, everyone does have True DHS (or pretty damn close).

The cXL engine needs this change, because it is currently too powerful, regardless of what it will do to the Summoner.

Just like ECM needs a big ol' grand slam of the nerf bat, even though it will hurt the CMD-2D.

The Summoner, Gargoyle, and other Clan mechs will have to wait on quirks / mechlab changes to become competitive, just like MANY IS variants are doing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Except It hammers laser Hellbringers.

depends which side you lose.

Adamski, on 28 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure once you add in the 2x Basic Pilot skills, everyone does have True DHS (or pretty damn close).

The cXL engine needs this change, because it is currently too powerful, regardless of what it will do to the Summoner.

Just like ECM needs a big ol' grand slam of the nerf bat, even though it will hurt the CMD-2D.

The Summoner, Gargoyle, and other Clan mechs will have to wait on quirks / mechlab changes to become competitive, just like MANY IS variants are doing.

exactly this.

And the Summoner and Nova are my favorite Clan Mechs. But I am able to see the big picture a heck of a lot better than some folks can, apparently.

[Mcgral18]

Adamski, on 28 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure once you add in the 2x Basic Pilot skills, everyone does have True DHS (or pretty damn close).

Better until 17, worse after 18. 10 is actually 11.5 TrueDubs (2.3 H/s dissipation) with the 15% bonus.

The 10 buffed TrueDubs make up for the gimped PoorDubs until that point.

I can Maths it if you want.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 March 2015 - 03:38 PM.