455 replies to this topic

[Jakob Knight]

Kuritaclan, on 29 March 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

And now we do the same showcase with the TDR 5SS - having 25% more Range on Energy weapons in general / 50% on MPL
i prepared 2 Loadouts:
2MPL 3ErLL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...61328db29615f88

4MPL 2ErLL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1c2daaf51eb0871

how do they do in the damage section?
- @ very long range (>1000m) the TDR is better - sry
- @ longer range (>750m) they are nearly equal - now the C-ErML advantage kicks in
- @ medium range (>300m) they have a gap in damage - as long as the MPLs don't reach their optimal range, however the "6 damage" were made up in the longe range outdamage periode before.
- @ low range (<350m) the MPLs kick fully in - okay now you rather would have the 4MPL instead of 2MPL

what does the heat say?
HBR Alpha: 20 (2xC-ErLLs) + 18 (3xC-ErMLs)
TDR 5ss V1 Alpha: 16 (2xErLL) + 16 (4xMPL)
TDR 5ss V2 Alpha: 24 (3xErLL) + 8 (2xMPL)
Quirks? For sure - Energy Weapon Heat Generation-15%
HBR Alpha: 20 (2xC-ErLLs) + 18 (3xC-ErMLs) = 38 Heat
TDR 5ss V1 Alpha: 16 (2xErLL) + 16 (4xMPL) = 32-32*,15=27.2
TDR 5ss V2 Alpha: 24 (3xErLL) + 8 (2xMPL) = 32-32*,15=27.2

Well both TDR produce "only" 71,58% of the Heat the HBR generates.

Heat dicipation (according to smurfy):
HBR: 28DHS to 5.20 heat/s
TDR 5ss V1 (2xErLL+4xMPL): 19DHS to 3.75 heat/s
TDR 5ss V2(3xErLL+2xMPL):19DHS to 3.75 heat/s

But lets look up first how many summed up Damage will be done till shutdown

As we can see, not that bad. After 7,6 sec Shutdown is okay - >150dmg should be enough to at least kick out the sidetorso of the Hellbringer. And since the Beam duration on the TDR is shorter this Chassi should do well in the consumption of the 1,5 sec beams by the Hellbringer.

Anyhow this is pretty much a 1vs1 Situation compare - in CW you have 11 budys who will rip your ass in the HBR if they could, as they would do so to the the TDR.

What now, nerfing the TDR and hear the flame, that is no longer viable. Buff the Jester to oblivion? Ether way there will be crys about. And for sure clans are OP xDxDxD !!!1111elf


True story


I just take the comp. I would guess to that a Timber in a 1 vs 1 Situation should be able to Rip the Stk. However this is more tricky in CW.


idk - but by the numbers it should get above it.


Since IS has 10T more to spend the 85t STK fit into the dropdeck to a 75t Timber. I do not know why people bring this Argument. The STK 4N is pretty bad standing for itself like in the group queue. This Chassi do therefore good in CW. So in the end it is team effort.

Some flaws in your analysis.

First off, you used Endosteel on your TDR while the HBR did not use this. Second, using a third ERLL to substitute for a Clan ER Medium Laser is inherently inaccurate as the ERLL is hotter, longer ranged, and takes considerably more tonnage. Using an IS LL produces a closer approximation in heat and range, if not tonnage, while using a Medium Laser produces a closer approximation in tonnage if not heat and range. Third, the TDR used a smaller engine in both configurations, further skewing the results while at the same time introducing more variables from the above into the comparison. As I did, try the same calculations while having the TDR match the HBR as closely as possible in speed, armor, upgrades, and weapons loadout, and see what happens.

Finally, does your analysis hold constant over the majority of Inner Sphere mechs when compared to Clan mechs, or is it an exception for one model and less so for the rest of the Inner Sphere mechs such as the Catapult, and Jaegermech? What about the Orion vrs the Timberwolf? The Stormcrow vrs the Shadowhawk? Is the conclusion of Inner Sphere heat management compared to Clan heat management based on the exceptions or the rule?

[masCh]

The fact that somebody took a screencap where it showed the clans losing to IS already says a thousand words.
If I were to take a screencap of each battle where the IS lost against the Clan.. i wouldn't have space in my 1tb drive for anything else.

[Kuritaclan]

zortesh, on 30 March 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

I tell you is erll's cap at 1500m for some reason, test it for yourself.

Its quite evident, you can test it yourself, just get a quirked erll mech, and shoot at something beyond 1500m, it does no damage even thou it should extend out to about 1800m's based on the 912m optimal range.

Could it be a problem of testing ground?

Jakob Knight, on 30 March 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

Some flaws in your analysis.

First off, you used Endosteel on your TDR while the HBR did not use this. Second, using a third ERLL to substitute for a Clan ER Medium Laser is inherently inaccurate as the ERLL is hotter, longer ranged, and takes considerably more tonnage. Using an IS LL produces a closer approximation in heat and range, if not tonnage, while using a Medium Laser produces a closer approximation in tonnage if not heat and range. Third, the TDR used a smaller engine in both configurations, further skewing the results while at the same time introducing more variables from the above into the comparison. As I did, try the same calculations while having the TDR match the HBR as closely as possible in speed, armor, upgrades, and weapons loadout, and see what happens.

Finally, does your analysis hold constant over the majority of Inner Sphere mechs when compared to Clan mechs, or is it an exception for one model and less so for the rest of the Inner Sphere mechs such as the Catapult, and Jaegermech? What about the Orion vrs the Timberwolf? The Stormcrow vrs the Shadowhawk? Is the conclusion of Inner Sphere heat management compared to Clan heat management based on the exceptions or the rule?

It does not has a flaw - the kind how you can equip certain mechs compared to others is flawed, and the quirks are just better on some mechs to others, so that you do not get compareable mechs with same loadout but compareable mechs with diffrent loladout. It opens the need to adapt. And if Players do not choose to since they wann bring everytime the same it is in full mode clear that you can not compare a aple with a banana. Best example is comparing quirked LPL Lasers with C-LPL - both are in base diffrent and with quirks they differ even more, but however there are certain Mechs where IS LLs get pretty near the CLPL. So in the end the try: "As I did, try the same calculations while having the TDR match the HBR as closely as possible in speed, armor, upgrades, and weapons loadout, and see what happens." will never bring you what you try to acchive with it, since you break on point to make another thing even, and disrespect the Mech with its needs to be viable. Also we all know that there are on both sides better Mechs and worse ones. If you than bring both togehter in matchup and not the flavored Quirk of the Month Mechs it is kinda pointless. Also a 1 vs 1 compare is in the end garbage, since on the battlefield you have to fit in the Mech with a loadout to a tactic or you will set your team back.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 30 March 2015 - 04:18 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

So, instead of complaining that you lost planets because the IS is OP...maybe you should ask yourselves:

What is -MS- doing with their Clan Wolf Mechs that you aren't? What is JFP on the Jade Falcon border doing with THEIR Clan mechs that you aren't?

Both of those units are a great fight, and get consistent wins. We had a long weekend of beating Wolf pug groups, and a number of Wolf units...but the few times we lost were to -MS- and JFP. They weren't taking bad clan mechs, and they were playing to the Clan mech advantages. Maybe ya'll should do the same. When I take a Clan mech, I know I play it differently than an IS.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 30 March 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Jakob Knight, on 30 March 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

Some flaws in your analysis.

First off, you used Endosteel on your TDR while the HBR did not use this. Second, using a third ERLL to substitute for a Clan ER Medium Laser is inherently inaccurate as the ERLL is hotter, longer ranged, and takes considerably more tonnage. Using an IS LL produces a closer approximation in heat and range, if not tonnage, while using a Medium Laser produces a closer approximation in tonnage if not heat and range. Third, the TDR used a smaller engine in both configurations, further skewing the results while at the same time introducing more variables from the above into the comparison. As I did, try the same calculations while having the TDR match the HBR as closely as possible in speed, armor, upgrades, and weapons loadout, and see what happens.

Finally, does your analysis hold constant over the majority of Inner Sphere mechs when compared to Clan mechs, or is it an exception for one model and less so for the rest of the Inner Sphere mechs such as the Catapult, and Jaegermech? What about the Orion vrs the Timberwolf? The Stormcrow vrs the Shadowhawk? Is the conclusion of Inner Sphere heat management compared to Clan heat management based on the exceptions or the rule?

FF and ENDO are locked on clan mechs much like engines and some equipment. There is nothing he can about that. Like he said, it is not a flaw in his testing but a flaw from the game. The mechs are not equal but we are told balance is in a good place.

Also, your last question doesnt make much sense. If you had both kinds of mech you could see this yourself in the mech lab. Clan mechs run hotter then IS has been that way since day one.

Ghost Badger, on 30 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

So, instead of complaining that you lost planets because the IS is OP...maybe you should ask yourselves:

What is -MS- doing with their Clan Wolf Mechs that you aren't? What is JFP on the Jade Falcon border doing with THEIR Clan mechs that you aren't?

Both of those units are a great fight, and get consistent wins. We had a long weekend of beating Wolf pug groups, and a number of Wolf units...but the few times we lost were to -MS- and JFP. They weren't taking bad clan mechs, and they were playing to the Clan mech advantages. Maybe ya'll should do the same. When I take a Clan mech, I know I play it differently than an IS.

I didnt lose a game all weekend, had nothing to do with that. The IS out zerged us and beat us with numbers, i won every game this weekend but still lost every planet we could.

Numbers WIN CW and the IS has way more numbers. We have been saying this for a loooooong time and it took over 3 months for you all to figure it out. Maybe if PGI helped a little here or there those who are no so good at math would see these things.

Edited by DarthRevis, 30 March 2015 - 09:02 AM.

[Czarr]

Operation bulldog comes but early in our BT universe here in MWO

Saw fission sporting DC tags last night , always a boost to morale having one of the best fighting for your faction

Edited by Czarr, 30 March 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

DarthRevis, on 30 March 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

I didnt lose a game all weekend, had nothing to do with that. The IS out zerged us and beat us with numbers, i won every game this weekend but still lost every planet we could.

I feel your pain, man. I've had similar weekends! I focus on having fun gameplay...not what tag is on the planet afterwards...but it can be disheartening to see that % keep going down despite your group kickin' ass!

Edited by Ghost Badger, 30 March 2015 - 09:09 AM.

[Pz_DC]

May I say my own few words?..
1)Whole weekend i didnt see strongest clans groups attacking - for example, im sure that VRGD can take a lot of Kuritian planets liek they did before, but ... where are they? Got back on ther FRR accounts?..
2)Clan tech is still OP, and you can sayy everything - it will not change that. Single clan weakness - heat management. Come on, it cant be a problem for any decent player, isnt it?..
3)Personaly I got strong feeling that IS pilots learned a lot - for example i've able to push over 1k damage while one week ago 700 was my max..
4)There are more IS pilots then Clan ones. In terms of lore its right. Im terms of game I see two reasons for it - a)clanners find clan tech too OP so they went "hardmode" and start play IS b)a lot of "oldschool" pilots got tired of game and take a break...

IMHO.

P.S. still a bit dissapointed - why clanners resistance so weak those days? where all organized groups? why 60% of my drops is PUG-VS-PUG while before it was 75% PUG-VS-Clan-premade?..

[PerfectDuck]

Kuritaclan, on 30 March 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

Could it be a problem of testing ground?

IS ERLL weapons, for all of their OPness and popularity are indeed bugged currently. Seems they aren't fixing it any time soon because we are able to win even though they suffer a cutoff at 1500 meters.

http://mwomercs.com/...00-m-range-bug/
http://mwomercs.com/...video-included/
http://mwomercs.com/...erll-range-bug/

It's well-known to anyone who browses the patch notes and bug reporting section of the forums. The last link has the most discussion on it, including an erroneous post by me that might have explained it, had I not been subsequently proven wrong and confirmed this is a bug.

Basically, the game engine has a maximum draw distance set for various laser weapons. Clan ERLL can be drawn further out thus they can damage beyond 1500m but every inner sphere weapon only renders to 1500m (so the beams don't infinitely chase the heavens when you fire upwards) and this has arbitrarily limited the range of ERLL to never exceed this as the laser literally doesn't exist past that range. Damage research seems to indicate that a BLR-1S with Module (911 meters optimal range) suffers linear dropoff from 911 to 1500m, doing half damage at 1205m. If it behaved like any other weapon does given quirks and modules, it should have a max falloff of 1822m and do half damage at 1366m.

Not like we need it, as we can still dominate clan snipers with well-used ERLL, but it's interesting that a bug is holding the IS back from wrecking the clans even harder.

[Lily from animove]

Der Hesse, on 28 March 2015 - 02:49 AM, said:

Nah, it´s just that NOW WE have the better pilots. That´s all. Learn to play. *rofl*

it just happened what I always said, the IS pilots that were competent didn't played CW often, suddenly they return to CW because of the free goodie, and boom Clanners get owned, because all the time the IS had the better mechs, yet they did not had the better pilots in CW. This is very visible now, because you see the IS pilots placement, and its not as stupid as before, jagers that show nearly no profile and get their shots off instead of standing fully exposed in the open.

I really like that tbh, its going to be more fun and more challanging training vs such pilots.

The cauldron born and ebon jaguar, they gonna be interesting, because they even out the field a bit with "high mounted hardpoints" but I won't be happy with them, because I favour mechs with real arms and chicken legs. So i am not going to enjoy that advantage ever.

[AlmightyAeng]

Lily from animove, on 30 March 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

it just happened what I always said, the IS pilots that were competent didn't played CW often, suddenly they return to CW because of the free goodie, and boom Clanners get owned, because all the time the IS had the better mechs, yet they did not had the better pilots in CW. This is very visible now, because you see the IS pilots placement, and its not as stupid as before, jagers that show nearly no profile and get their shots off instead of standing fully exposed in the open.

I really like that tbh, its going to be more fun and more challanging training vs such pilots.

The cauldron born and ebon jaguar, they gonna be interesting, because they even out the field a bit with "high mounted hardpoints" but I won't be happy with them, because I favour mechs with real arms and chicken legs. So i am not going to enjoy that advantage ever.

Um...the Cauldron Born and Ebon Jaguar are the same mech...and it has chicken legs. You seem confused.

[Lily from animove]

why are the attack lanes not broken now? XD

[Gyrok]

Ghost Badger, on 30 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

So, instead of complaining that you lost planets because the IS is OP...maybe you should ask yourselves:

What is -MS- doing with their Clan Wolf Mechs that you aren't? What is JFP on the Jade Falcon border doing with THEIR Clan mechs that you aren't?

Both of those units are a great fight, and get consistent wins. We had a long weekend of beating Wolf pug groups, and a number of Wolf units...but the few times we lost were to -MS- and JFP. They weren't taking bad clan mechs, and they were playing to the Clan mech advantages. Maybe ya'll should do the same. When I take a Clan mech, I know I play it differently than an IS.

We were winning our drops...in fact, only lost once all weekend while I was in group, that was to NS from Kurita.

However, if the IS is generally beating the clans, something is going on...accounting for higher skill groups winning, we still lost 44 planets as a total in spite of the great play from some units.

PerfectDuck, on 30 March 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

IS ERLL weapons, for all of their OPness and popularity are indeed bugged currently. Seems they aren't fixing it any time soon because we are able to win even though they suffer a cutoff at 1500 meters.

http://mwomercs.com/...00-m-range-bug/
http://mwomercs.com/...video-included/
http://mwomercs.com/...erll-range-bug/

It's well-known to anyone who browses the patch notes and bug reporting section of the forums. The last link has the most discussion on it, including an erroneous post by me that might have explained it, had I not been subsequently proven wrong and confirmed this is a bug.

Basically, the game engine has a maximum draw distance set for various laser weapons. Clan ERLL can be drawn further out thus they can damage beyond 1500m but every inner sphere weapon only renders to 1500m (so the beams don't infinitely chase the heavens when you fire upwards) and this has arbitrarily limited the range of ERLL to never exceed this as the laser literally doesn't exist past that range. Damage research seems to indicate that a BLR-1S with Module (911 meters optimal range) suffers linear dropoff from 911 to 1500m, doing half damage at 1205m. If it behaved like any other weapon does given quirks and modules, it should have a max falloff of 1822m and do half damage at 1366m.

Not like we need it, as we can still dominate clan snipers with well-used ERLL, but it's interesting that a bug is holding the IS back from wrecking the clans even harder.

Agreed...IS is completely dominant mathematically at range, such to the point that clan mechs have been exposed to be the weaker side of the equation, and rather than nerf the IS. I think it is time to pull back on the nerfs to clans and quirk the worst offenders of the bunch pretty strongly.

Edited by Gyrok, 30 March 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Gyrok, on 30 March 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

We were winning our drops...in fact, only lost once all weekend while I was in group, that was to NS from Kurita.

However, if the IS is generally beating the clans, something is going on...accounting for higher skill groups winning, we still lost 44 planets as a total in spite of the great play from some units.

You mean like every other similar thread on BOTH sides of the IS and Clan divide that have discussed how having a MAJORITY of players on a planet turns it regardless of how many are winning due to that extra ghost drop?

Considering that I saw an excess of 12+ IS players on every planet all weekend...I'd say that accounts for quite a bit.

If you only lost one match this weekend, how are you possibly complaining that your faction is underpowered and the IS overpowered.

If what you'd consider "good" teams are winning consistently on both factions but the number of players is the determining factor, doesn't that imply decent balance?

Edited by Ghost Badger, 30 March 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[ROSS-128]

So let me get this straight. You won every single one of your drops, but you want Clan tech buffed and IS quirks nerfed because ghost drops allowed the IS to take the planets without winning battles?

How would that solve anything? Just wait for the event to end, the IS zerg will go back to solo queue, and you'll get to enjoy Clans having tech and numbers at the same time again.

[sdsnowbum]

I think that in a complete reversal, the Clans are losing planets this weekend because they aren't defending them.

Every time I attacked it was on a Clan held planet, defended by Clan pugs.

I think all the good Clan groups were attacking, and throwing themselves against a massive numbers advantage on the defenders side.

If Clan groups had stayed home to defend they wouldn't have been overwhelmed by numbers and they wouldn't have lost so many planets.

[Summon3r]

there is zero to argue about here, this event was an utter and complete roflstomp on the clans, the numbers are the numbers.

do i think IS needs to be nerfed, NO
what i do think is the stigma of clans being OP needs to be and is over, completely.

to the guy saying he saw no 12 mans from the clans, they were all out as usual the but the shear # of people playing CW that didnt before the event pretty much left the chances of coming up against a 12 man a lottery. We had 2 12 mans going most of the weekend and rarely did we come across IS 12 mans either, i know they were out as usual though. it went both ways.

the fact is the score is what 44 to zero or maybe a 2-3. that is astounding to me.

[Novawrecker]

E Rommel, on 30 March 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

So let me get this straight. You won every single one of your drops, but you want Clan tech buffed and IS quirks nerfed because ghost drops allowed the IS to take the planets without winning battles?

How would that solve anything? Just wait for the event to end, the IS zerg will go back to solo queue, and you'll get to enjoy Clans having tech and numbers at the same time again.

Didn'tcha hear? IS mechs have quirks that promote ghost drops *nods*

[Davers]

E Rommel, on 30 March 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

So let me get this straight. You won every single one of your drops, but you want Clan tech buffed and IS quirks nerfed because ghost drops allowed the IS to take the planets without winning battles?

How would that solve anything? Just wait for the event to end, the IS zerg will go back to solo queue, and you'll get to enjoy Clans having tech and numbers at the same time again.

Exactly this. I keep hearing Clan players claiming to win almost all their battles, then asking for Clan buffs and IS nerfs. Personally, I am winning almost all my battles as a Clan pug too. Clan problems are all due to lack of coordination between units and high numbers of IS players that force us to play Counterattack all night.

[AlmightyAeng]

Summon3r, on 30 March 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

there is zero to argue about here, this event was an utter and complete roflstomp on the clans, the numbers are the numbers.

do i think IS needs to be nerfed, NO
what i do think is the stigma of clans being OP needs to be and is over, completely.

to the guy saying he saw no 12 mans from the clans, they were all out as usual the but the shear # of people playing CW that didnt before the event pretty much left the chances of coming up against a 12 man a lottery. We had 2 12 mans going most of the weekend and rarely did we come across IS 12 mans either, i know they were out as usual though. it went both ways.

the fact is the score is what 44 to zero or maybe a 2-3. that is astounding to me.

Agreed. If IS and Clans are both winning, but the sheer number of IS ends up roflstomping clans...that's not a balance issue. It's a core game mechanic issue on how CW works. BALANCE can be determined by the games themselves...and from BOTH sides you hear "my unit has been winning" and "I pug and I lose."

If all those extra IS players sitting around ghost-dropping Clan sectors or ghost-defending the counterattacks on IS worlds weren't ALLOWED to do that...I bet you'd see a far greater distribution of planets won and lost.

However, PGI then has to answer the question of "So what do all those bored people sitting around doing nothing do?"

Edited by Ghost Badger, 30 March 2015 - 11:21 AM.