86 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

Mcgral18, on 28 June 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

Well, it seems Russ had no idea this was an issue in the town hall, despite the forum talking about it for years...well, that's upsetting.

True. Its very saddening that Russ said he was hearing the idea for the first time... after countless number of posts, tweets and discussions.

Lets hope we don't get disappointed now. Lets hope Russ sees the "light" .... a clan light.

[Lostdragon]

This is one of those lingering issues that has made PGI look stupid for years and seems likely to remain doing so because they don't seem to care.

[Mcgral18]

Figured I'd bring this back, the PTS had 5% quirks on a select few mechs, but that doesn't cover the whole PoorDub tax on the Urbie. It only brought it to 1.9H/s dissipation with the 10 heatsinks and a max engine.


The 0.6x would eliminate the discrepancy entirety, and bring it to 2H/s even.

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 September 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[sycocys]

Wasn't the 3-second jenner the one with 6 ML that you could cycle through nearly as fast as you could fire them?

If that's the same one it was totally possibly to core out the rear of anything in under 3 seconds in many cases at about the same exact moment their paper doll registered taking damage the first time.

[Mcgral18]

sycocys, on 16 September 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

Wasn't the 3-second jenner the one with 6 ML that you could cycle through nearly as fast as you could fire them?

If that's the same one it was totally possibly to core out the rear of anything in under 3 seconds in many cases at about the same exact moment their paper doll registered taking damage the first time.

Don't think so. MLs had a 3 second cooldown and 1 second burn time.


It took time for them to cycle. Heat capacity wasn't an issue with PoorDubs or TrueDubs. Jenners have 10 TrueDubs regardless.

[sycocys]

Small lasers maybe? It's been so long but I do recall being able to just shred through on chain fire with one of those Jenners. It was downright nasty.

[Lyoto Machida]

sycocys, on 16 September 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

Wasn't the 3-second jenner the one with 6 ML that you could cycle through nearly as fast as you could fire them?

If that's the same one it was totally possibly to core out the rear of anything in under 3 seconds in many cases at about the same exact moment their paper doll registered taking damage the first time.

So I guess you just had to stand behind an assault that didn't turn or move laterally for 3 seconds? I remember doing the slow walk behind enemy Atlases while in a Jenner back in CB but doing that nowadays will get you killed.

[aniviron]

Mcgral18, on 16 September 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Figured I'd bring this back, the PTS had 5% quirks on a select few mechs, but that doesn't cover the whole PoorDub tax on the Urbie. It only brought it to 1.9H/s dissipation with the 10 heatsinks and a max engine.


The 0.6x would eliminate the discrepancy entirety, and bring it to 2H/s even.

It also was only on the Locust, Commando, and one other I believe (Arctic Cheetah?) and did not affect the Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, or Adder. So not only did they not give enough of a bonus to make up for the discrepancy, they also only applied it to half the mechs that needed it.

[Deathlike]

Is there any way we can force Russ into a Mist Lynx and Paul into a Spider-5V, and see that deathmatch?

Hilarity will ensue, and we'll soon learn their tiers (or not)!!!! (Although, all PGI staff should show their Tiers IMO.)

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 16 September 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

and we'll soon learn their tiers (or not)!!!! (Although, all PGI staff should show their Tiers IMO.)

But friend, haven't you heard?

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 16 September 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

But friend, haven't you heard?

If only the MM would set Paul up with SJR, EmP, 228 on the opfor all the time.. then his new tier will be appropriate...

[Navid A1]

Deathlike, on 16 September 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

Is there any way we can force Russ into a Mist Lynx and Paul into a Spider-5V, and see that deathmatch?

Hilarity will ensue, and we'll soon learn their tiers (or not)!!!! (Although, all PGI staff should show their Tiers IMO.)

A mist lynx with 4 ERMLs is damn deadly against the spider though.... then we may see a nerf for the lynx... be careful with your requests.

Th thing that baffles me still... is the fact that russ was unaware of a mechanic in their own game (poordubs with sub-250 engines)

Kitfoxes, adders, the lynx and most little lights desperately need those truedubs.... or some stats buff to compensate for that.

Edited by Navid A1, 16 September 2015 - 06:36 PM.

[Deathlike]

Navid A1, on 16 September 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

A mist lynx with 4 ERMLs is damn deadly against the spider though.... then we may see a nerf for the lynx... be careful with your requests.

Th thing that baffles me still... is the fact that russ was unaware of a mechanic in their own game (poordubs with sub-250 engines)

Kitfoxes, adders, the lynx and most little lights desperately need those truedubs.... or some stats buff to compensate for that.

The ACH with 4 CERMED is pretty hot (especially after the quirk removal). The Mist Lynx actually has it worse... especially when you force its hand.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 September 2015 - 06:46 PM.

[Rushmoar]

Mcgral18, on 24 March 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

While I am also upset with the general state of PoorDubs, how a mech with 10 DHS has 11.5 DHS worth of dissipation, how a 17 DHS mech has 17 TrueDubs, while a 18 DHS mech does not have 18 TrueDubs; I feel this issue is more important, since it does affect the weakest mechs, such as Commandos, Locusts and Mist Lynxes.


The first 10 DHS should be TrueDubs, period. Not simply restricted to 250+ rated engines. PoorDubs for 10+ can remain...for now.


Easy band-aid solution? Give +0.6x Heat Dissipation quirks to the affected mechs. That nullifies the deficiency, and normalizes them with mechs that have a 250 rated engine complete with 10 TrueDubs. X corresponding to the number of PoorDubs.

I also agree with this idea. Lights are hurt by this and run hotter then they should. And a solution is in the works. The new rebalance has heat quirks for 3 light mechs atm. I think they are the Mist Lyxs, Locust, and the Urban Mech. All have better cooling because they have smaller engines that are less then 250.

[Mcgral18]

Rushmoar, on 16 September 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

I also agree with this idea. Lights are hurt by this and run hotter then they should. And a solution is in the works. The new rebalance has heat quirks for 3 light mechs atm. I think they are the Mist Lyxs, Locust, and the Urban Mech. All have better cooling because they have smaller engines that are less then 250.

Not quite enough, as that's only a 5% boost to cooling.
That brings 10 heatsinks to 1.9H/s, below the 2.0H/s of a 250+ engine.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why don't we choose one value for everything? Its simpler and its fair: 1.7 for everything

Its still not fair because youre still required to have a minimum of 10 heat sinks. And mechs like the commando have to use up 6 critical slots outside their engine to take upto 10 heatsinks. Add that to the fact the commando loses 2 additional crit slots on hand actuators and those -8 crit slots means the commando usually cant take ferrofibrous armor. All because it cant have 10 internal heatsinks.

The fairest way to fix it is to make ALL engines have 10 internal heatsinks regardless of engine size.

Essentially this is the fix:
225-245 engines = now has 10 internal heatsinks instead of 9 and weighs +1 ton
200-220 engines = now has 10 internal heatsinks instead of 8 and weighs +2 tons

you give all the sub-250 engines 10 internal heatsinks and increase their weight based on the heatsinks gained.

Edited by Khobai, 16 September 2015 - 07:16 PM.

[stealthraccoon]

But wait - if we make all truedubs into poordubs (yes, I said eliminate true double heat sinks), the stompy robots will all have equally iffy (but slightly improved over singles) heat dispersion rates, and it would lower TTK and discourage boating lasers all at the same time (and we don't have to screw with quirks, imaginary sinks or build mechanics)!

The mechanic of the game that was changed from table top the most, was rate of fire. The combination of having different rates of fire (hey look, I can alpha all my lasers multiple times) and doubled armor values, give energy weapons an unfair advantage in comparison to ammo dependent weapons. Not to mention the ability to ignore velocity, trajectory and for the most part heat, really just makes lasers overpowered.



I'm being serious about this idea, because lasers are not penalized enough.

Edited by stealthraccoon, 16 September 2015 - 08:18 PM.

[FupDup]

stealthraccoon, on 16 September 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

But wait - if we make all truedubs into poordubs, the stompy robots will all have equally iffy heat dispersion rates, and it would lower TTK and discourage boating lasers all at the same time!

I'm being serious about this idea, because lasers are not penalized enough.

All of the robots that benefit from this are 45 tons or lighter. They're not the problem, so letting sub-250 engine mechs have the same base cooling ability as 250+ engine mechs would not make the game implode.

Removing TruDubs would just take a dump on a huge number of builds, even seemingly "innocent" ones. Only ballistic/Gauss boats would emerge unscathed, and then the forums would cry for more ballistic nerfs once again.

I'm really starting to miss the good old days when people cried about PPCs and Autocannons all day, calling them meta tryhard crutches while simultaneously regarding lasers as sub-par weapons. Pepperridge Farm remembers...

[LordNothing]

the answer to the problem is ghost sinks. you take the number of truedubs the mech can mount with its top rated engine and call that x. a second value y, can be 0 for single and 1 for double. you then add a quirk to the mech that gives you a fake heatsink with a value of (10-x)*0.6*y. you are required to use the top rated engine to get 10 truedubs. this quirk is selectively applied to only the lights that have severe overheating issues (pretty much any light that cannot equip 250 rated engine). you might exclude 35 tonners from the quirk as well since many of the 35 ton lights are great little death machines.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 September 2015 - 09:33 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Quirks are the easiest bandaid. Each variant file, or CT quirk in the case of Clams.