455 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

The True Space Pope, on 29 March 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

The Space Pope is going to do you a solid and help you out by offering you a wonderful piece of advice that has historically been bestowed upon all students of statistics and the sciences.

"Correlation is not causation."

He hopes that this "lostech" information will help the Clans in their future endeavors.

But it was a perfectly good rational when it was the IS saying the same thing?

[Jakob Knight]

Leggin Ho, on 29 March 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

Yeah please run mechs with armor values like that and see how far you get in a CW drop. I run full armor as well as ECM, BAP and a TC, I can strip a mech down to nothing and just throw weapons and HS on too, doubt you'll get far in a CW match in it though so try again.

I will spell it out for you, since you seem too dense to understand basic comparison.

The issue is -HEAT DISSIPATION- and -OVERGUNNING-, not 'How Great A Mech I Can Make'. Do you, for one second, not think both mechs can sacrifice weapons loadout to get more armor? Or, better yet, let's add Endo-Steel to both, and see how the Clan mech pulls even -farther- ahead of the Inner Sphere mech?

By completely ignoring the subject at hand in order to attempt to discredit the results, you only prove that your statements are utterly without worth or knowledge of the facts. All you show is your ignorance for actual comparison.

The fact is that the Clan mech will -always- be better than the Inner Sphere mech in heat dissipation unless the Clan pilot purposefully adds so many weapons on their mech that the Inner Sphere mech would have even more of an issue with the same decisions.

To put it in simple words for you, you are completely and utterly wrong.

[Wing 0]

JDH4mm3r, on 29 March 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Let me correct you here and now: I do not consider the nova a super bad mech. If you are a good pilot, you should be able to pilot anything and turn a superbad mech into something kickass with the skills you have. I'll take the nova anyday over the stormcrow and i've pwned other stormcrow pilots in that same mech. So don't be too quick to judge.

And ive been able to use nova's in CW or regular queue no problem. and I can get away with a lot of things on it. I know a lot of ppl have seen me do it.

[Leggin Ho]

Jakob Knight, on 29 March 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

I will spell it out for you, since you seem too dense to understand basic comparison.

The issue is -HEAT DISSIPATION- and -OVERGUNNING-, not 'How Great A Mech I Can Make'. Do you, for one second, not think both mechs can sacrifice weapons loadout to get more armor? Or, better yet, let's add Endo-Steel to both, and see how the Clan mech pulls even -farther- ahead of the Inner Sphere mech?

By completely ignoring the subject at hand in order to attempt to discredit the results, you only prove that your statements are utterly without worth or knowledge of the facts. All you show is your ignorance for actual comparison.

The fact is that the Clan mech will -always- be better than the Inner Sphere mech in heat dissipation unless the Clan pilot purposefully adds so many weapons on their mech that the Inner Sphere mech would have even more of an issue with the same decisions.

To put it in simple words for you, you are completely and utterly wrong.

YOU stated that Cln pilots "Over gun" mechs and that's why they can not run mech without over heating, I can run a stripped armor mech and throw on HS, but it still will shut down due to the broken heat that clan mechs are subject to. You want a "Smurfy" build great, make it and drop in a CW match and see how far you get, I don't over gun my mechs and they still have heat issues that the IS mechs due to their quirks do not have.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Mystere, on 29 March 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

But it was a perfectly good rational when it was the IS saying the same thing?

What does this have to do with the Space Pope's post?

The Space Pope dislikes when people somehow decide to attribute general sentiment to his posts when he himself has declared no such things.

Pointing out the silliness of Gyrok's post, i.e. arguing that lost planets in this case can allow for a causal claim, does not imply that the Space Pope would support such an argument from an Inner Sphere player (the Space Pope prefers good logic and does not consider himself to be particularly invested with either the IS or the Clans, he is simply here to blow up mechs and have some fun).

Edited by The True Space Pope, 29 March 2015 - 09:08 PM.

[Mystere]

The True Space Pope, on 29 March 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

What does this have to do with the Space Pope's post?

The Space Pope dislikes when people somehow decide to attribute general sentiment to his posts when he himself has declared no such things.

Pointing out the silliness of Gyrok's post, i.e. arguing that lost planets in this case can allow for a causal claim, does not imply that the Space Pope would support such an argument from an Inner Sphere player (the Space Pope prefers good logic and does not consider himself to be particularly invested with either the IS or the Clans, he is simply here to blow up mechs and have some fun).

Then where were you when your subjects were claiming as such. Were you conveniently unavailable?

[Mystere]

Ballynure was ridiculous today. For a few hours, the queue was 99+/99+. But, there were almost always 5 extra defending teams during that time.

Edited by Mystere, 29 March 2015 - 09:18 PM.

[zortesh]

JDH4mm3r, on 29 March 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Let me correct you here and now: I do not consider the nova a super bad mech. If you are a good pilot, you should be able to pilot anything and turn a superbad mech into something kickass with the skills you have. I'll take the nova anyday over the stormcrow and i've pwned other stormcrow pilots in that same mech. So don't be too quick to judge.

It is a terrible mech, objective it is a terrible mech... i can take out a 9 flamer hunchback and get 3 kills and 300+ damage.. ... ... the 9 flamer hunchback is still terrible thou.

Hell i've gotten 1k damage in catapults, mainly the jester, but catapults are still terrible mechs with terrible hitboxes.

the problem with using skill to take a inferior mech and make it superior is that the person that has equal skill and brought a superior mech will kick your ass.

The disparity gets even worse when your whole team takes subpar mechs, and the enemy team takes optimal mechs.

Kuritaclan, on 29 March 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:

a TBR without JJs? A Clan-Laservomit build without TC1 (ok it only adds 2,25% range lulz but you gain crit,zoom,targeting time - i rather like to see faster were i need to shot the enemy than having 1more DHS)? A Build without lower lower arm actuators?

Let us have a Showcase:
"one mech has to fire 3 llas twice to get the 52 dmg downrange, the other just alphas once" does not fit the argument: "similar damage and range" since the stk has 54dmg Alpha (in this build you supposed!) @ 585m (450m x20% Quirks + x10% Module) while the TBR is in this build 600m (x10% Module) and 405m (x10% Module) - everything under 445m is the same Alpha if I did the math right it coems down to:

@ Optimal Range for the STKs LL i.e. 585m the Alpha is:
47,3 dmg for TBR vs. 54,0 dmg for STK (TBR: 26 damage (full LPL) + 21,29 damage (ErML/LL 76%))
TBR Heat: 20H (2xLPL) + 24H (4xErML) = 44H before Masterys
STK Heat: 2x21H / with quirks: 16.9H (if fired in two salvos a 3LL) or 68.46H / with quirks: 54,8H before Masterys
@ Optimal Range for the TBRs LPL i.e. 660m the Alpha is:
44,9 dmg for TBR vs. 23,9dmg for 3LL /47,8 dmg with Alpha for STK (TBR: 26 damage (full LPL) + 18,9 (67,5%) vs. STK: 47,8 (LL/LPL 88,5%))
@ Optima Range for not getting hit by TBR ErML i.e. 890m the Alpha is:
19,3 dmg for TBR vs. 17,8dmg/35,5 dmg with Alpha for STK (TBR: 19,3 dmg (LPL@890m 74%) vs. STK: 35,5 dmg (LL@890m 65,7%))
@ above 1170m STK loss any chance to trade damage, so the TBR is in advantage - humm however the TBR only does do ~5dmg and the spread at this range is pretty high i guess.


You can see above between 445m and ~1000m the STK Alpha is higher than the TBR Alpha.
With 4LL the heat to damage ratio not dicipation (the STK has 3.91 heat/s discipation with mastery vs. the TBR 5.04 heat/s with mastery according to smurfys Weaponlab) is better for the stalker with 3 to 4 Lasers at all time and in between 750m and 1000m also the Alpha. So if both mechs would have equal heat dicipation the STK could wins the Damage race - but since the TBR will have higher discipation he can outdamage a STK. But if the Stk can stay away from the TBR an hold target ~2sec or disipate heat penality of his 6LL Alpha behind cover he win attrition war @ any given range above 445m to little above 1000m with the TBR - if the TBR choose to run into his Alpha equal range with this build (445m) he says hello to "Mr. DPS" DRG-1N and "Mr. Strip you" TDR-5SS with MPL - or arn't we talking about CW and 12 players per team? At least i saw some evaporating Mechs in Pushes against such STK/DRG/TDR stands - and if you are down in numbers you are more likely to hide behind cover and the trade on range is more likely than the coordinated push with the use of the better disipation.



so in the end:
stalker has higher mounts. - check
stalker has better inital sustainability. - check (and over all sustainability Std Engine, Armor Quirks, higher max Armor)
They both have similar damage and range. - nopp, or at least not over 445m to 1000m
the timerwolf moves much faster. - check (,but what does it help if you run into a fireline/fokusline - or do you think TBRs w8 around corners to trap a Stk 4N in a 1vs1 xD xD xD)
the timberwolf has 27 dhs to the stalkers 19 dhs, so it dissipates much faster, ie once there both at high heat the timberwolf will be back down to a heat where it can alpha quicker. - check (,but CW is no 1vs1 i guess)
The timberwolf can alpha every shot. - Idk what this should mean
Laser duration.. mech.. one mech has to fire 3 llas twice to get the 52 dmg downrange, the other just alphas once. - check (, but you have 11 friends who will not allow that the TBR face melts you in a distance under 445m in first place i guess)

Anyhow, i guess we have some pretty equal sides/or at least it is more equal after quirks than before, with very good mechs compared to others on the side on IS side and Clan Side.

Edit: I had some time and put up a graphic of "popular" builds

Comparing some builds, there is a range advantage on the IS side and on top of this a Damage per Heat advantage (however Heat discipation is not equal) - it looks like roles have swapped in the range department. The only one who looks positiv is the 4 C-ErLL Mechs, however they produce a lot heat Alphaing and grouping those will make you be at least 2 Seconds exposed what is vs experienced players not really an option. Just for the Lulz @ 1000m Clan mechs if fired heat efficent do 8 to 14 damage while some IS Mechs (BLR 1S, TDR 5SS, X5) can do 21 damage up to nearly the double.

a very good counter arguement.

Yes per a heat is mechs are more efficent, i wont argue that, but clans do have better dissipation, or atleast the potential for better dissipation, weither people use it or not is another question.

And if the timberwolf is poking against a line of stalkers .. .... well **** there playing a timberwolf wrong... personally id assume the 12 timberwolves would flatout charge the 12 stalkers and **** them... but thats me expecting clanners to well... fight like is players and use teamwork.

One glaring issue with that last graph.

ALL IS ERLL CAP AT 1500m so that range advantage thing is very skewed.

proof


Now weither this is a bug or not is irrelevant, is erll caps at 1500m.

So i fixed your graph.

Edited by zortesh, 29 March 2015 - 10:02 PM.

[Leeroy Mechkins]

Timberwolf comparison with Stalker is wrong because Timber is 75 tons, Stalker is 85 tons.
It is not comparing apples to apples. It is comparing middleweight to heavyweight.

Besides, a good Timber build has no problem handling a Stalker.
I played clan for months and took out Stalkers easily with 4ERML/2LRM15 or 4ERML/1LBX10 or 4ERML/2SRM4 builds.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 29 March 2015 - 10:25 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Jakob Knight, on 29 March 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

Fine. Let's end this farce right now.

...

And now we do the same showcase with the TDR 5SS - having 25% more Range on Energy weapons in general / 50% on MPL
i prepared 2 Loadouts:
2MPL 3ErLL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...61328db29615f88

4MPL 2ErLL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1c2daaf51eb0871

how do they do in the damage section?
- @ very long range (>1000m) the TDR is better - sry
- @ longer range (>750m) they are nearly equal - now the C-ErML advantage kicks in
- @ medium range (>300m) they have a gap in damage - as long as the MPLs don't reach their optimal range, however the "6 damage" were made up in the longe range outdamage periode before.
- @ low range (<350m) the MPLs kick fully in - okay now you rather would have the 4MPL instead of 2MPL

what does the heat say?
HBR Alpha: 20 (2xC-ErLLs) + 18 (3xC-ErMLs)
TDR 5ss V1 Alpha: 16 (2xErLL) + 16 (4xMPL)
TDR 5ss V2 Alpha: 24 (3xErLL) + 8 (2xMPL)
Quirks? For sure - Energy Weapon Heat Generation-15%
HBR Alpha: 20 (2xC-ErLLs) + 18 (3xC-ErMLs) = 38 Heat
TDR 5ss V1 Alpha: 16 (2xErLL) + 16 (4xMPL) = 32-32*,15=27.2
TDR 5ss V2 Alpha: 24 (3xErLL) + 8 (2xMPL) = 32-32*,15=27.2

Well both TDR produce "only" 71,58% of the Heat the HBR generates.

Heat dicipation (according to smurfy):
HBR: 28DHS to 5.20 heat/s
TDR 5ss V1 (2xErLL+4xMPL): 19DHS to 3.75 heat/s
TDR 5ss V2(3xErLL+2xMPL):19DHS to 3.75 heat/s

But lets look up first how many summed up Damage will be done till shutdown

As we can see, not that bad. After 7,6 sec Shutdown is okay - >150dmg should be enough to at least kick out the sidetorso of the Hellbringer. And since the Beam duration on the TDR is shorter this Chassi should do well in the consumption of the 1,5 sec beams by the Hellbringer.

Anyhow this is pretty much a 1vs1 Situation compare - in CW you have 11 budys who will rip your ass in the HBR if they could, as they would do so to the the TDR.

What now, nerfing the TDR and hear the flame, that is no longer viable. Buff the Jester to oblivion? Ether way there will be crys about. And for sure clans are OP xDxDxD !!!1111elf

zortesh, on 29 March 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

It is a terrible mech, objective it is a terrible mech... i can take out a 9 flamer hunchback and get 3 kills and 300+ damage.. ... ... the 9 flamer hunchback is still terrible thou.

Hell i've gotten 1k damage in catapults, mainly the jester, but catapults are still terrible mechs with terrible hitboxes.

the problem with using skill to take a inferior mech and make it superior is that the person that has equal skill and brought a superior mech will kick your ass.

The disparity gets even worse when your whole team takes subpar mechs, and the enemy team takes optimal mechs.

True story

zortesh, on 29 March 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Yes per a heat is mechs are more efficent, i wont argue that, but clans do have better dissipation, or atleast the potential for better dissipation, weither people use it or not is another question.

And if the timberwolf is poking against a line of stalkers .. .... well **** there playing a timberwolf wrong... personally id assume the 12 timberwolves would flatout charge the 12 stalkers and **** them... but thats me expecting clanners to well... fight like is players and use teamwork.

I just take the comp. I would guess to that a Timber in a 1 vs 1 Situation should be able to Rip the Stk. However this is more tricky in CW.

zortesh, on 29 March 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Now weither this is a bug or not is irrelevant, is erll caps at 1500m.

idk - but by the numbers it should get above it.

Leeroy Mechkins, on 29 March 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Timberwolf comparison with Stalker is wrong because Timber is 75 tons, Stalker is 85 tons.
It is not comparing apples to apples. It is comparing middleweight to heavyweight.

Besides, a good Timber build has no problem handling a Stalker.
I played clan for months and took out Stalkers easily with 4ERML/2LRM15 or 4ERML/1LBX10 or 4ERML/2SRM4 builds.

Since IS has 10T more to spend the 85t STK fit into the dropdeck to a 75t Timber. I do not know why people bring this Argument. The STK 4N is pretty bad standing for itself like in the group queue. This Chassi do therefore good in CW. So in the end it is team effort.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 29 March 2015 - 11:11 PM.

[mxlm]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 29 March 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Timberwolf comparison with Stalker is wrong because Timber is 75 tons, Stalker is 85 tons.
It is not comparing apples to apples. It is comparing middleweight to heavyweight.

In CW it's a like for like comparison; both fit into drop decks as the big guy without the need to make any sacrifices (STK, 2xheavies, 1 light).

Beyond that: single stalkers aren't scary. A firing line of Stalkers is. So talking about soloing STKs (prior to the latest quirks, it sounds like) isn't really relevant.

Edited by mxlm, 29 March 2015 - 10:49 PM.

[Sirius Drake]

War Dogz, on 28 March 2015 - 12:08 AM, said:

Ah don`t worry soon We the I.S will get another 5 tons in the drop deck and shall push the clans back in to deep space.

LOL. This.
Nothing to add here.

[Leeroy Mechkins]

Kuritaclan, on 29 March 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

Since IS has 10T more to spend the 85t STK fit into the dropdeck to a 75t Timber. I do not know why people bring this Argument. The STK 4N is pretty bad standing for itself like in the group queue. This Chassi do therefore good in CW. So in the end it is team effort.

You know that the 10T is to offset the OPness of not only the Timber but also the Stormcrows?
Most Clan players have at least 2-3 OP mechs, not just one.
Therefore you cannot fairly apply all 10T to one of the IS mech and use it to compare.

In other words, if Timber can compare to Stalker at 10 tons less, what happens when clan takes 2 Timbers.
Really OP.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 30 March 2015 - 01:34 AM.

[zortesh]

I tell you is erll's cap at 1500m for some reason, test it for yourself.



Its quite evident, you can test it yourself, just get a quirked erll mech, and shoot at something beyond 1500m, it does no damage even thou it should extend out to about 1800m's based on the 912m optimal range.

Given the is erll quirk mechs are better at around 1000m, and can fire a fair bit more, but clanners can sit just outside there range and return fire with immunity if they please.

There's ppcs and such for sniping that do better range, but giant balls of lighting flying at you are weirdly easy to dodge no matter who fires them. *shrugs*

Edited by zortesh, 30 March 2015 - 01:47 AM.

[jeirhart]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 30 March 2015 - 01:31 AM, said:

You know that the 10T is to offset the OPness of not only the Timber but also the Stormcrows?
Most Clan players have at least 2-3 OP mechs, not just one.
Therefore you cannot fairly apply all 10T to one of the IS mech and use it to compare.

In other words, if Timber can compare to Stalker at 10 tons less, what happens when clan takes 2 Timbers.
Really OP.

If Clans bring two Timber Wolves that automatically means they have to bring one of the 'garbage' clan mechs.

75 + 75 = 150 leaving you with 90 tons. Enough for SCR + light.

Meanwhile IS deck: STK (85) TDR (65) TDR (65) + FS9 (35)

[Kinski Orlawisch]

@Zortesh: Who old is it? My Spider with AC2 does dmg on 2100m. Tested it. My Thunderbolt on 1800m. Tested in game and in Testing ground.

Checked it. Uploaded in Feb 2015. There had been patches.

Tested it with the Battelmaster 1S 3 ERLL 1 ML 4 SRM. No modules. 844m base range....in Testing ground Alpine no dmg on 1600m..Ingame..damage.

Strange.

Edited by Marc von der Heide, 30 March 2015 - 02:27 AM.

[LoklanZFG]

I look sadly to the morrow when this event is over and the IS pug swarms depart from CW, and clanners will outnumber us once again. With them we will lose many delicious tears from vatborn crybabies...

Edited by LoklanZFG, 30 March 2015 - 02:17 AM.

[anonymous161]

I dont remember seeing 99+ against IS planets.

cw is broken, but oh well got my premium time, winning doesn't even matter as long as you get a decent damage score to win cbills, winning yes will earn you a good deal more but when you know you are winning for nothing it's hard to care. Not like winning planets does anything as far as I know neither does keeping them. This is pretty much just a slightly different regular match cw just has a few quriks and only one good map as far as I know and I'm bored of playing hellboro.

The maps are really stupidly designed and unimaginative.

[B0oN]

Here LoklanZFG, a barrel of my sweetest tears, just for you to have a small cache of them .
Enjoy !

On the more earnest side : How ´bout we flip populations ? All Clanswomen and -men go to IS for 2 weeks, and you spheroid guysers go Clan for 2 weeks . After that we switch back and compare e-peen lengths again, deal ?

[latinisator]

Ok, so we have lost 8 planets and could not move on because of numbers and mechanics. But this will end

Tuesday March 31st, 11:59 PM PDT (April 1st, 6:59:59 UTC).

After that, normal population will be restored to CW.
I see this event as a server side stress test AND a test on what will happen if CW is heavy populated. Hopefully PGI will get the point that this imbalance in numbers is a problem and will thus modify mechanics. Maybe just cut the numbers of attackers and defenders at 60 each.