455 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

Hydrocarbon, on 02 April 2015 - 03:05 PM, said:

If you get 53 heads and 47 tails, you get 6 more heads. The margin of difference is 6% but it's still 12.77% more heads than tails.


BTW if you want some telemetry, here's a great link showing some numbers before some of the latest quirk passes. He breaks it down into mechs near the bottom, and IMO the stats to look at is kills per mech & damage per mech.

https://mwomercs.com...s-with-science/

Spoiler: the vast majority of clan mechs beat IS mechs by a large margin in BOTH numbers. Here's another interesting conclusion: "The Clans have some under achievers. So do the IS. The trouble is, IS under achievers are LEGION, and bad Clan robots will decimate bad 'Sphere robots, any day of the week, playing with one hand tied behind their back whilst being half ****faced on pure, hallucinogenic Absinthe."

Spoiler: the Data presented is outdated. Since Quirk Pass X has come around, and changes like 3LL GH for IS.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

It does beg the question: Vindicator or Ice Fridge?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

I like the Fridge to close the gap for brawling, but the Vindicator has JJs and PPC quirks for trolling.

Is a draw for two bad mechs acceptable?

[Kiiyor]

Kuritaclan, on 02 April 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

Spoiler: the Data presented is outdated. Since Quirk Pass X has come around, and changes like 3LL GH for IS.

And even earlier than that. It was done prior to some of the Clan balance changes (CERLL duration increase etc).

I've got a metric tonne of new matches, but not a whole lot of time to put them together at the moment. I've got an SQL database set up, just need to start getting matches in there. I think I need to make smaller updates instead of one large one.

I wish there was a way to separate mech performance in the CW EOM screen. I'm really, really interested in seeing how meta heavy dropdecks compete next to... not meta.

[Aresye]

Yokaiko, on 02 April 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

Total and utter tripe.

Inorite? Absinthe totally doesn't cause hallucinations.

Pretty classy drink to sip during MWO though. Think I'll start an Absinthe Night tradition where we paint our mechs murky green, listen to classical music, and jump jet around in honor of the green fairy.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 02 April 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

I like the Fridge to close the gap for brawling, but the Vindicator has JJs and PPC quirks for trolling.

Is a draw for two bad mechs acceptable?

Science must be done. Which robot is worse.

[Tsula]

Lets look at stat and # and a flaw that was found and going to be fixed


http://mwomercs.com/...are-statistics/

[Kuritaclan]

Kiiyor, on 02 April 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

And even earlier than that. It was done prior to some of the Clan balance changes (CERLL duration increase etc).

I've got a metric tonne of new matches, but not a whole lot of time to put them together at the moment. I've got an SQL database set up, just need to start getting matches in there. I think I need to make smaller updates instead of one large one.

I wish there was a way to separate mech performance in the CW EOM screen. I'm really, really interested in seeing how meta heavy dropdecks compete next to... not meta.

I think you can not make propper statements about meta drop decks, since they are very interdependend on the 11 other players and the 12 enemys and for sure the map. Or in case someone who drop more long range specific on boreal and change on Grim into a small to mid range setup might have more chances over all to perform better. But than you have no actual drop deck what is static to compare it.

The only way from the community to may get some proper values would be a Page, where you can upload a screenshot, and algorythm indentify the data of the screenshot to put them up into a comp. of many screenshots in a rather short period between the patches to have a chance to see what might go on.

I for myself have about 200+ cw games, but they are in a timeframe since start of cw. So they would be in itself not that much comparable to say what is best to do, these stats would only say i did well over all.

Even better it would be if you have had a combat log, like in wow, so you can put up a data mining portal to compare, if the players chose to upload. I allways been a fan of a combat log, since this is the only way to get actually infos what wen't wrong.

tsula, on 02 April 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

Lets look at stat and # and a flaw that was found and going to be fixed


http://mwomercs.com/...are-statistics/

Problem with this explenation is that "somehow" the 15 slots of the planets got taken by the atkers (is), and with a 53% win chance the is as an agressor should not have taken 15 slots. Having the overwhelming numbers to force full defence, which cause that you can not fight for slot to take it back but only get into a slot with your clan-team to have some is players to slay you or not but do not change the slot is the other coin that then is the problem why those in first place 15 atk slots stayed fulltime for the atkers.

Anyhow the filling for the is was caused with the gosht drops - or if you deny that it was superior is plays over clans, what could have been stomps with 12 premade in ts vs pugs or 12 vs 12 premdes with loosing clan teams. the Holding mainly was done by the way you get the defend for the slot with sup numbers.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 03 April 2015 - 12:56 AM.

[DaFrog]

Gorgo7, on 02 April 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

Whatever...one set of stats for a weekend event.
NO conclusions may be drawn from the stats except that they may be manipulated as the user sees fit.

Cars fitted with AC that run it use 10% more fuel.
Cars driven with windows rolled down use 10% more fuel.

Do we get rid of AC or keep it?

Depends on the advocate.

At hi speed, use the ac, at low speed, lower the window.
hi speed being north of 75 kilometers an hour.

[AlmightyAeng]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

Considering the amount of quality players that were playing clans for the event, I am lead to believe the clan win % for the event was likely inflated by masses of IS pugs. As we saw very few real units during the event, and of those few units we saw, the games were usually scary close and went either way based on a bunch of variables.

Reality is, clans are not as OP as you claim, and, may in fact be underpowered depending on the unit vs PUGs numbers.

You are absolutely unbelievable dude.

IS has never had a higher win percentage than clans, ever, in any PGI event.
"Clans lost 50 planets this weekend. Clans aren't OP!"
PGI tells us Clans won 53% of their fights, and a mechanic screwed them out of planets.
"Those numbers are inflated by bad IS pilots. Clans are still underpowered!"
Posts point to the advantages of the holy trinity.
"A Splat-cat could take a Streak crow, no problem. A proper STD Victor will beat out a Timby!"

I just...I can't deal with this. It's like arguing against a 'true believer.'

Edited by Ghost Badger, 03 April 2015 - 08:03 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Ghost Badger, on 03 April 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

"A Splat-cat could take a Streak crow, no problem. "

I just...I can't deal with this. It's like arguing against a 'true believer.'

This one has a chance; RNG gods aren't very giving most of the time, especially against heavy robots.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 03 April 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

This one has a chance; RNG gods aren't very giving most of the time, especially against heavy robots.

TBH, I see more Streakcrows than Splatcats. Even with the reinforced arms... removing the side torso is still easy (or the even better option of just coring them outright).

Splatcat...

Edited by Deathlike, 03 April 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

Science must be done. Which robot is worse.

I actually have both.. the Fridges and the Vindicator (well, only the 1AA and the 1R - I'll end up using the 1AA for science™).

Too bad, I'm soooo out of practice for both.

I grinded out the Ice Ferrets when they were first released... now I have to figure out the current omnipod quirks situation....

Edited by Deathlike, 03 April 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

I actually have both.. the Fridges and the Vindicator (well, only the 1AA and the 1R - I'll end up using the 1AA for science™).

Too bad, I'm soooo out of practice for both.

I grinded out the Ice Ferrets when they were first released... now I have to figure out the current omnipod quirks situation....

Buy the special variant. Omnipod quirk 5% less suck.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 03 April 2015 - 12:08 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ghost Badger, on 03 April 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

Buy the special variant. Omnipod quirk 5% less suck.

In the case of the Prime, 25% less suck.

[Deathlike]

Ghost Badger, on 03 April 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

Buy the special variant. Omnipod quirk 5% less suck.

lol no. I've mastered them all... I don't need a 4th Fridge (I'll buy the omnipods first thing on release).

Mcgral18, on 03 April 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

In the case of the Prime, 25% less suck.

[Tarl Cabot]

• 
  
  
  
  
  

  Quote

  • 
    
  • Innersphere population rises.
    
  • Innersphere queue numbers are higher than Clan queue numbers
    
  • Innersphere reaches 12 people in queue before Clan does
    
  • Innersphere gets to attack
    
  • Innersphere reaches 24 people in queue before Clan does
    
  • Innersphere gets to attack
    
  • Innersphere reaches 36 people in queue before Clan does
    
  • Innersphere gets to attack
    
  • etc...
    
    
    
    

Just to add a tad more to it, the info PGI provided is just general info without details, there are no details on how many planets the Clans attacked but they at least defended 50 planets. How many planets did they hold the IS forces per interval?



http://mwomercs.com/...are-statistics/

IS forces, due to greater numbers, had forces ready more often that not while Clan forces, once finished with a match would drop back in and have a drop ready for them once they have their 12 pilots. Remember IS forces are already formed with the 10 minute countdown.

1. Clans attack a planet while IS defends said planet with greater numbers. Clans gain some ground but due to the CW setup they start having to defend the ground they just won, which becomes counter attack for IS. By the end of the session the Clans had more defensive drops, win/lose than they had assault drops, win/lose, thus could never exceed the 53% threshold to turn the planet.

2. IS attacks a planet while the Clans defend said planet with lesser numbers. Clans are primarily on defense the entire time, winning some and losing some but generally had fewer counter attacks to take back lost ground. Eventually IS forces would win enough to take said planet and keep it.

If IS forces, in general, had been more aware of this mechanic, this CW event would have been even more of an apocalyptic event for the clans as they could have lost even more worlds. The only way the Clans could have countered this would have been to NOT drop to defend planets, to only attack specific planets with overwhelming forces, thus allowing those IS players to run the timer or get bored and drop that launch.

Is not the above not a fair assessment of what happened? If the new fix PGI is putting in was in effect, are they able to approximate how many planets each side would have win/lost each interval? The % difference does not say enough.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 03 April 2015 - 07:27 PM.

[Gyrok]

Ghost Badger, on 03 April 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

You are absolutely unbelievable dude.

IS has never had a higher win percentage than clans, ever, in any PGI event.
"Clans lost 50 planets this weekend. Clans aren't OP!"
PGI tells us Clans won 53% of their fights, and a mechanic screwed them out of planets.
"Those numbers are inflated by bad IS pilots. Clans are still underpowered!"
Posts point to the advantages of the holy trinity.
"A Splat-cat could take a Streak crow, no problem. A proper STD Victor will beat out a Timby!"

I just...I can't deal with this. It's like arguing against a 'true believer.'

Seriously...you have to consider the evidence over the entirety of this.

In all of the previous scenarios, Clans typically had significantly higher ELO. This was not speculation, PGI provided us that information, and all previous tests, where elo was tracked, had the same results for elo comparison.

In this scenario, elo was not measured, though we do know that 2 of the largest, and most talented mercenary units in the game were playing clans during this time frame. Add in the large number of house units for Clans that played, and many of them being above average skill...and you can start to see that perhaps 53% win percentage may be less than what elo would have predicted if they had been tracking it.

Without that data, and assuming that all previous events have the same general consensus as the one we just ran...then clans should have theoretically won more than they did.

I am not being obtuse about this, I am looking at the entire picture.

[MischiefSC]

Clans had a higher Elo in that instance because it was people who had bought the Clan packages only at that time.

Also Clans had been around for a while and were, in their early days, wonky crazy OP. of course they were winning more playing them. 1,000 drops in my TW made playing any IS heavy almost impossible for me for a while.

So with as much as 480 less tons in the field and brutally inferior trial mechs the Clans still won over 50% of their matches.

I get that you want to believe that the real issue is just that all clan pilots are, on average, better than IS pilots, it flat out isn't true. Who are the top comp tier mercs again? QQ, 228, MS, who else? Where were they all? Oh yeah. They were almost universally in IS.

If anything the IS had a significantly higher Elo per drop than the Clans did -

and Clans still had a higher win percentage.

The nerf to Clan XLs so that you get all the perks of an XL until you lose a ST, then it works like a STD should help. There will probably be other nerfs. I absolutely understand how having a significant advantage and having it whittled out from under you until you're on average balanced is frustrating. I'm all for the Clan bad mechs (and IS bad mechs) getting brought up to be in line with their uber kinsmen. However ton for ton, mech for mech the IS and Clans need to be balanced or the whole concept falls apart (no, you don't get to create a game environment where 1 side is the uber superheros with powered armor and the other side is the expendable scrubs with stone spears and expect the scrub side to happily field more players than the uber superhero side) and that's exactly what PGI has said they were going to do out of the gate.

We need to balance Clan and IS overall, mech to mech ton to ton so there's no 10 ton or 15 ton or whatever 'advantage' and each side drops their 240 and it comes down to skill and coordination.

Right now you're playing with a handicap. I know you don't want to believe that but you are. You're getting an advantage and playing in better mechs than your opponents. Your whole side is. That doesn't mean you're not a good player and there are not some great players for the Clans - it means however that you're playing with an advantage.

You need to be willing to give that up or you're just going to get more and more frustrated and for no good reason. PGI has all the telemetry. They could provide you the relative Elo of the players I have no doubt - it doesn't take rocket science to figure it out though. Almost all the mobile comp teams of players were in the IS and as a statistical percentage they are going to skew the IS average skill level higher.

Clan mechs are, on average, still a little OP. It needs balanced out so ton for ton, mech for mech they are balanced. PGI is still working on that, it's been almost a year now but they're working on it. Nobody likes to give up their handicap but it's about time.

[mxlm]

MischiefSC, on 03 April 2015 - 09:56 PM, said:

Clan mechs are, on average, still a little OP. It needs balanced out so ton for ton, mech for mech they are balanced. PGI is still working on that, it's been almost a year now but they're working on it. Nobody likes to give up their handicap but it's about time.

Well, no. Two are clearly OP, one is probably OP (DWF), one is probably not but people keep saying it is (HBR). The rest? Nope.

Although that looks set to change with Wave III; EJ and AC sure look like they're going to be OP. Jury's out on SC and EXE

[Chocowolf Sradac]

I'd say there are balancing issues on the IS side as well specifically some mechs and the quirks they have

example a Dragon shouldn't be able to core out and kill any clan mech in under 5 seconds. Granted the 1N has all it's weapons in one arm and any pilot that's been around would immediately try to remove him of that arm but the DPS that punches out is too high.

Clans were supposed to have superior range but that got changed.