124 replies to this topic

[darkkterror]

Zoid, on 18 March 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

You're so mired in your thinking that you don't realize the SCR being so much better than the clan lights means something is wrong with the SCR.

Or it could mean that Clan lights suck...

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the SCR is probably OP and needs to be nerfed in some way, but I'm also saying that current Clan light mechs suck regardless.

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

Well....when I did my tests, half the team did consistently fail to get 200 damage.

200 is a number anyone should be able to get in the PUG LIFE. Yet, of course, they didn't.

Clams were only about 30% terribad, as opposed to a tad over 50%.

Is the PUG LIFE really a place to do meaningful testing?

1. When you got 2x more durable XL, you tend to last longer and do more damage. Not to mention, most of the popular Clan mechs such as the Whale, the Timbie, and the Crow have symmetrical hardpoints that allow them to continue shooting after 1 side is cored--resulting in more consistent performance.

2. Clans have plenty of weapons that do more DPS than IS but are balanced by burn duration. For example, Clan lasers and CUACs. Which can result in Clanner having overall higher DPS than IS, but that does not mean the Clanners managed to keep the shots in the same spot. Kinda like the difference between my dakka Whale and my brawler Atlas--Whale does way more damage but the Atlas can kill with more efficiency.

Is the DAMAGE DONE really the choice metric for a meaningful testing?

Edited by El Bandito, 18 March 2015 - 06:05 PM.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 18 March 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

1. When you got 2x more durable XL, you tend to last longer and do more damage. Not to mention, most of the popular Clan mechs such as the Whale, the Timbie, and the Crow have symmetrical hardpoints that allow them to continue shooting after 1 side is cored.

2. Clans have plenty of weapons that do more DPS than IS but are balanced by burn duration. For example, Clan lasers and CUACs. Just cause those Clanners do more damage than IS pilots, that does not mean they managed to keep the shots at the same spot.


Is the DAMAGE DONE really the choice metric for a meaningful testing?

Seeing as 200 damage is a pitifully small number, yes.

Yes, if they can't get that number, they have no purpose in testing balance.

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

Seeing as 200 damage is a pitifully small number, yes.

Yes, if they can't get that number, they have no purpose in testing balance.

I saw Odwalla doing less than 50 damage in an IS mech before going down. Clearly he is not suited for testing, amirite? Fact is, everyone has bad games, especially in an XL mech. It is just Clan mechs make those bad games more forgiving.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 March 2015 - 06:10 PM.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 18 March 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

I saw Odwalla doing less than 50 damage in an IS mech before going down. Clearly he is not suited for testing, amirite? Fact is, everyone has bad games, especially in an XL mech. It is just Clan mechs make those bad games more forgiving.

Is he one of the people who failed to get 200 damage in over half of their matches?

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

Is he one of the people who failed to get 200 damage in over half of their matches?

And you managed to find a way track people who fail to get over 200 damage over half their matches?

[Johnny Z]

I propose a sweeping nerf of legendary proportions to the clan mechs and let their pilots complain on the forums until their mechs are equal to Inner Sphere! Sounds like a healthy change for these forums!

Sounds entertaining if nothing else.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 18 March 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

And you managed to find a way track people who fail to get over 200 damage over half their matches?

It was a reoccurring theme.


What type of results would you expect with 24 competent players?

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

It was a reoccurring theme.


What type of results would you expect with 24 competent players?

I expect them to perform the way they perform. I never put too much stock on re-occuring experience in pug games.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 March 2015 - 06:32 PM.

[Averen]

Red1769, on 18 March 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Idk about the Hellbringer...I think it's actually good where it's at. Agreed on the No-Va...can't be completely fixed...but with some tinkering for heat gen quirks and maybe also some JJ quirks, it might just edge out to being equal to the Cent., maybe provide the Enforcer some competition.

Not really sure on the IS diversity...I mean, there are one or two mechs I never see *looks at the Vindicator*. Otherwise I see a good mix in all weight classes on the IS side. Aside from the very occasional Myth Lynx, I just don't see Gargles and Ice Ferrets. Maybe it's just where I'm at in the Elo rack for my assaults, since I haven't played my Shawks in forever.

Hellbringer has its advantage by using ECM, CERM+ClanDHS and a well sized clan XL. It's at least on the level of the strongest IS mechs plus being a bit faster and ranging a bit further than most.
E.g. take CERM, and compare how much the tdr-5ss profited by it's comparatively pathetic range quirk.

For diversity, just look at the mediocre IS mechs like orions or cataphracts. They are outgunned, outrun and outranged. At this point, mediocre means weak, because armor combined with acceptable speed doesn't bring you very far. Not just because of Clans, but the combination of midrange firepower and speed without disadvantages makes it very easy to pick them apart.
Only specialised builds won't put you to much back. And if the MM decides to give your team a bunch of IS-mechs, while the opponent gets 4 timbers? Bad luck, you're screwed.

To compete, you either need the weapon positions of a jagermech, the insane durability (+high weaponry) of a stalker, or the ridiculous quirks of a thunderbolt to get anywhere. Or ofc the near op-ness of the crabs UAC-arrays. And even then the unholy four will beat any mech of it's class.

Edited by Averen, 19 March 2015 - 07:13 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Yeah if your Hellbringer is losing to a Thunderbolt you are BAD.

[KraftySOT]

Really if you cant dodge 1400 speed PPC bolts, youre also bad.

Its easy to forget that over 75% of our community are terrible players and just stand there pressing the shoot things button.

Of course those guys think whatever they drive is bad and whatever killed them is awesome. When you have a quirk that appears powerful, you get people going with that mech.

Of course no one remembers the 20 Thunderbolts that died flaming horrible deaths and didnt kill you, you just remember that one good pilot who tagged you so much it seemed like he was cheating, so you come here, and whine about balance.

[Averen]

Ozealot, on 19 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

LMAO. Yeah, 50% range quirk is indeed pathetic. JFYI I pick your Hellbringer apart anyday with a TDR-5SS. Imagin a duel starting at optimal range of CERMLs, open space no cover. I would probably loose an arm or two but leave you standing on one leg without arms only your no hardpoint sidetorso being left and make a screenshot of your chat rant.

Compared to a 400m (or 414) cerml glee about the quirked 330m is indeed pathetic, mind that's like one of the IS strongest brawlers. Also, a good hellbringer pilot would just try to leg the thunderbolt.

Using something like this I can start firing at 600m and laught about that silly thunderwub:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5c0db42f0b3671d
Or this for more efficiency:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...feb0192fad10e0f

Really, the wub would be basically with no armor left on one leg. And that's the extra opening salvo the hellbringer gets for his range.

Edited by Averen, 19 March 2015 - 07:28 AM.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 18 March 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

1. When you got 2x more durable XL, you tend to last longer and do more damage. Not to mention, most of the popular Clan mechs such as the Whale, the Timbie, and the Crow have symmetrical hardpoints that allow them to continue shooting after 1 side is cored--resulting in more consistent performance.

2. Clans have plenty of weapons that do more DPS than IS but are balanced by burn duration. For example, Clan lasers and CUACs. Which can result in Clanner having overall higher DPS than IS, but that does not mean the Clanners managed to keep the shots in the same spot. Kinda like the difference between my dakka Whale and my brawler Atlas--Whale does way more damage but the Atlas can kill with more efficiency.

Is the DAMAGE DONE really the choice metric for a meaningful testing?

name me the clanlight that has mroe dps than a FS9

the clan XL is pointless when you cna not get on significant speed.

Averen, on 19 March 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

Compared to a 400m (or 414) cerml glee about the quirked 330m is indeed pathetic, mind that's like one of the IS strongest brawlers. Also, a good hellbringer pilot would just try to leg the thunderbolt.

Using something like this I can start firing at 600m and laught about that silly thunderwub:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5c0db42f0b3671d
Or this for more efficiency:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...feb0192fad10e0f

Really, the wub would be basically with no armor left on one leg. And that's the extra opening salvo the hellbringer gets for his range.

GG you legged a thunderbolt aftr 2 volleys being totally at heatcap, and then? until you can destroy a second leg you are either death by CT, or disarmed

Can you both make this duel? can you record it please?

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 March 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[Tuefel Hunden]

Zoid, on 18 March 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

This is hilarious, you are describing exactly what's OP about the clans, namely the SCR and TBR. The SCR moves like a light and has the firepower of a heavy, the TBR moves like a medium and has the firepower of an assault.

You're so mired in your thinking that you don't realize the SCR being so much better than the clan lights means something is wrong with the SCR. Clan lights aren't great but the simple fact that you don't need them because the Stormcrow and Timberwolf are so fast while packing major firepower should tell you something.


I'm not a fan of blanket nerfs for the clans either, but it's due to these two 'mechs. Until they get toned down into something reasonable, the clans are going to eat nerf after nerf.

What IS light moves at 106.9? And don't quote me stock speeds, because everyone improves the engine asap. The SCR moves like a fast medium, not a light.

The issue with Clan lights is the fact that the KFX and the ADR are more like pocket mediums than lights. Their agility is clearly less than what the community expects from a light.

Edited by Tuefel Hunden, 19 March 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[Tasker]

Uhhh. Clan mechs are bad. Stop nerf! Clan mechs clearly inferior to superior Kuritan technology!

Everyone know that only reason clan mech win in 64% of matches because Clan players just so much better across board!!!

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 18 March 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

1. When you got 2x more durable XL, you tend to last longer and do more damage. Not to mention, most of the popular Clan mechs such as the Whale, the Timbie, and the Crow have symmetrical hardpoints that allow them to continue shooting after 1 side is cored--resulting in more consistent performance.

2. Clans have plenty of weapons that do more DPS than IS but are balanced by burn duration. For example, Clan lasers and CUACs. Which can result in Clanner having overall higher DPS than IS, but that does not mean the Clanners managed to keep the shots in the same spot. Kinda like the difference between my dakka Whale and my brawler Atlas--Whale does way more damage but the Atlas can kill with more efficiency.

Is the DAMAGE DONE really the choice metric for a meaningful testing?

Actually damage per heat is where they are balanced and the IS tends to truly shine...

For example...IS ML is 5 damage for 4 heat, which is 80% heat to damage, meanwhile the CERML is 7 damage for 6 heat, or 40% more damage for 50% more heat, and 85.7 heat to damage ratio.

This is just one example.

[Sarlic]

Is everybody forgetting that Clanners rule by teamwork and advanced weaponary.

If one of those two is missing then the Clanners are nothing.

I think i have explained around 80%-90% of the matches. (Aside they mixed everything up now from both sides)

You are welcome.

[Red1769]

Averen, on 19 March 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

Hellbringer has its advantage by using ECM, CERM+ClanDHS and a well sized clan XL. It's at least on the level of the strongest IS mechs plus being a bit faster and ranging a bit further than most.
E.g. take CERM, and compare how much the tdr-5ss profited by it's comparatively pathetic range quirk.

For diversity, just look at the mediocre IS mechs like orions or cataphracts. They are outgunned, outrun and outranged. At this point, mediocre means weak, because armor combined with acceptable speed doesn't bring you very far. Not just because of Clans, but the combination of midrange firepower and speed without disadvantages makes it very easy to pick them apart.
Only specialised builds won't put you to much back. And if the MM decides to give your team a bunch of IS-mechs, while the opponent gets 4 timbers? Bad luck, you're screwed.

To compete, you either need the weapon positions of a jagermech, the insane durability (+high weaponry) of a stalker, or the ridiculous quirks of a thunderbolt to get anywhere. Or ofc the near op-ness of the crabs UAC-arrays. And even then the unholy four will beat any mech of it's class.

We'll agree to disagree to an extent. Agreed that the Hellbringer is certainly tier 2, potentially tier 1. As much as I hate power creep, the IS also just doesn't have a worthwhile heavy in this timeline, aside from the Maruader, but we all know that one isn't an option. The Black Knight is also an option, but is about the only one I can think of that's within timeline of 3052. ECM isn't that big of a deal to me, the ERML issue is approaching a weapon balance standpoint (it's a dang good gun agreed). I see the DHS as a non-issue due to higher heat energy weapons, so you need spend more tonnage to them. But as a whole, Clans have better lasers (despite higher heat and longer beam durations) and SRMs, with an honorable mention of gauss rifles, while IS have better LRMs (not saying much I know) and ballistics (aside from gauss).

Personally, I don't have a Hellbringer, so this is mostly observation, since I do see a fair number of them, almost as much as I see Timberwolves. I also have an issue with your terminology...mediocre doesn't mean weak...it means neither weak or strong...medium, average. No doubt that some IS mechs need work still, but there is also far more to choose from.

We have differing experiences...mine seem pretty 50-50 on which side wins, and I only PUG.

Tasker, on 19 March 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Uhhh. Clan mechs are bad. Stop nerf! Clan mechs clearly inferior to superior Kuritan technology!

Everyone know that only reason clan mech win in 64% of matches because Clan players just so much better across board!!!

Aside from four solid to extremely good clan mechs, yes, they are bad. And if my memory serves, Mr. Troll, the Elo difference, on average, was 100 points (whatever that means) in favor of the Clans. Whether that's a large enough difference or not is debatable. But the numbers worked out. It's also why, since the changes since then, there are some that want a new test. I would even bring my White Whale out just for it.

[Fate 6]

El Bandito, on 17 March 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

Are the so called "bad" Clan mechs (aside from the Lynx) really that bad? I see them frequently perform no less than IS mechs in the pug queue--especially the so called "Badder". In case of CW, it is more like the Holy Quadrinity is too good not to pick, rather than the rest are bad.

-Mist Lynx compares to the Spider, but Spider has better hitboxes and speed.
-Kit Fox compares to the Raven, but Raven has better hitboxes and speed and heat efficiency.
-Adder compares to nothing really, its hitboxes are bad and it doesn't do anything well except boat streaks. However, streak Adder vs Firestarter would likely go in the Firestarter's favor. Sniper Adder can never compare to the Raven.
-Ice Ferret compares pretty closely to the Cicada which isn't even a very good mech (and can mount ECM).
-Nova compares pretty closely to the Hunchback in terms of role, and while the Nova can mount better knife fighting builds it also has the issue of significantly worse weapon mounts and hitboxes (and no armor quirks).
-Side Torso Dog is just better than the Catapult because of clan tech, but it also is far from the worst clan mech (probably #5 or #6 best)
-Summoner compares pretty closely at its tonnage with IS heavies but the 70 and 75 IS heavies aren't considered very good, either (the best IS heavies are still universally the Thunderbolts/Jagermechs)
-Gargoyle compares to the Zeus pretty closely which is still 3rd tier or maybe low 2nd tier at best
-Warhawk performs the same role as the Stalker but is worse at it because of terrible hitboxes and weapon mounts

So, of the clan mechs we rarely see most are comparable to mediocre IS mechs or just worse than the best ones. Clan Wave 3 will have its own load of problems because those mechs have nice mounts/loadouts/hitboxes(hopefully), but we can't blanket nerf just because a few mechs cause issues. Then we end up with the problem that now faces the Highlander and Victor.