716 replies to this topic

[KharnZor]

Mcgral18, on 01 April 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Something that justifies a oversized light mech moving under 100 KPh, with nerfed (under 10) TrueDubs, while also having unoptimised construction?


Better be worth it.

Seems like you only read half my post Mcgral.

[Yokaiko]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 April 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

I support it because it's a logical fix to an obvious imbalance in regards to the XL engines and it's no where near as damaging as made out by Gyrok and his supporters, that's been shown through the math multiple times and keeps being ignored because it doesn't fit their agenda. Not to mention the massive amount of outright lies and hyperbole they keep tossing out, it's rather telling don't you think? Not to mention they continue to make this out to be a player initiated and created thing despite the fact that it was Russ who brought it up and that that has been pointed out time and time again and yet they continue to make it out to be the 'no skilled IS losers' who are SCREAMING for this. Sorry, but you lost any semblance of logic or reasonableness with that the FIRST time it was used, the continued use is making Kanye look like a reasonable guy.

And you might want to actually check the community's response, I don't think you'll find the anti-change crowd is actually all that big, tends to be a small section of the community speaking against the proposed changes.

If you support it its likely wrong.

Oh and by the way Russ said on twitter it was off the table.

[Gyrok]

Ultimatum X, on 01 April 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Discuss.

Stop twisting things to suit your logic. There were also TONS of bad IS builds too, and lots of trial mechs on the IS side as well. In fact that aspect was likely close to even.

They ran you out of the reddit thread and you come here?

53% is well within a 5% margin of error over a 6000 match sample size to predict outcomes. Consider everything that many people have been telling anyone who would listen all along that clans are basically balanced. That includes people running the "uber god tier mechs" according to you. Which must mean the good mechs are on par, and the bad mechs are really bad for the clans. Because that includes groups like 228 and MS running clans all weekend.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Ultimatum X, on 01 April 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Discuss.

So keep on buffing up the IS? Are they really so bad? Are the Clans really so OP?

IS can have non death XLs if the CLans get shorter beam lasers, 1 or 2 shot UACs with minimal jam chance, 15/15 CERPPC and 2.0 true dubs.

Atm, IS seem to have all the advantages that matter. shorter beam times, PPFLD ACs, all the nice quirks that actually make a difference. better clumpy LRMs...

So far, my Zeus is 14 kills, 2 deaths, 4w 2l, only in in all but 2 of those games, I dealt over 650dmg, as high as 800....

Some of the IS Stuff seems kinda OP, dual mount AC5s? 10dmg every 1.5s? velocity that actually is worth something and 10 dmg just like the CERPPC that has to give 15 heat to deal....

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

The only weirdo idea I've been able to think of would be to make engines able to be critted out like most components, with the IS XL having way way higher health than the Clan version. So, the Clan version could still survive that side torso loss, but it would be vulnerable to "crit seekers" like LBX and MGs etc. Meanwhile, the IS version would be tougher against those but would still die upon side torso loss.

That doesn't completely close the gap, especially because crit-seeking guns are poop right now, but that's about all I can think of in terms of buffing the IS engines. It also has the potential to make TTK complaints more valid if RNJesus doesn't love you enough.

The IS having more engine size freedom helps give some minor degree of "asymmetric balance" to an extent, but then again we have some Clan robots that get a "just right" base chassis (including good engine size) right out of the box...



I've seen some people in the past suggest that the IS XL should survive a side torso loss but with a steep penalty, but that might or might not cause issues with things like STD engine relevancy. I'm not a big fan of this one specific idea...

There was once a related idea that IS CASE should let an XL engine survive side torso loss, but for only 0.5 tons and 1 slot that would be pretty bonkers and basically a 1 ton and 2 slot tax to the majority of IS mechs...

Maybe something more moderate (from my own imagination this time) could be to make IS CASE give a little bit of durability (I dunno, like +3 or +4 internal structure? It's only 0.5 tons...) to side torsos? That would allow people to slightly toughen up their sides if they wanted to spend a little bit of weight, without going all the way to crazytown with outright survival of the side loss. Plus IS CASE is about as common as unicorns anyways, so it getting a little buff probably couldn't hurt.

10 per ST would be a better number for CASE, costing a half ton and crit slot each.

PGI will also have to change the engines, if they haven't already. In the past (R&R era) all engine crit slots were the same, so destroying a single crit slot on an engine (rather, inflicting 10 or 15 damage, whatever it was) would destroy the whole thing, rather than just that one crit slot.

KharnZor, on 01 April 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

Seems like you only read half my post Mcgral.

All the lights already have Endo+Ferro
Badder will benefit from a 5th E hardpoint, but it would benefit from from a 250XL engine (or 245, if you want TT rules) since it then gets 10 TrueDubs.

Cute Fox and Myth Lynx (and Urbie) require 12 DHS to get the same dissipation as a 250 rated mech with only the 10 engine DHS, because they only get 7 TrueDubs, and the PoorDubs are that bad.

Aside from the Lynx, the Clan lights are exceedingly wide. They'll need their full dissipation if you intend to nerf it.

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 April 2015 - 04:20 PM.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 01 April 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

10 per ST would be a better number for CASE, costing a half ton and crit slot each.

PGI will also have to change the engines, if they haven't already. In the past (R&R era) all engine crit slots were the same, so destroying a single crit slot on an engine (rather, inflicting 10 or 15 damage, whatever it was) would destroy the whole thing, rather than just that one crit slot.

+10 structure is a pretty significant number for just half a ton...that's almost a 25% boost for even 100 ton assaults. For smaller mechs their relative boost is even higher... Maybe 5 or 6 if we really need to? Just barely high enough to be worth it, just low enough to not be another "tax" mechanic on the majority of builds.

Edited by FupDup, 01 April 2015 - 05:47 PM.

[Deathlike]

Well, my IS CASE change would simply be a massive reduction in ammo explosion damage... like 80% (or some # based on some criteria if necessary) of whatever the intended damage happens to be, and whatever is left is dealt to the internal structure... this would allow XL with CASE to use it at one's own risk though.

Whatever I guess.

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Maybe something more moderate (from my own imagination this time) could be to make IS CASE give a little bit of durability (I dunno, like +3 or +4 internal structure? It's only 0.5 tons...) to side torsos? That would allow people to slightly toughen up their sides if they wanted to spend a little bit of weight, without going all the way to crazytown with outright survival of the side loss. Plus IS CASE is about as common as unicorns anyways, so it getting a little buff probably couldn't hurt.

Couldn't you just scale that base that on tonnage or something? I guess a fixed number could be OK, but more internal structure probably wouldn't solve too much. Remember that you need to factor in what .5 tons of STD/FF armor would equal to as a balance factor.

It would be technically useless on a Jenner anyways (being all CT).

[SaltBeef]

After the lasr event In CW I recant my previous statement. The Clans are nerfed enough! All I saw was the same overquirked Cookie Cutter IS mechs over and over again, multiple LL TDR,s, multipke LL stalkers, AC Dragon, Phase armor firestarter, LL ecm raven, LL locust, Duel guass Jagermech, guass shadowcat. Clans were outranged, outfired by Rate of fire, overheating constantly....losing most matches but meeting high damage lower kills. Most clan mechs cannot trade off weapons fire toe to toe w/o overheating having to back away holding fire which guarentees a side torso loss. 48 player mechs losing match after match. Event felt biased like a IS pilot feelgood moral event. My experience was that that was Tukkayid. Mind you I was pugging CW and most pugs went up against 12 mans so that is probably why we got stomped in almost all modes . I have the end match screen saves to prove it from the event. I got my free mech but a bad taste left in my mouth from the event. Another thread said we lost 50 planets during the event ...that sounds about right but not because of any bug......overquirk...overnerf are the cause.

Edited by SaltBeef, 01 April 2015 - 06:29 PM.

[Yokaiko]

SaltBeef, on 01 April 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

After the lasr event In CW I recant my previous statement. The Clans are nerfed enough! All I saw was the same overquirked Cookie Cutter IS mechs over and over again, multiple LL TDR,s, multipke LL stalkers, AC Dragon, Phase armor firestarter, LL ecm raven, LL locust, Duel guass Jagermech, guass shadowcat. Clans were outranged, outfired by Rate of fire, overheating constantly....losing most matches but meeting high damage lower kills. Most clan mechs cannot trade off weapons fire toe to toe w/o overheating having to back away holding fire which guarentees a side torso loss. 48 player mechs losing match after match. Event felt biased like a IS pilot feelgood moral event. My experience was that that was Tukkayid. Mind you I was pugging CW and most pugs went up against 12 mans so that is probably why we got stomped in almost all modes . I have the end match screen saves to prove it from the event. I got my free mech but a bad taste left in my mouth from the event. Another thread said we lost 50 planets during the event ...that sounds about right but not because of any bug......overquirk...overnerf are the cause.

To be fair clan lost by volume of ecm by dudes in trials with lrm 1000.

.....seriously, I close my eyes I see INCOMING MISSILE offer and over.

[SaltBeef]

What else they got, clan guass, clan LPL ( lava hot) , med lasers ( firewalking ), CERPPC if you fire 1 at a time ( sunspot hot).
Autocannons crap, SRM if hit reg is good, streaks all over the place. Leaves missiles, lasers, and guass.

Edited by SaltBeef, 01 April 2015 - 09:50 PM.

[Averen]

SaltBeef, on 01 April 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

What else they got, clan guass, clan LPL ( lava hot) , med lasers ( firewalking ), CERPPC if you fire 1 at a time ( sunspot hot).

Lets take a look:

ML - 0.8 heat per damage
ERML - 0.86 heat per damage
LPL - 0.64
CLPL - 0.77
SL - 0.66
ERSL - 0.6
LL - 0.77
ERLL - 0.88
CERLL - 0.90

That's some real sunspot firewalking. Then think about how slotmechanics/weapon weight per dmg/XL works, and a clanner will usually be able to equip up to 50% more DHS. While the longer burntime is indeed less efficient, it makes it actually easier to manage the heat.

Might be easy to forget, but yeah, IS Laser are that weak and hot. Their only lasermechs heavily rely on quirks, and even that is pretty rare. Not to mention they are still heavily outranged, even if they can deal with the heat. STK-4N is a very, very rare exception, probably the most powerful quirk-combination in the whole game.

Edited by Averen, 01 April 2015 - 10:29 PM.

[GroxGlitch]

Averen, on 01 April 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

[POST]

Looking IS vs C lasers, in a vacuum, purely in regards to heat per damage seems like a very narrow way to consider balance. Let me point out, most (not all) IS chassi have some degree of reduction in energy weapon heat - this needs to be considered if one is going to look at differences between the two. Entirely ignoring quirks for the purposes of balance math gives the IS a ghost bonus.

That longer burn time also means far less damage is done if you're going to prioritize survival. If I'm trading with something I don't have the luxury of giving it a full beam duration worth of facetime, which means twisting out early. This costs damage while the heat still counts against me. This is virtually impossible to measure mathematically as it is insanely variable, but it should factor in to a degree.

IS lasers weak and hot? Are you serious? I'll give you outranged, maybe, except for all of the IS chassis that can carry ERLLs with ranges greater than cERLLs, but that's one weapon. Calling IS lasers weak and hot is a bit extreme; by that logic, since cLasers are even hotter, what does that make them?

Got Ravens, Firestarters, Stalkers, Thunderbolts, and Hunchbacks (just off the top of my head) that would like a word with you.

[Averen]

GroxGlitch, on 01 April 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

Looking IS vs C lasers, in a vacuum, purely in regards to heat per damage seems like a very narrow way to consider balance. Let me point out, most (not all) IS chassi have some degree of reduction in energy weapon heat - this needs to be considered if one is going to look at differences between the two. Entirely ignoring quirks for the purposes of balance math gives the IS a ghost bonus.

Right, that's the excuse we heard a million times. Tbh, that sounds pretty much like 'It wins by math, it's the strongest mech of it's class by a country mile, but that's just misleading'. Refering to the ghost heat is even more pointless. Compare 6ERML (414m, remember?) with 3ISLL, there you have your 'ghost bonus'. Clan wins. Using less than half the tonnage an IS mech needs. LPL have the same unquirked range like ERLL. 26 to 27 damage. Only a quirked number of ERLLs wins for IS, but the clan mech still will be a lot more versatile thanks to his XL, DHS and Speed-advantage. He can actually sustain the insane heat for a while. Put your mobility to actual use and win.

Quote

That longer burn time also means far less damage is done if you're going to prioritize survival. If I'm trading with something I don't have the luxury of giving it a full beam duration worth of facetime, which means twisting out early. This costs damage while the heat still counts against me. This is virtually impossible to measure mathematically as it is insanely variable, but it should factor in to a degree.

My Mad Cat has 18SRM, and still manages to boat 6ERML. That is 42 damage on 414m. Even that will outtrade most IS-mechs pretty easily on more than 400m. The lasercat has 68dmg. And a cat has superior mobility, so they are much better at using cover.

Quote

IS lasers weak and hot? Are you serious? I'll give you outranged, maybe, except for all of the IS chassis that can carry ERLLs with ranges greater than cERLLs, but that's one weapon. Calling IS lasers weak and hot is a bit extreme; by that logic, since cLasers are even hotter, what does that make them?

Got Ravens, Firestarters, Stalkers, Thunderbolts, and Hunchbacks (just off the top of my head) that would like a word with you.

What do all these mechs have in common? Hefty quirks. The stalker has the best quirk-combo in the game. Your firestarter only survives this long because of his broken hitboxes/hit detection. The Raven is a light. The Hunchback and Thunderbolts are pathetically short ranged compared to CLPL/CERML.

And in context? A stormcrow beats all, aside from the stalker, when trading at range. It should actually have a chance against the stalker at 800m. The Crow basically wins by default when it actually moves and abuses the stalkers lack of torso twist.

Edited by Averen, 01 April 2015 - 11:20 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Ultimatum X, on 01 April 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Discuss.

bad base to talk with Russ, not really showing him true comparison. the IS STD is already a tradeoff, isn't it? otherwise explain me how clanners can have a mech surviving both ST loss. or how about changeable Xl's which the clanners don't have? tradeoff to go 150kph instead of crappy stockspeed?

Wow I hope russ can smell this biased suggestion. IS skews a lot more with the possibilities they have.


The problem is again chassis,

IS XL in atlas? bad idea.
STD in atlas, good idea.
clan XL (if it had to be stock) in atlas, would be a good tradeoff, more firepower, less survivability. But clan XL would be very appealing

Surely here we can talk about how clan XL's are on a big advantage.

But the other side of the table:

lights: Stock clan XL vs changaebale max rating IS XL's that go up to 150kph? Thats a giant advantge on IS side. the only fats light the Clanners have is the MLX, and its crappy because of the other clan construction rules and crappy ahrdpoints.

I do not think we will reach better balance by balancing engines to each other. Because mechs differ too much . If oyu buff IS XL's the IS lights where most are already invincible will profite way too much compared to heavies or assaults on IS side. This is not creating more balance. And nerfing the clanners is the same, becaue their crappy engined lights will suffer a laod more, whle they are not even the problematic chasssis that require nerfs.

Why not giving the IS XLa heavy nerf change? like 50% speed?
So lets imagine IS XL' could survive an ST loss but gets a huge penalty of 50% speed.

That way on an atlas, the speedloss is big, but the atlas still has firepower and lots of hitpoints, given he torsotwisted somewhat proper.

On the other side, the overengined light mechs will once they lose a ST now not die anymore but will get downscaled in speed to a degree where they can not rely on their speed as playtactic anymore.

Pjwned, on 01 April 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

That doesn't change my response and it's not much of a counter either when you can look at pretty much every pro & con that clan mechs have and see that it's balanced by something else except in the case of clan XL engines.

So you want to tell me the stock adder or KFX clan Xl is superior to the max ratng of a FS9 or Commando? really?
If so, her take my stock engine adder size engine and give me your IS XL 295? you really think in this comparison, the clan XL is a positive exception? It's not, its very situational because the clan XL is also bound to its stock size. if you want true engine balance, you would have to open clanners the ability to also go STD or engine size swapping. Anything else is just a biased lie.

KharnZor, on 01 April 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

Its not gimping. Its a consequence of being in a clan mech.
Like how having an IS xl means you explode if you lose that side torso, doesn't matter if its a good or bad build you just die.
However i do believe the bad clan mechs need to have something done to improve them, like that stupid flamer on the adder and other such improvements like being able to equip endo etc etc

good, then remove all quirks form is, because this is a consequence of being IS mech.
Hurr durr. you don't really believe that this 1t fixed flamers does anyhow improve the adder to something more proper?

it's funny how clanners shoudl always deal with their downsides, but the Is is fine with all the buffs they got. Thats a really cheap way to argue and is not going to improve the game and its balance.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 April 2015 - 12:42 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 02 April 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Wow I hope russ can smell this biased suggestion. IS skews a lot more with the possibilities they have.

Its biased?
Isn't it exactly what Gyrok suggested at the very beginning of this journey?

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

Instead of nerfing clans into oblivion (shades of the victor nerf back in the day) and offering single digit quirks as a consolation prize...I have a suggestion, please hear me out.

I think that rather than piss off a large number of the people playing clans, why not bring in the LFEs

anyhow remove all IS weapons quirks - foremost the "heat generation" - because heat is on almost every Mech i have a joke already - hardly have problems to overheat even a ClanMech. (if i overheat - i have pounded enough damage that would ashame any IS Assault)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 April 2015 - 12:54 AM.

[Averen]

Btw, something i just noticed: Buffing the IS might be a lot worse than nerfing clans. Power creep is already a realy issue in this game, you can die at an insane speed. Adding LFEs would just exacerbate that issue.

Edited by Averen, 02 April 2015 - 01:00 AM.

[Gyrok]

Averen, on 01 April 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

Right, that's the excuse we heard a million times. Tbh, that sounds pretty much like 'It wins by math, it's the strongest mech of it's class by a country mile, but that's just misleading'. Refering to the ghost heat is even more pointless. Compare 6ERML (414m, remember?) with 3ISLL, there you have your 'ghost bonus'. Clan wins. Using less than half the tonnage an IS mech needs. LPL have the same unquirked range like ERLL. 26 to 27 damage. Only a quirked number of ERLLs wins for IS, but the clan mech still will be a lot more versatile thanks to his XL, DHS and Speed-advantage. He can actually sustain the insane heat for a while. Put your mobility to actual use and win.



My Mad Cat has 18SRM, and still manages to boat 6ERML. That is 42 damage on 414m. Even that will outtrade most IS-mechs pretty easily on more than 400m. The lasercat has 68dmg. And a cat has superior mobility, so they are much better at using cover.



What do all these mechs have in common? Hefty quirks. The stalker has the best quirk-combo in the game. Your firestarter only survives this long because of his broken hitboxes/hit detection. The Raven is a light. The Hunchback and Thunderbolts are pathetically short ranged compared to CLPL/CERML.

And in context? A stormcrow beats all, aside from the stalker, when trading at range. It should actually have a chance against the stalker at 800m. The Crow basically wins by default when it actually moves and abuses the stalkers lack of torso twist.

Except the 6 ERML will generate 36 heat for a 42 alpha @ 446m with range 5

Meanwhile, you have 6LL Stalkers that generate 1.8 (37.8 total) more heat for 12 (54 total) more damage at 139m greater range, with better overall heat efficiency.

In other words, maybe actually look at the quirks man...

EDIT: Also, Laser Cat? What? The Laser vomit TW? You mean the 54 alpha TW build that runs at 1.18 heat efficiency with no more crit slots left for DHS? That one? The one that has lower sustained DPS than many TDR builds?

Also, the SRM boat TWs would never boat so many lasers, they would run ASRM24 + 4 ERMLs and lots of ammo + DHS. SRM TWs focus on SRMs because the damage to heat ratio is significantly better on SRMs. That being said, Clan SRMs are still inferior to IS SRMs categorically.

Karl Streiger, on 02 April 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

Its biased?
Isn't it exactly what Gyrok suggested at the very beginning of this journey?



anyhow remove all IS weapons quirks - foremost the "heat generation" - because heat is on almost every Mech i have a joke already - hardly have problems to overheat even a ClanMech. (if i overheat - i have pounded enough damage that would ashame any IS Assault)

In your arctic sea temperature quirked IS mechs...? Sure...lol, you probably never do overheat.

Edited by Gyrok, 02 April 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

In your arctic sea temperature quirked IS mechs...? Sure...lol, you probably never do overheat.

haha funny - not. Non of my Mechs i used last time hat a heat gen quirk

and even the clan mechs are not really hot not in a mixed config using Ultra10s, LBXs, SRMs, Lasers, Peps, Gauss - the full program - even had a DireWolf that would have needed 7 weapon groups - this is the real tradegy - those Mechs hard to pilot are not the most effective.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 April 2015 - 05:55 AM.

[Gyrok]

Karl Streiger, on 02 April 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

haha funny - not. Non of my Mechs i used last time hat a heat gen quirk

and even the clan mechs are not really hot not in a mixed config using Ultra10s, LBXs, SRMs, Lasers, Peps, Gauss - the full program - even had a DireWolf that would have needed 7 weapon groups

So, you are just using inferior weapons that run cooler by nature because they are terrible to begin with. I see now...

If you are running Clan ballistics, and have less than 4 guns on a mech, you are doing it wrong. ERPPCs are terribad on clan mechs, SRMs are very *blah*, Streaks are *blah* too, Gauss is the same as IS, nothing amazing there, and the only energy worth considering large scale boating is for brawling (ERSL/SPL) meaning your engagement range is greatly limited.

[Cementi]

I personally do not like this idea.....but I think it would be met with the minimum amount of whine. Give IS access to clan XL engines and give Clans the ability to change engine sizes as well as use standard engines. Then rebalance quirks accordingly.

I personally think the quirks need a rebalance anyway. Mech chassis should only have defensive quirks to shore up weak points on mechs like the hunchbacks hunch and the dragon's nose stuff like that. Offensive quirks should come from a revamped skill tree giving the players the choice as to what weapons they think should be on the mech, not what some small inner circle thinks should be on.

Edited by Cementi, 02 April 2015 - 06:06 AM.