455 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Darth Hotz, on 02 April 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

Just because noone mentioned this so far:

As many players noticed a whole lot of the pug clanners were driving trial clan mechs to fill up their drop decks. Still clanners have won 53% of the games. So one can argue that even the stock clan mechs in the hands of beginners are powerfull enough to get the majority of wins. So i doubt that the rest of clan mechs are as bad as many claners claim they are. Some here are just so spoiled by the overpowered Stormcrow and Timberwolf that they cant drive a "normal" mech anymore and on the same hand seem to overestimate their so called "skill".

Have you seen the current lineup of Clam trials?
Some certainly are that bad, mainly the 45 ton robot, and every light.

IS also had some of their bad trials cycled in.


Anyhow, IS mechs are the easiest for me to get 1k+ damage in. They are actually cool enough to keep pumping out damage...laughably, it also has a higher alpha than the Clan one. A "Normal" mech as you put it.

Something tells me you need to drive more than 3 of the Clam robots.

[Mystere]

Darth Hotz, on 02 April 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

Just because noone mentioned this so far:

As many players noticed a whole lot of the pug clanners were driving trial clan mechs to fill up their drop decks. Still clanners have won 53% of the games. So one can argue that even the stock clan mechs in the hands of beginners are powerfull enough to get the majority of wins. So i doubt that the rest of clan mechs are as bad as many claners claim they are. Some here are just so spoiled by the overpowered Stormcrow and Timberwolf that they cant drive a "normal" mech anymore and on the same hand seem to overestimate their so called "skill".

Some choose not to mention it because we have no actual numbers, only anecdotes.

Case in point, I have always thought that the light rush "problem" was already solved a mere 3 days or so after the release of CW via proper planning, coordination, and communication, coupled with a good helping of gunnery skills. But apparently, masses of people are still suffering from it because it is actually a very big exploit.

[Hydrocarbon]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Have you seen the current lineup of Clam trials?
Some certainly are that bad, mainly the 45 ton robot, and every light.

IS also had some of their bad trials cycled in.


Anyhow, IS mechs are the easiest for me to get 1k+ damage in. They are actually cool enough to keep pumping out damage...laughably, it also has a higher alpha than the Clan one. A "Normal" mech as you put it.

I guess to each their own. My experience has been clan mechs are the easiest to get 1k+ in, the brokencrow is the *only* mech I've been able to reach back-to-back 1k+ games with (group queue with several witnesses). Another unit member went on a free mechbay tour and fought for the clans for a few days. His CW average in IS mechs is ~2k, yet he averaged ~3k in clan mechs and topped his IS top-damage score by over 500 dmg.


BTW I did more maths with the numbers Russ posted. The numbers say clans won 53% of matches with an opponent, while IS won 44.2% of matches with an opponent (100-53=47 then subtract ghost drops for 47-2.8=44.2). That means clanners have a 20% advantage (53/44.2) in CW, which is huge. Even with their "OP mech quirks" and hordes of mercs, the IS numbers were still down that far.

So maybe the clanners saying they can do better in IS mechs simply suck using clan tech? It's okay to be bad at something; however, it is bad to be in a perpetual state of denial about it.

[Dolph Hoskins]

^ So why Hydrocarbon did you only subtract the 2.8% ghost drop rate from the IS percentage and not the Clan win % when Russ stated that that ghost drop rate was across ALL matches?

Also creating disparity between two different values of the same whole does not measure what you are trying to portray. AKA, you are manipulating %'s.

Try your salesman tricks somewhere else freebirth.

[Lord0fHats]

Yeah... That's just bad math and it's a problem when I (someone who sucks at math) can tell.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Hydrocarbon, on 02 April 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

The numbers say clans won 53% of matches with an opponent, while IS won 44.2% of matches with an opponent (100-53=47 then subtract ghost drops for 47-2.8=44.2). That means clanners have a 20% advantage (53/44.2) in CW, which is huge.

You've done some math wrong in there. The IS won 2993 games, 2.8% of that is about 84 games.

2909 / 6323 = 46%

By subtracting 2.8% from 47% you are actually subtracting about 177 (2.8% of 6323) from the 2993 IS victories.

Also, 77% of the games were IS vs Clan but we have no idea of the actual distribution of ghost drops. For arguments sake, I left your assumption that they all occurred in Clan vs IS battles.

The Ripper13, on 02 April 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

^ So why Hydrocarbon did you only subtract the 2.8% ghost drop rate from the IS percentage and not the Clan win % when Russ stated that that ghost drop rate was across ALL matches?

Despite other errors made, I think it is safe to assume that the Clans did not have ghost drops during the event, since they were so outnumbered.

Edited by Rouken, 02 April 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Hydrocarbon, on 02 April 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

I guess to each their own. My experience has been clan mechs are the easiest to get 1k+ in, the brokencrow is the *only* mech I've been able to reach back-to-back 1k+ games with (group queue with several witnesses). Another unit member went on a free mechbay tour and fought for the clans for a few days. His CW average in IS mechs is ~2k, yet he averaged ~3k in clan mechs and topped his IS top-damage score by over 500 dmg.


BTW I did more maths with the numbers Russ posted. The numbers say clans won 53% of matches with an opponent, while IS won 44.2% of matches with an opponent (100-53=47 then subtract ghost drops for 47-2.8=44.2). That means clanners have a 20% advantage (53/44.2) in CW, which is huge. Even with their "OP mech quirks" and hordes of mercs, the IS numbers were still down that far.

So maybe the clanners saying they can do better in IS mechs simply suck using clan tech? It's okay to be bad at something; however, it is bad to be in a perpetual state of denial about it.

Where the eff did you pull %20 advantage from

[Hydrocarbon]

You turds are splitting hairs to distract from the truth. W/o clairification from Russ, I was presuming the 2.8% is IS auto-wins due to there always being IS groups in queue not not always enough clanners. Considering he was talking about IS winning via ghost drops, is it really unreasonable to presume that? Regardless, w/o clairification it could be 2.7% auto-wins for clan & 0.1% for IS, vice-versa, or anything in-between.

If you want me to paint a picture that's more in-line with your "IS is OP", I'll go for it. 53% of matches vs 47% with an even amount of ghost drops is a ratio of 53/47, or precisely 12.7659574% more clan wins (it's funny how you guys can apply that to non-CW K/D & W/L ratios but not to CW numbers). Go over your drop deck and wonder if you could bolster every possible stat on every single mech to make it >12% better overall. You can also choose to nerf every single IS mech by >12.7% overall. Would that NOT change anything?? Even applying a 3% boost to clans with a 3% nerf to IS would throw MWO into absolute chaos again.

If this was 30 matchs I could see the word "insufficient sample size" coming into play, however I wouldn't consider ~70,000 man-hours insufficient (97.2% of 8140 matches, 22.2 mins average each, 24 people each match). I'm not counting the ~533 man-hours in ghost drops (12 men waiting 10 mins to run in-game for ~1.75 mins 227 times)

Look at it from a real-life perspective: what if your cash income to expenses changed by this same ratio? For every $50 you spend you now must pay $53 AND for every $50 you made at work you now make only $47. Then apply roughly the same numbers to 1750 other people at your company (70k man-hours over 5 days is equal to ~1750 people working five 8-hr shifts), some higher & some lower, but the end result a 53/47 split. People jump off bridges when inflation rates increase by 12.7%.




Call it salesman's math if you like, I call it the cold-hard truth. The truth being the clan has a clear double-digit advantage in CW and fights tooth&nail to cover it up.

Edited by Hydrocarbon, 02 April 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

- Only 2.8% of all the matches went to auto win because of no opponent. Keep in mind that 2.8% was spread out across the entire event, it would have played zero part in any successful planet flips.

He said entire event.

53- 44 is not 20% either. Stop making up numbers, this is just terribad trolling and an attempt at causing a flame war on here. Don't you run LRM boats? pretty sure you're a LRM boater.

[Apnu]

Molossian Dog, on 31 March 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

No worries, clammerz.

As soon as Paul enacts his "no islands" policy we will never have to talk about this again.
I guess it will be any moment now.

You forgot sad panda.

[Mystere]

Hydrocarbon, on 02 April 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Call it salesman's math if you like, I call it the cold-hard truth.

But that is the crux of the problem. You cannot call it that if you do not have all the necessary numbers.

[Hydrocarbon]

Then Mystere we can only take ONE thing from this since he was only crystal-clear on two numbers that apply to W/L: clan won 3330 of 8140 matches. And only one thing can be absolutely drawn from that fact: with all factors combined the clan is clearly more OP than IS. My previous posts merely deduced the percentage of OP-ness while you've shown me the happiness over-simplifying can bring. Thanks bro.

shad0w4life, on 02 April 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

53- 44 is not 20% either. Stop making up numbers, this is just terribad trolling and an attempt at causing a flame war on here. Don't you run LRM boats? pretty sure you're a LRM boater.

So lets say you have 53 kills and 44 deaths. What is your K/D ratio? 0.53-0.44=0.09? 53-44=9? 0.53/1=0.53? No, it's 53/44=1.20. 1.20 in ratios is 120% or 20% more.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Hydrocarbon, on 02 April 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Then Mystere we can only take ONE thing from this since he was only crystal-clear on two numbers that apply to W/L: clan won 3330 of 8140 matches. And only one thing can be absolutely drawn from that fact: with all factors combined the clan is clearly more OP than IS. My previous posts merely deduced the percentage of OP-ness while you've shown me the happiness over-simplifying can bring. Thanks bro.




So lets say you have 53 kills and 44 deaths. What is your K/D ratio? 0.53-0.44=0.09? 53-44=9? 0.53/1=0.53? No, it's 53/44=1.20. 1.20 in ratios is 120% or 20% more.

Out of 100 matches IS won 47, clan won 53 6% of the time they will win more, not %15.

[BARBAR0SSA]

You're arguing ratios vs percentage

What is %6 of 100, 0.06*100= 6

Out of 100 matches, 6 more will go to the clans, being a %6 advantage.

Yes you are right, %6 of 47 is 2.82 except the entire scale is based upon %100

Edited by shad0w4life, 02 April 2015 - 01:33 PM.

[Tarogato]

For the last [redacted] time, the problem is NOT GHOST DROPS!

So many people here are so clearly demonstrating that they have no clue what is going on AT ALL.

• Innersphere population rises.
  
• Innersphere queue numbers are higher than Clan queue numbers
  
• Innersphere reaches 12 people in queue before Clan does
  
• Innersphere gets to attack
  
• Innersphere reaches 24 people in queue before Clan does
  
• Innersphere gets to attack
  
• Innersphere reaches 36 people in queue before Clan does
  
• Innersphere gets to attack
  
• etc...

When the IS can field a full team before the Clan can, the IS team gets initiative while they wait for the Clanners to come available to fight them - they get assigned a zone to take control. The Clans never get an opportunity to TAKE territory because THEY ARE STUCK CONSTANTLY DEFENDING because they are late to the party. As we all know, you can't make any ground when the only thing you're allowed to do is defend.


This is why the rule is being changed so that the gamemode (invasion/counterattack) isn't selected until both teams are ready to face off. This way it will mean that even if Clans are vastly outnumbered, the matchmaker will still give them opportunities to take control of zones instead of forcing them to defend their own zones.

Figure it out, people. I'm ripping my hair out over here, and if you've ever seen a picture me, you'd know that's a hell of an event.

E Rommel, on 01 April 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

Operation Descending Spectre is over. Clans may now return to their usual schedule of easymode without having to worry about their gains being undone by ghost drops.

By the way, still wondering why 10v12 is a bad idea? Hint: the side that has to make smaller teams can do more ghost drops with the same number of people.

And as this weekend demonstrated, ghost drops are OP.

E Rommel, on 01 April 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Thing is, the IS didn't win fights to take those planets.

We spammed a lot of ghost drops using a huge zerg of trial mechs. How does ghost dropping say anything about the power of IS mechs? O_o

The Phigment, on 01 April 2015 - 08:33 PM, said:

For all the people who seem to THINK they have a clue as to what is going on, perhaps need to go back to school and re-learn rational, logical thought.

So we lost 50+ planets, gained ZERO. We won 53% of the matches mind you, but only 6300 of the 8100+ matches played were IS vs Clan.
Of the WHOLE 8100+ matches played, only 2.8% were actually ghost drops.

So you babbling monkeys are saying that this was a case of the IS having greater numbers, and not that the argument that IS mechs are superior to Clan mechs has some merit?
Hmm, funny concept since those apparently significant numbers the IS fielded still only resulted ~200 ghost drops across over 8100 matches.

Ya see where your logic fails? Try harder next time. Or better yet, save those of us with greater than single digit IQs the pain of having to read your posts.

Chocowolf, on 01 April 2015 - 11:20 PM, said:

I think this weekend reinforced something that's been a stupid mechanic ever since Day 1 of CW that mechanic being ghost dropping.

With the ques getting flooded regardless of the results of the match would be negated by the 12 mans getting the free win on the planet. Myself and the regular team I dropped with I don't believe took any losses over the entire weekend but this ghost drop mechanic proved to be OP that when we went on the Attack we were always on the defense because of the IS ques which was another significant problem that has been finally acknowledged that is a problem one I'm hoping Russ's solution will help.

Yes the pugs saw a shiny thing and got their punches in while the IS numbers were stupidly high but now that the challenge is over we can work on retaking what was lost

---

Gyrok, on 01 April 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

You make it too easy.

Splat cat = splat crow. Plus IS SRMs do more damage and have tighter spread. Meaning more of your SRMs actually land on the intended component/area of the mech.

The TW can easily be outbrawled by a Victor. AC20/MLs/SRMs do a similar alpha, runs significantly cooler and AC20 is brutal.

Gyrok... are you [a surat]? Have you ever played a Catapult? ... have you ever even... seen one?

... have you ever even seen a Stormcrow?

...

... it's called hitboxes, mate. Not to mentioned that a Stormcrow moves at 107kph...

... what [are you thinking], ... mate?

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 02 April 2015 - 02:31 PM.
Language/insults/drug reference

[Damon Howe]

Targato you're making three very important mistakes:
1) You're trying to argue logic.
2) You're trying to argue on a forum.
3) You're trying to argue with gamers.

This is the internet, this is a gaming community, and this is mwo. If you value your sanity, let the gamers complain until they're blue in the face. Point is, you'll never convince them to be happy with the game if they can't turn on "easy mode" and win, which is all most gamers look to get out of a game.

...and I'm not coming back to defend myself from "no, we're not asking for easy victories we're demanding balance because OPetcetcetc...". I think you'll make my argument for me, thank you very much.

[Tarogato]

And for the record, I've been on the Innersphere side of things ever since CW launched in December.

Right now, select combinations of IS mechs are stronger than almost everything the Clans have to offer.

I am IS and even I think our quirks are too strong. Think about that for a second.

Damon Howe, on 02 April 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

Targato you're making three very important mistakes:
1) You're trying to argue logic.
2) You're trying to argue on a forum.
3) You're trying to argue with gamers.

This is the internet, this is a gaming community, and this is mwo. If you value your sanity, let the gamers complain until they're blue in the face. Point is, you'll never convince them to be happy with the game if they can't turn on "easy mode" and win, which is all most gamers look to get out of a game.

...and I'm not coming back to defend myself from "no, we're not asking for easy victories we're demanding balance because OPetcetcetc...". I think you'll make my argument for me, thank you very much.

Bahaha, you know, you're right. =]

[Hydrocarbon]

shad0w4life, on 02 April 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

You have got to be kidding me, you're arguing ratios vs percentage

What is %6 of 100, 6

On a scale of 100 what is the difference between 53 and 47?

Yes you are right, %6 of 47 is 2.82 except the entire scale is based upon %

Out of 100 matches, 6 more will go to the clans, being a %6 advantage

If you buy something for $47 then sell it for $53, what's your profit margin?
If you have 47 family members one year then 53 the next, by what percentage did your family grow?
If your mech has an alpha strike of 53 and your friend's mech is 47, what % is yours larger by?
If your company's district sold 53 units of product and a neighboring district sold 47 units, how much % better did yours do?

The number 100 is only used because that's the agreed upon number for "a whole". When we compare 3330 matches to 6323 matches, "100" is literally thrown out the window. Now that we're not using "out of 100", tell me how much more 3330 is compared to 2993?

If you buy something for $2993 then sell it for $3330, what's your profit margin?
If you have 2993 family members one year then 3330 the next, by what percentage did your family grow?
If your mech has an alpha strike of 33.30 and your friend's mech is 29.93, what % is yours larger by?
If your company's district sold 3330 units of product and a neighboring district sold 2993 units, how much % better did yours do?

I dare you to say 6% again.

[Gyrok]

Hydrocarbon, on 02 April 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

You turds are splitting hairs to distract from the truth. W/o clairification from Russ, I was presuming the 2.8% is IS auto-wins due to there always being IS groups in queue not not always enough clanners. Considering he was talking about IS winning via ghost drops, is it really unreasonable to presume that? Regardless, w/o clairification it could be 2.7% auto-wins for clan & 0.1% for IS, vice-versa, or anything in-between.

If you want me to paint a picture that's more in-line with your "IS is OP", I'll go for it. 53% of matches vs 47% with an even amount of ghost drops is a ratio of 53/47, or precisely 12.7659574% more clan wins (it's funny how you guys can apply that to non-CW K/D & W/L ratios but not to CW numbers). Go over your drop deck and wonder if you could bolster every possible stat on every single mech to make it >12% better overall. You can also choose to nerf every single IS mech by >12.7% overall. Would that NOT change anything?? Even applying a 3% boost to clans with a 3% nerf to IS would throw MWO into absolute chaos again.

If this was 30 matchs I could see the word "insufficient sample size" coming into play, however I wouldn't consider ~70,000 man-hours insufficient (97.2% of 8140 matches, 22.2 mins average each, 24 people each match). I'm not counting the ~533 man-hours in ghost drops (12 men waiting 10 mins to run in-game for ~1.75 mins 227 times)

Look at it from a real-life perspective: what if your cash income to expenses changed by this same ratio? For every $50 you spend you now must pay $53 AND for every $50 you made at work you now make only $47. Then apply roughly the same numbers to 1750 other people at your company (70k man-hours over 5 days is equal to ~1750 people working five 8-hr shifts), some higher & some lower, but the end result a 53/47 split. People jump off bridges when inflation rates increase by 12.7%.




Call it salesman's math if you like, I call it the cold-hard truth. The truth being the clan has a clear double-digit advantage in CW and fights tooth&nail to cover it up.

Just out of curiousity...

Have you considered that the hordes of IS players over the weekend were PUGs. That if ELO had been measurable, the Clans may have had significantly higher ELO to justify a much higher win % normally...?

Groups like MS and 228th were clans all weekend, not to mention the already above average groups like CWDG/-SA-/(RA)/JGx/CK/JFP and I am sure I am missing quite a few out of that grouping of already pretty formidable teams. Considering all that talent stacked in favor of the clans, and the mega hordes of IS PUGs...

Does the thought not occur to you that the clans have all those advantages in skill and organized groups and only won 53%?

Perhaps you should consider that possibility as well, instead of being so sure of yourself that "Clamz OP"

[Gyrok]

Hydrocarbon, on 02 April 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

If you buy something for $47 then sell it for $53, what's your profit margin?
If you have 47 family members one year then 53 the next, by what percentage did your family grow?
If your mech has an alpha strike of 53 and your friend's mech is 47, what % is yours larger by?
If your company's district sold 53 units of product and a neighboring district sold 47 units, how much % better did yours do?

The number 100 is only used because that's the agreed upon number for "a whole". When we compare 3330 matches to 6323 matches, "100" is literally thrown out the window. Now that we're not using "out of 100", tell me how much more 3330 is compared to 2993?

If you buy something for $2993 then sell it for $3330, what's your profit margin?
If you have 2993 family members one year then 3330 the next, by what percentage did your family grow?
If your mech has an alpha strike of 33.30 and your friend's mech is 29.93, what % is yours larger by?
If your company's district sold 3330 units of product and a neighboring district sold 2993 units, how much % better did yours do?

I dare you to say 6% again.

Anytime you take a %, then modify it by a %, you end up with funny results...so you have to exclude 2.8% of both sides or 177 matches total.