238 replies to this topic

[MATRAKA14]

[102_devill]

This is just incompetent.
This game has no real content other than mechs and their models. So making compromises with the models is below any standard in this niche of the gaming industry.

[TELEFORCE]

I do like the way the Cataphract looks with the dynamic weapon models, though I feel the PPC barrels can be a little shorter.

The Jagermech, however, looks nothing like any of the BattleTech source material or the concept art for MWO. I think it's a major step backwards and a change definitely needs to be made. The guns need to be made larger.

I know someone posted a BattleTech illustration of a Jagermech III earlier in this thread, which is, for all intents and purposes, different from the Jagermech. The Jagermech really needs those longer weapon barrels back.

[Tennex]

YaKillinMeSmalls, on 17 March 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

I hate to break it to y'all, but the Jagermech's arms are supposed to be short:



The only reason they gave the Jagermech long barrels is to make it more aesthetically like the 'mech it is replacing in usage, the Rifleman.


Now, skinny stick barrels are another matter.

you were able to get that effect with the AC20

RokerSaMoravu, on 18 March 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

This is just incompetent.
This game has no real content other than mechs and their models. So making compromises with the models is below any standard in this niche of the gaming industry.

Its their biggest selling point and their biggest cash cow

they are playing with fire

[zagibu]

Tennex, on 18 March 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Its their biggest selling point and their biggest cash cow

they are playing with fire

Indeed. What else is there besides mechs?

[Spheroid]

I would not consider that 1st Davion Guards illustration proof of anything. No standard rules variant allows a 250 engine, although Magna does produce one.

[Lulz Kev]

I bought MC to buy a Jager during the sale.

Glad I didn't.

[Tennex]

DTF Kev, on 19 March 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

I bought MC to buy a Jager during the sale.

Glad I didn't.

talk with your wallet

[badaa]

its not the length its the girth you need

[Briareus Hekatonkheir]

Vassago Rain, on 17 March 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

What a beautiful creature.

What in the unholy name of @ss is this Fu**ness?

[Alex Morgaine]

Using an xl100 that's what.

[Alex Morgaine]

Just noticed the mismatched auto cannon barrels xD
It beautiful, sums up the general thought on the whole dynamic hardpoint project's results. It's glorious.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

I honest to God thought for sure people were making a massive exaggerated joke thread with photoshopped Jagers.

Laff. Out. Loud. Whyyyyyyy? Was the length and girth of the cannons making the other mechs feel inadequate? I joke, but seriously? Don't rip out nostalgia or immersion of a game. Especially on an IP that is dependent on it. You already have a bunch of screens that don't work in the cockpit, why make things worse.

If you look to the RIGHT of your screen as you're posting you see a Stalker firing missiles, and to the left of it a Jager doing its dakka thing with its original arms. Enjoy it.

[Strum Wealh]

stjobe, on 17 March 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

FFS, PGI.

Stop destroying the beautiful 'mechs with your ridiculously bad lego-style "dynamic geometry"!

I just had a look at my Firebrand (2xAC/5, 2xLL) - it looks like an AMPUTEE!

LOOK AT IT!



Bloody hell, this was the concept art:



BIG, LONG BARRELS. Not tiny, tiny nubs and sticks.

NOT. TINY. NUBS. AND. STICKS!

JackAttack5, on 17 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

That comparison is painful. The jager already had ballistic mounts that reflected the loadout and they looked good, this is a bizarre re-cancering. It's is almost too incompetant, I want to assume it's spiteful instead.

Rather than spite, it seems like a nod to BT canon.

Recall, Nebfer made a listing of BattleTech weapon calibers by class some time ago.

Nebfer, on 08 August 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Parden the spelling, but this is from my raw files... (txt files)

 
 
================================
Machineguns
================================
20mm Gatling			  = 20mm (TRO 3039) skorpion tank entry
M100					  = 12.7mm (leithal hearitage) -Phawk
Johnston minigun		  = 20mm (temptation by war) Ranger VV1 -discribed as caseless (ch 14)
Scattergun				= 20mm (temptation by war) DI Schmitt
22mm Gatling			  = 22mm (TRO 3075) JES 1 entry
================================
Class 2 Autocannons
================================
Whirlwind-L			   = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L			   = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1
SarLon					= 30mm (TRO 3026) Warrior VTOL
Thor RAC-2				= 40mm (TRO 3058) Warrior VTOL
Mydron Model D-rf (Ultra) = 20mm (Imminent Crisis) Jagermech III  
Mydron Model D			= 30mm (Threads of ambition) Jagermech
Defiance Shredder LBX	 = 20mm (Fortress republic) -Catapult
================================
Class 5 Autocannons
================================
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 50mm (Binding force) -cataphract
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Cataphract
GM Whirlwind		  = 120mm (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -Marauder
GM Whirlwind		  = 50mm (killing field) -Marauder
Armstrong J11		 = 80mm or 90mm (Thunder ridge) -Shawdow Hawk
Imperator-A		   = 80mm (Price of Glory) -Riflemen
Whirlwind			 = 60mm (Price of glory) -Wolverine
Whirlwind			 = 90mm (Wolves on the border) -Wolverine
Imperator Ultra AC-5  = 80mm (Storms of fate) -Vulcan & Daikyu
Armstrong AC-5		= 50mm (Double blind) -Clint
Armstrong AC-5		= 105mm (TRO 3075) -Merkava Hvy Tank
Pontiac Light		 = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Striker mech
Snake killer LAC5	 = 60mm (Battlecorps) -Shadowhawk-9D
Mydron Model RC RAC5  = 50mm (A call to arms & fortress republic) -Legionnaire & Rifleman
Mydron Tornado  RAC5  = 50mm (By Temptations and By War) -DI Schmitt
Defiance type J AC-5  = 75mm (Heir to the dragon) -Zeus 6S
================================
Class 10 Autocannons
================================
Luxor-D				= 80mm (Price of glory, Ghost of winter) -Centuien
Mydron Excel UAC	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Enforcer
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Dragon Fire
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Illusions of victory)  -Cataphract
Defiance Disintegrator?= 100mm (end game) -Banshee
Mydron Model B		 = 80mm (Flash point) -Bushwacker
Federated AC-10		= 80mm (Flash point) -Enforcer
Imperator Code Red	 = 100mm (Flashpoint) -Challenger MBT
KaliYama			   = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Orion
Imperator Code Red	 = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Emperor
Imperator-B			= 80mm (Warrior en Guard) Urbanmech (implyed to be similer in caliber as the Riflemen)
================================
Class 20 Autocannons
================================
Death Giver				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
Pontiac 100				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Victor
Armstrong				  = 120mm (binding force) -Von Luckner MBT
Chemjet					= 185mm (TRO 3026) -Demolisher I tank
Crusher SH				 = 150mm (TRO 3026) -Hetzer Assault gun (or 120mm Threads of ambition)
Defiance Thunder Ultra	 = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Blitzkrig
Defiance Disintegrator LBX = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Barghest -Illusions of victory & The Dying time as well
Kali Yama Big Bore		 = 120mm (Threads of ambition) -Thunder
Tomodzuru				  = 180mm (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback
Luxuor Devastator		  = 120mm (Storms of fate) -Typhoon UAV
Death Giver				= 120mm (Storms of Fate) -King Crab

================================
Unknown type
================================
Jagermech "500mm" AC (Double blind) -most likely a typo
Mackie 5S AC-5 = 110mm (Birth of a King)
Jagermech 7F RAC-5 = 80mm
Templar omni, Grayson config AC-5 = 40mm (Imminent Crisis)
Blackjack omni LBX-10 = 80mm

Clan
Type 9 UAC 10 = 75mm
Type 10 UAC 20 = 120mm
Type 20 UAC 20 = 200mm
Type 25 UAC 2 = 50mm
Type 31 UAC 5 = 40mm
Type Kov LBX-10 = 75 or 150mm (same book two diffrent vehicles)
Type Covr-X 40mm

Wolves on the border LRMs = 75mm catapult ch 19
Gauss rifle = 10cm -starlord ch 2
infantry HMG "spanner" 15mm (not sure where this one is from)
Shrapnel mentions HE shells, a gray death book also mentions HE rounds...
blood legacy, unknown vtol, door mounted rotary 12.7mm MG
The Dying time, jeep mg = 13mm 43 gram -recount of thunder rift (1500 RPM)
temptation by war, ryoken II MGs = 20mm (likely AC-2s, as I do not think it has MGs)
patriots stand, generic gun trucks, 20mm "Gatling" MGs
flight of the falcon, mining mech mod, twin 50 cal MGs
Their are a few more but this is most of what I found, as one can see their is a few contradictions.

Notice that most MGs are in the ~20mm range, most Class-2 ACs (AC/2, UAC/2, etc) are in the 30mm to 40mm range, most Class-5 ACs (AC/5, UAC/5, etc) are in the 50mm to 80mm range, most Class-10 ACs (AC/10, UAC/10, etc) are in the 80mm to 100mm range, and most Class-20 ACs (AC/20, UAC/20, etc) are in the 120mm to 200mm range.
The novel Star Lord describes the Gauss Rifle as having a 10cm (100mm) bore, while the novel Blood Legacy describes the Gauss Rifle as having a 30cm (300mm) bore.

In other words:
Most BT/MW MG bullets are ~20mm (~0.79 inches) in diameter.
Most BT/MW Class-2 AC shells are 30mm (1.18 inches) to 40mm (1.57 inches) in diameter.
Most BT/MW Class-5 AC shells are 50mm (1.97 inches) to 80mm (3.15 inches) in diameter.
Most BT/MW Class-10 AC shells are 80mm (3.15 inches) to 100mm (3.94 inches) in diameter.
Most BT/MW Class-20 AC shells are 120mm (4.72 inches) to 200mm (7.87 inches) in diameter.
Most BT/MW Gauss Rifle slugs are 100mm (3.94 inches) to 300mm (11.81 inches) in diameter.

In other words, the largest known bore sizes for BT/MW ballistic weapons are less than one foot in diameter (and, in many cases, less than five inches in diameter).

This is what a 120mm round (the smaller side of AC/20s, and bigger than the other AC classes) looks like:

(The black part is what actually comes out of the barrel of the weapon.)

Now, consider the size of the 'Mechs relative to the bore sizes of the weapons...

[stjobe]

Strum Wealh, on 20 March 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

-snip-

Bore size is one thing, and I'm not disputing the numbers you quote.

But not a lot of 'mechs in lore had unprotected barrels, most had rather thick armour to protect them against weapons fire and to make them usable in melee.

In short, the calibre of the gun doesn't necessarily have to be reflected in the outer diameter of the barrel.

[Almond Brown]

zagibu, on 18 March 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

Indeed. What else is there besides mechs?

How about all all those players who would whine, leak tears, QQ and ream PGI another one if the arms on their Mechs could be torn asunder from 800m becasue they were to "F&*^#" big. Maybe... lol

[Strum Wealh]

stjobe, on 20 March 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

Bore size is one thing, and I'm not disputing the numbers you quote.

But not a lot of 'mechs in lore had unprotected barrels, most had rather thick armour to protect them against weapons fire and to make them usable in melee.

In short, the calibre of the gun doesn't necessarily have to be reflected in the outer diameter of the barrel.

From a practical standpoint (e.g. in-universe manufacturing concerns) though, there would generally be some correlation between the bore (inner diameter) and the outer diameter (e.g. the outer diameter of the barrel for a 120mm weapon is likely going to be larger than that of a 50mm weapon), but there would still be some limit (e.g. a 200mm weapon isn't likely, IMO, to have an outside diameter at the barrel of more than a half-meter or so (which would mean a barrel thickness of 150mm)).

There would also be some correlation between the bore size and the barrel length.

• "The length of the barrel (especially for larger guns) is often quoted in calibers. The effective length of the barrel (from breech to muzzle) is divided by the barrel diameter to give a dimensionless quantity."
  
• "Early gun barrels were short and thick, typically no more than 26 calibers, as the gunpowder propellant they used burned very quickly and violently, and hence its acceleration time was short."
  
• "The practical effect of long barrels for modern guns is that the projectile spends more time in the barrel before it exits, and hence more time is available for expanding gas from the controlled burning of the propellant charge to smoothly accelerate the projectile, bringing about a higher velocity without placing undue strain on the gun."
  
• "Today 60- to 70-caliber barrels are not uncommon, but the latest technology has allowed shorter barrels of 55 calibers to attain muzzle velocities of 5,700 feet per second (1,700 m/s), as with the Rheinmetall 120 mm tank gun."

Given the low (sub-kilometer) effective ranges & (in MWO) low muzzle velocities, it is unlikely that BT/MW ACs would have (or need) particularly high-caliber (e.g. long relative to bore size) barrels.

And that still leaves us with barrels not the sizes of some of those in the concept art (some of which make AC/5s and AC/10s look like they're in the 500mm (50cm, or 19.69 inches) or greater range of bore sizes).

[stjobe]

Strum Wealh, on 20 March 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

From a practical standpoint (e.g. in-universe manufacturing concerns) though, there would generally be some correlation between the bore (inner diameter) and the outer diameter (e.g. the outer diameter of the barrel for a 120mm weapon is likely going to be larger than that of a 50mm weapon), but there would still be some limit (e.g. a 200mm weapon isn't likely, IMO, to have an outside diameter at the barrel of more than a half-meter or so (which would mean a barrel thickness of 150mm)).

For real-world walking robotic fighting vehicles, I'd agree.

Rule of Cool says "guns should look big" though.

And in a scifi game about walking robotic fighting machines, Rule of Cool takes Real-World out in the back-alley and beats the everliving snot out of it. With a Ridiculously Big Stick.

Strum Wealh, on 20 March 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

Given the low (sub-kilometer) effective ranges & (in MWO) low muzzle velocities, it is unlikely that BT/MW ACs would have (or need) particularly high-caliber (e.g. long relative to bore size) barrels.

The limited range of BT weaponry has more to do with ECM saturation and a fast-moving battlefield than the bench performance of the guns. If you wanted to, you could use the optional rules for extreme range and your lasers would only be range-limited by terrain and the curvature of the planet you fought on.

Remember, the effective range represents a lot of things, including
* the problem of the 'mech aiming several independently articulated weapons mounted on a moving (walking, running, or jumping) platform
* against a moving target
* on a battlefield saturated with ECM and ECCM of all sorts (not only Guardian and Angel).

Edited by stjobe, 20 March 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[Tennex]

YaKillinMeSmalls, on 17 March 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

I hate to break it to y'all, but the Jagermech's arms are supposed to be short:



The only reason they gave the Jagermech long barrels is to make it more aesthetically like the 'mech it is replacing in usage, the Rifleman.


Now, skinny stick barrels are another matter.

those look kind of like lasers

[Strum Wealh]

stjobe, on 20 March 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

For real-world walking robotic fighting vehicles, I'd agree.

Rule of Cool says "guns should look big" though.

And in a scifi game about walking robotic fighting machines, Rule of Cool takes Real-World out in the back-alley and beats the everliving snot out of it. With a Ridiculously Big Stick.

They're not necessarily mutually-exclusive - and, for some people, more "guns looking more realistic, in terms of both mechanical detail and scale" is much more "cool" than "guns being absurdly out-of-scale".

Thus, why so many people like "Real Robot" more than "Super Robot" (even though a lot of people feel the opposite way), and why so many people don't care for the likes of WH40K (again, even though a number of people feel the opposite way).

----------

stjobe, on 20 March 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

The limited range of BT weaponry has more to do with ECM saturation and a fast-moving battlefield than the bench performance of the guns. If you wanted to, you could use the optional rules for extreme range and your lasers would only be range-limited by terrain and the curvature of the planet you fought on.

Remember, the effective range represents a lot of things, including
* the problem of the 'mech aiming several independently articulated weapons mounted on a moving (walking, running, or jumping) platform
* against a moving target
* on a battlefield saturated with ECM and ECCM of all sorts (not only Guardian and Angel).

The Extreme Range rules (and the LOS Range rules) also produce effects based on inherent characteristics of the weapon:

• For Extreme Range, "subtract 1 point of damage from any Direct-Fire Energy weapon or any weapon with the word “Gauss” in its name (except HAGs)." The energy weapon effect ostensibly represents the effects of blooming and atmospheric beam absorption. The Gauss weapon effect ostensibly represents the loss of KE/momentum as a result of loss of velocity.
  
• For Extreme Range, "multiply the Damage Value of any Direct-Fire Ballistic (but not Gauss) weapons by .75 (rounding down)." Like the Gauss weapon effect, this ostensibly represents the loss of KE/momentum as a result of loss of velocity.
  
• For Extreme Range, "for any weapon that rolls on the Cluster Hits Table [e.g. LB-X cluster rounds & missile launchers], apply a -2 modifier to the die roll result when rolling on the Cluster Hits Table". This ostensibly represents the increasing spread of the LB-X cluster rounds over distance & the increased spread of missiles from the launchers resulting in fewer munitions striking a particular area.
  
• "Any Direct-Fire Ballistic or Missile weapon with a Long range of less than 13 hexes cannot make use of LOS range."
  
• "Any Direct-Fire Energy or Pulse weapon with a Long range of less than 7 hexes cannot make use of LOS Range."
  
• For LOS Range, "divide the Damage Value of any Direct-Fire Ballistic (but not Gauss) weapons by 2, rounding down".
  
• For LOS Range, "multiply the Damage Value of any Direct-Fire Energy weapon, or any weapon with the word 'Gauss' in its name (except HAGs), by .75 (rounding down)".
  
• For LOS Range, "for any weapon that rolls on the Cluster Hits Table, apply a -3 modifier to the die roll result when rolling on the Cluster Hits Table".

The Small Laser, Small Pulse Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, Machine Gun, AC/5, AC/10, AC/20, LB 10-X, SRMs, and Streak SRMs cannot make use of LOS Range.

While targeting limitations & the presence of ambient EWar systems would have an effect, the inherent characteristics and properties of the weapons themselves are also represented.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 20 March 2015 - 01:17 PM.