214 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Is it bad that I haven't used my Grid Iron since not long after buying it because....it sucked?

Guess I need to try it now.

[Revis Volek]

GenghisJr, on 24 March 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

For this to be a game, both clan and IS need to be equal. Different strengths and weakness's sure but the overall result must give a balanced game. Even with quirks, IS mechs are less powerful than clans, I dont know how much further IS weapon quirks can go so perhaps the next step is to nerf DWF, TBR and SCR down to IS levels.
Ive had the DRG 1N since the beginning and recently bought a GI, they both have high DPS. Neither has the firepower of a an SCR, TBR or DWF so there is still room for either more quirks or clan nerfs.

Quriks dont MAGICALLY give mechs hard points so thinking that your Alpha damage was going to go anywhere means you were wrong from the start. Quirk incresed things like DPS by having a faster cooldown, Heat generation, things like that. Also Added range to many of them, but in no way were the quirks ever meant put them on the exact even level. They are not trying to make them all TBR and SCR's also i cant believe the DWF is even being talked about. I kill more of them in lights and mediums then i cant count....

But again, Quirks dont grant hardpoints so you wont see the Firepower go up in the mechlab but the DPS on IS mechs is on par with most Clans mechs. It things like face time that increase in order to dish out the DMG with some of the builds like the DRG-1N, gotta play sneaky in that thing.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I remember when we used to call it the Sh*t Iron

at least I did

Also: the Sh*tty Baby / Dumpster Baby

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 25 March 2015 - 12:45 PM.

[Kalo Shin]

I like it the way it is. Not a lot of mechs under Heavy can efficiently mount a gauss-rifle.

[Ted Wayz]

The Hunchback doesn't have jump jets, so why are you posting about it?

j/k

If I gave you 50% off on something you won't buy and 25% off something you will, tell me what direction you would go.

That is the Grid Iron.

There is a reason why you see so many energy platform Hunchbacks and so few Grid Irons in public play and CW. First, Gauss takes skill and many people do not have the patience for it. It is the anti-twitch weapon. Second, it is fragile and people do not want to lose a large part of their firepower early in a match. Third, no jump jets to get you into the places on maps where the gauss really shines.

You could make the Gauss shoot as fast as an UAC5 and I do not know that it would be used anymore than it is now.

A Dire with JJ's....now that is P2W.

[Fate 6]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

well, they don't die any easier than any other Hunchback...

Yes, they definitely die faster, die in this case being the loss of 90% of your weaponry. You lose the Gauss rifle very easily if you aren't careful, and actually making use of that CDR quirk requires a lot of face time. It's a great mech, but it isn't completely OP. A lot of people used to think it was but the threat of taking a huge alpha to your RT and effectively losing your mech is quite significant in a majority of situations.

Yes, the GI is a DPS monster, but it is pretty comparable at long range to what the 4G does up close. The drawbacks of being up close are balanced out by better burst damage, no charge, and no instant-exploding main weapon.

[Telmasa]

All I can really say to this thread is, I told you so. I said the moment I saw the GI's quirks that it's brokenly OP, nobody listened then....

Ultimatum X, on 24 March 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

Sorry, I disagree here.
Disclosure: I don't own any Hunchbacks.
The GI does one weapon and often needs to run around 4 or 5 tons of ammo.
That is around twenty tons invested into one gun, on a mech likely to be running an XL.
Quirks like the 4G received, such as Velocity & Range, aren't nearly as useful for a Gauss Rifle as they are for an AC 20.
Also, keep in mind that the AC 20s DPS is natively higher (5 vs. 3.16), as it has both a faster overall recycle (4s) with higher damage per volley (20) vs. the Gauss at 4.75s (CD + Charge Up) and a lower damage per volley (15).
I haven't done the math, but this probably closes the gap on their DPS difference.
The 4G will still overall be better with an AC 20, it has significant velocity (+25%) boosting the projectile to a bit over 800m/s, which coupled with the added range (+25%, I think 364m with T5 module) means you can start utilizing that AC 20 at further ranges for more effective damage with less drop off and better accuracy.

Kalo Shin, on 25 March 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

I like it the way it is. Not a lot of mechs under Heavy can efficiently mount a gauss-rifle.

Yeah, and so what? I was running a Gauss Rifle in my Shadowhawk for months before the quirk pass came out, and it didn't get ANY COOLDOWN QUIRKS WHATSOEVER. (maybe 5% tops at one point of time, but I digress).

How is that fair? It's only 5 tons more, it's much bigger than the Hunchback, it begs for XL engine in order to mount the Gauss & still have enough ammo and spare tonnage for backup weaponry - yet it got NOTHING towards buffing ballistics, let alone a magical rapid-fire gauss quirk.

Yet *somehow* I still was performing just fine in my Shadowhawk - until I ran into other Grid Irons.
When I happened to meet Grid Irons, they were able to shoot twice as fast as me - the only way I could cope was purposefully juking them into missing just long enough for me to shoot them & twist back when their second shot hit me, hoping it would take my arm instead of the torsos.

And yet none of you see any problems with that whatsoever? You're deceiving yourselves, because none of "leave it alone" naysayers want to admit the Grid Iron, as it's currently quirked, is a gimmick mech that breaks the game - you enjoy being able to trade evenly with dual-gauss mechs from either clan or IS while being 2/3rds the tonnage & enjoying one of the better ballistic hardpoints available for any mech in the game.

Just beyond silly. Someone said it earlier in this thread, quirks that sum up to more than 25% break the game and need to be removed and/or changed over to "iterative" style quirks.

Edited by Telmasa, 25 March 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[Burktross]

Telmasa, on 25 March 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

All I can really say to this thread is, I told you so. I said the moment I saw the GI's quirks that it's brokenly OP, nobody listened then....




Yeah, and so what? I was running a Gauss Rifle in my Shadowhawk for months before the quirk pass came out, and it didn't get ANY COOLDOWN QUIRKS WHATSOEVER. (maybe 5% tops at one point of time, but I digress).

How is that fair? It's only 5 tons more, it's much bigger than the Hunchback, it begs for XL engine in order to mount the Gauss & still have enough ammo and spare tonnage for backup weaponry - yet it got NOTHING towards buffing ballistics, let alone a magical rapid-fire gauss quirk.

Yet *somehow* I still was performing just fine in my Shadowhawk - until I ran into other Grid Irons.
When I happened to meet Grid Irons, they were able to shoot twice as fast as me - the only way I could cope was purposefully juking them into missing just long enough for me to shoot them & twist back when their second shot hit me, hoping it would take my arm instead of the torsos.

And yet none of you see any problems with that whatsoever? You're deceiving yourselves, because none of "leave it alone" naysayers want to admit the Grid Iron, as it's currently quirked, is a gimmick mech that breaks the game - you enjoy being able to trade evenly with dual-gauss mechs from either clan or IS while being 2/3rds the tonnage & enjoying one of the better ballistic hardpoints available for any mech in the game.

Just beyond silly. Someone said it earlier in this thread, quirks that sum up to more than 25% break the game and need to be removed and/or changed over to "iterative" style quirks.

Er... can't this example be applied to any mech with better quirks?
"I run 6 medlas on my hbk 4j-- but now the 4P has medlas quirks! Gimmick broke my build!"

[Ultimax]

Telmasa, on 25 March 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

Yeah, and so what? I was running a Gauss Rifle in my Shadowhawk for months before the quirk pass came out, and it didn't get ANY COOLDOWN QUIRKS WHATSOEVER. (maybe 5% tops at one point of time, but I digress).

The thing you seem to not recognize is that Hunchbacks were mostly T4 and T5 crapmechs that no one used, especially the Grid Iron.

Shadowhawks on the other hand were taken over hunchbacks, specifically because they were superior.


Now, I think Shadowhawks could use a bit of something. They certainly aren't the best mediums for the IS anymore, but you can't ignore why Hunchbacks were given those quirks in the first place.

[Creovex]

@OP

"Excuse me sir, I think you have confused the Grid Iron Hunchback variant for a Hollander.... opps, not bringing Hollanders in the game???... very well, continue on..."

At least the Grid Iron removes the need for a COMPLETELY useless 35 tonner... Talk about a nightmare to have ingame... just look how the Raven 3L is already rocking the Sniper Job...

[Stargell]

Seems absurd to call for nerfs on the Grid Iron when the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf still exist in their current incarnations. Is anybody really having a problem with Grid Irons? I barely ever even see them. Is the whole basis of this argument 'the percentages look too high on paper'?

[Bishop Steiner]

Michael Abt, on 25 March 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

I lost track how many driveby snapshot kills i landed since quirks introduction, so yes, i'd take the current version with velocity boost over higher cooldown only boost.

Maybe you forgot but a few weeks ago i started a thread asking folks to post their AC20 hit rate. I know that my hitrate went up significantly thanks to the velocity boost. Assuming that it did help yours as well i am not worried - faster cooldown won't help you when your aim is off. All you'd do is either overheat faster or run out of ammo faster.

Out of ammo and overheated doesn't matter if the other guy is dead.

[Bobzilla]

It's pretty crazy, gives better DPS than an AC20 but with range. Luckily it seems most people can't use a GR and it's a hero, otherwise people would be using them a lot.

Would you rather a YLW or a GI? If you're good with the GR, the GI wins.

Also the charge doesn't cause any more face time, charge while you are whippin back around.

[Ted Wayz]

As I said the Gauss takes skill and is not newbie friendly. It is great to talk about turn while charging or snapshots, etc. But that takes skill. Most new players would prefer the ease of lasers, and lots of them, than the patience it takes to master the gauss.

Matter o' fact, I guarantee that 50% of new players don't return to the Gauss after the first time they use it. They are so used to something shooting when you press a button that when it doesn't happen panic and despair set in.

[William Mountbank]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

nespotic apidity

I do believe your editor is neglecting his duties.

[Telmasa]

Burktross, on 25 March 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Er... can't this example be applied to any mech with better quirks?
"I run 6 medlas on my hbk 4j-- but now the 4P has medlas quirks! Gimmick broke my build!"

Technically, yes. Which is exactly why I complain that any mech with summed quirks over 25% breaks the game - why put weapons on ANY other mech if they're twice as good on 1 certain mech thanks to quirks? There is such a thing as making things *too* good to the point that it's just cheese, like full spray-in-a-can-unload-in-your-mouth-level cheese.

I happen to not enjoy that much cheese - I like having a lot of balanced variety in flavor with games that I play - not just "meta flavor of the month", or "power creep flavor" like on World of Tanks, or "Cheater's Cheeses" in broken games like Combat Arms or old Call of Duty titles.

Ultimatum X, on 25 March 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

The thing you seem to not recognize is that Hunchbacks were mostly T4 and T5 crapmechs that no one used, especially the Grid Iron.

Shadowhawks on the other hand were taken over hunchbacks, specifically because they were superior.

Now, I think Shadowhawks could use a bit of something. They certainly aren't the best mediums for the IS anymore, but you can't ignore why Hunchbacks were given those quirks in the first place.

As Bishop has already said in this thread, that mech "tiering" was a bunch of hogwash based soley on the opinions of a few people from NGNGtv. I didn't really agree with it when it first came out even without knowing how they came up with it, and I sure as hell don't agree with it now.

Iterative quirks would be a far better way to take things in order to make up for whatever 'weaknesses' the Hunchbacks, and especially the Grid Iron, might have.
p.s. It's a 50 ton medium mech, dude. As far as 50-ton mechs go in this game, Hunchbacks are one of the better platforms - smaller, good hardpoints, each variant had its own flavor even before the quirks, it was perfectly fine before. Just cause it can't pack on enough armor to go head-on with a fresh Atlas or Dire Wolf doesn't mean it sucks.

The fact here is PGI went the wrong way with the initial quirk passes (though since it's breaking new territory, I'm inclined to forgive them), and like the Thunderbolt 9S and the Firestarters, it's time to go through and undo the damage of the Quirkening.

Stargell, on 25 March 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Seems absurd to call for nerfs on the Grid Iron when the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf still exist in their current incarnations. Is anybody really having a problem with Grid Irons? I barely ever even see them. Is the whole basis of this argument 'the percentages look too high on paper'?

It's really naiive to be comparing the Grid Iron to a 55-ton & 75 ton Clan Mech. And truthfully, neither of those mechs are really "OP" - they die just like any other mech in the game if you just bother to SHOOT them.

The problem there is the weaponry - most players are boating streakSRMs and cERML+LPL barf. Clan Streaks and cERML are a little OP - and that "little OP" becomes "alot OP" when you boat nothing but those weapons.

If Clan Streak ranges were reduced to that of IS (or just a bit more instead of current MRM range); if ghost heat penalties were inflicted if you fire two LPL and then *any* laser on top of that, at the same time; if Clan Streaks possibly got a heat or cooldown nerf (keep it *slight*, don't have to go too far here) - it would go a very long way towards making Stormcrows & Timberwolves feel more balanced, because you'd see far less of the Doomcrow & Timberbarf copycat builds running around.

Again, none of that really has much of anything to do with the problems caused by giving the Grid Iron quirks so that the Gauss Rifle is literally twice as powerful as on any other mech that doesn't receive ballistic cooldown benefits.

There are no limits on possibilities for how we might requirk the Grid Iron to keep a "competitive edge" without affecting weaponry so strongly - so there's no reason to be clinging to 50% cooldown like it's the one & only thing that makes the Grid Iron even halfway capable (Grid Iron'd be just fine without it, but so many of you seem to believe this that I might as well let that point slide).

[SoukouKiheiVOTOMS]

The thing with the Grid Iron and the other Huncbacks is that they are easy to destroy... They definitely can hit like a truck, but catch one off guard or run a decent Assault and they're toast.

[Bishop Steiner]

SoukouKiheiVOTOMS, on 26 March 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

The thing with the Grid Iron and the other Huncbacks is that they are easy to destroy... They definitely can hit like a truck, but catch one off guard or run a decent Assault and they're toast.

thing is I am comparing hunchback to hunchback and the disparity between. Also, heh-..... I love it when people think my HBK is easy prey.....

William Mountbank, on 26 March 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

I do believe your editor is neglecting his duties.

eh. I don't see where I said "apidity" anywhere in my post.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 March 2015 - 06:17 AM.

[Stargell]

Telmasa, on 26 March 2015 - 04:10 AM, said:

Again, none of that really has much of anything to do with the problems caused by giving the Grid Iron quirks so that the Gauss Rifle is literally twice as powerful as on any other mech that doesn't receive ballistic cooldown benefits.

There are no limits on possibilities for how we might requirk the Grid Iron to keep a "competitive edge" without affecting weaponry so strongly - so there's no reason to be clinging to 50% cooldown like it's the one & only thing that makes the Grid Iron even halfway capable (Grid Iron'd be just fine without it, but so many of you seem to believe this that I might as well let that point slide).

I'm seeing a lot of posting about the problems of the Grid Iron's quirks on paper ('That number is too high! It should be lower!'), but I'm not seeing any evidence of the 'problem' in the actual game.

[William Mountbank]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

eh. I don't see where I said "apidity" anywhere in my post.

nespotic fox in the hen house.

Over initial weeks, there was some QQ about the apidity of the big gun.

It's not that I'm trying to derail the thread, I know you meant rapidity too, but I just really want a truly nespotic Kitfox!