116 replies to this topic

[Burktross]

Soy, on 30 March 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

ignoring other derps to be honest, but...

<3 I love you too, Soy.

Also, obligatory K-Town warning, all. Get in before the move.

[Davers]

Alistair Winter, on 30 March 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

Did you make that calculation with some arbitrary numbers in your head or did you leave room for some variables that can be manipulated?


At this point, I have to wonder if you're actually trolling. As long as the costs are in proportion to the rewards, it doesn't matter whether that single player campaign had different missions with different rewards.

Ok…

The economy in this game is a joke, and has no correlation to the effectiveness of the equipment. There is no reason the IS LB-10X should be the most expensive ballistic weapon. XL engines are hardly an upgrade on many mechs, and have all but disappeared on mechs heavier than 35 tons. FF costs more to repair than regular armour- as if we needed another reason not to use it.

R&R is just a tax. A tax that can be negated with real money.

R&R does not fit in MWO. MWO isn't designed that way. There is no 'hold off on using your expensive mechs for the important battles' since no battle is actually more impactful than any other.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 30 March 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

There are other games with R&R even though they're not single player games.

As for clear end, I fail to see how that's relevant at all. Yeah, it sucks that we don't have proper missions, but a fair number of MW2:Mercs missions were just search and destroy missions or defend missions. The lack of objectives is about as relevant to the discussion of R&R as the low number of maps.

Yes, but is that R&R actually successful game wise. The only one I can even think of that has a legitimate argument is EVE, but even then the focus isn't so much on balanced combat that is more about minimizing/capitalizing on mistakes and more on the metagame of it all. Really combining EVE and MWO would just make this game even more niche than it already is and I doubt would do well in attracting new players and would certainly lose a decent portion of the community in doing so (like myself).

I made the point about clear end, because in single player games, at some point you start over. Making a costly mistake might just set you back a few hours and it costs you nothing but a little of time to get back to where you were. This game is different, it has no clear set end other than continue to grind, starting over would mean you didn't just waste time, but a good chunk of us just wasted real life money (which can be translated to time as well, but at a higher rate). Now I'm not saying R&R would mean we would have to start over, all I'm saying is that a mistake that costs you both a loss/death in game, and also sets you back in progression or access of content is absurd. Even ignoring the fact that access of content and R&R would be tied together currently, it also means you are artificially limiting access to not just a certain game mode, but on of the whole selling points of this game. You are increasing not only the bar of entry, but increasing bar of continued play within that game mode.

Alright, maybe I had nothing with that addition, I really got lost in thought somewhere in there.

Sorry but R&R will always be similar to the "energy" bars of facebook games that limit how much you can play in a day unless you pay real money. This is also ignoring the glaring issue with skill and certain mechs being OP. The one thing you should never limit is the ability to play a certain style of game based on skill (or add a monetary way to avoid such limits) nor should you ever allow some sort of economy to act as some sort of great balancer because that system is flawed as well.

[Alistair Winter]

Soy, on 30 March 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

Imo, MWO is one of the least effected FPS by ping. It's not a twitch game. These people should go try and play old Unreal Tourny with 500 ping on some lunar server; gg.

I don't think most MWO players have actually played other competitive PVP FPS games. This forum is full of arguments about features that would never work in MWO because it's an online PVP game, completely ignoring the fact that much bigger and better games out there have those exact features.

"We can't have public Elo ranks in MWO because no good FPS PVP game has ever had public Elo ranks!"
"What about CounterStrike?"
"Totally different, because... it didn't have mechs. Or heat sinks."

Soy, on 30 March 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

Btw every single ******* time I see your location I think of your boy:
Ima make a habit of quoting songs at him when we speak.

Would go over my head, I'm afraid.

You should quote this song.

[Soy]

Burktross, on 30 March 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

9000x

Btw Alistairs 2 first paragraphs above are why I opened the way I did in this thread. Sometimes I gotta let it out and chop heads, need to make example sometime.

Edited by Soy, 30 March 2015 - 05:03 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 30 March 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

I have 3 possible explanations, given the arguments I just responded to.

1) CounterStrike is not an online multiplayer game where you're actually competing with other players.
2) CounterStrike has a clear end goal and is not an arena shooter like MWO.
3) Ping is not a factor in CounterStrike as in MWO.

I think you misinterpret what I argue for because I definitely consider CS to be an arena shooter which is a competitive online game and ping is a factor.

Not sure what how bringing up CS has anything to do with R&R....maybe we have different ideas of how R&R would function I guess.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 30 March 2015 - 05:09 PM.

[InRev]

What I think is hilarious is the fact that Soy still has it out for FupDup. I remember him rage-poasting at Fup more than 2 years ago about something equally inane. (I think it was machineguns, maybe?)

PS: Autism is a potentially serious disorder and should never be used as an insult. That's as bad as using homophobia, misogyny or racism as a personal attack and usually means you're a total basic bro tool

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

You've said a few times that you would really like RnR, at least for CW, so that is kinda similar to asking for it.



You haven't done much countering of my arguments, so it's hard to call them paper thin. You have however called me autistic at least twice, but that doesn't really count.



You keep using buzzwords like "risk vs reward" and "dynamic" but you haven't really explained how those words fit the game feature we're talking about. You've just kept saying something to the effect of "But brah, it's totes risk and reward man!" (paraphrased).



RnR doesn't cause "immersion," it's just an extra line on your end-of-match report but subtracting from your total instead of adding to it.

A strange choice of insults, since High Functioning Autistics are usually very organized and fact/detail oriented, and thus, would generally be in a superior position in most debates.

[Soy]

If Fup was, legit, then I'd apologize if he was actually offended; I don't think he is, and he's not offended. Cuz he knows I'm just a guy talking **** on a video game forum about meaningless stuff.

[FupDup]

Burktross, on 30 March 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

<3 I love you too, Soy.

Also, obligatory K-Town warning, all. Get in before the move.

Soy, on 30 March 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

If Fup was, legit, then I'd apologize if he was actually offended; I don't think he is, and he's not offended. Cuz he knows I'm just a guy talking **** on a video game forum about meaningless stuff.

Half and half. I wouldn't say offended so much as getting a tad impatient having to rehash the same stuff over and over. I was basically trying to actually have a "srs bsnss" debate (well, up until I started talking about your face that is ).

InRev, on 30 March 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

What I think is hilarious is the fact that Soy still has it out for FupDup. I remember him rage-poasting at Fup more than 2 years ago about something equally inane. (I think it was machineguns, maybe?)

PS: Autism is a potentially serious disorder and should never be used as an insult. That's as bad as using homophobia, misogyny or racism as a personal attack and usually means you're a total basic bro tool

I think the original war we had was over Seismic.

[Bloodweaver]

Oh, I would ask for so, SO much more.

[Deathlike]

Davers, on 30 March 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

Ok…

The economy in this game is a joke, and has no correlation to the effectiveness of the equipment. There is no reason the IS LB-10X should be the most expensive ballistic weapon. XL engines are hardly an upgrade on many mechs, and have all but disappeared on mechs heavier than 35 tons. FF costs more to repair than regular armour- as if we needed another reason not to use it.

R&R is just a tax. A tax that can be negated with real money.

R&R does not fit in MWO. MWO isn't designed that way. There is no 'hold off on using your expensive mechs for the important battles' since no battle is actually more impactful than any other.

Well, I don't have a problem with the concept of R&R, but it should be more geared as a better or reworked reward system.

The greatest problem with any system is mostly figuring out how one is supposed to be rewarded. Mind you, there will probably be abuses of the system, but such a system has to be worked out and tested by the masses with a certain level of feedback. Only then, is when you can have a successful system (I mean, it could be worked out properly when planned out - it's just that up to this point, it's hard to assume PGI will work this out like they did the first time).

Punishing people that tank in combat effectively is in itself a potential problem... but if a player properly does torso twisting to improve his own TTK, then it should be rewarded.

However, it's hard to properly qualify or even quantify how effective that tanking is. If you take small bits of damage because you're a sniper trading shots, it's a bit different from some Atlas trying to absorb all sorts of damage before going down.

It's not as simple as it should be, so there's a lot of factors involved that need to be worked out in detail... and it would actually take TIME AND EFFORT.

Good luck with the idea, but I've often said in these discussions is that PGI really should try to implement it in an opt-in manner to play around with numbers until it is ready (hopefully not by MWO's "beta" standards").

Edited by Deathlike, 30 March 2015 - 06:00 PM.

[Soy]

FupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

I think the original war we had was over Seismic.

You tried to front in my Seismic thread about how it ruined lights in tarting heyday (lol yeah bro it wasnt seismic it was all the ppfld tarting), in which I correctly prognosticated about how it was an instant classic ***ist module and didn't care about its power cuz I assumed they'd put in a soft counter (they didn't, they made it require stationary, same thing tho [nerf]):

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2369296

Edited by Soy, 30 March 2015 - 06:16 PM.

[FupDup]

Soy, on 30 March 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

You tried to front in my Seismic thread about how it ruined lights in tarting heyday (lol), in which I correctly prognosticated about how it was an instant classic ****** module and didn't care about its power cuz I assumed they'd put in a soft counter (they didn't, they made it require stationary):

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2369296

I thought that my original complaint was that it pooped on sneaky/brawly people in general by making it easier for static players to know when there's somebody stalking them ("My Spidey Seismic sense is tingling!"). Lights were one of the mech types hit by it, but they weren't the only ones.

For the record, I actually bought my first ever MC package for the single and only purpose of converting XP to GXP to unlock it faster, so that's a testament to just how crazytown it was (and still is to a lesser extent). I've used it on all of my robots ever since, without exception. I've only not used when I just forget to like a derp, which maybe happened about 4-5 times?

Otherwise it's Seismic all day erryday for me. It's just so powerful that I don't even remember how to play without it. I crutch it pretty hard. If you forced me to permanently give up all of my modules except one, I would choose to keep Seismic. I wouldn't even blink or hesitate with the answer, because it's such a gamechanger.

[Soy]

No doubt man. That's a good thread, lil newbs should read up on it.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I thought that my original complaint was that it pooped on sneaky/brawly people in general by making it easier for static players to know when there's somebody stalking them ("My Spidey Seismic sense is tingling!"). Lights were one of the mech types hit by it, but they weren't the only ones.

For the record, I actually bought my first ever MC package for the single and only purpose of converting XP to GXP to unlock it faster, so that's a testament to just how crazytown it was (and still is to a lesser extent). I've used it on all of my robots ever since, without exception. I've only not used when I just forget to like a derp, which maybe happened about 4-5 times?

Otherwise it's Seismic all day erryday for me. It's just so powerful that I don't even remember how to play without it. I crutch it pretty hard. If you forced me to permanently give up all of my modules except one, I would choose to keep Seismic. I wouldn't even blink or hesitate with the answer, because it's such a gamechanger.

Yes... it's the only crutch I haven't stopped using.

Technically every other module can go eff itself. That's how powerful Seismic is.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 30 March 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

Yes... it's the only crutch I haven't stopped using.

Technically every other module can go eff itself. That's how powerful Seismic is.

Radar Derp is the only one that comes close, but IMO Radar Derp is a tad bit more situational (namely against missiles) whereas Seismic is more globally useful outside of pure sniper wars (which don't really happen that much).

I also think that the "magnitude" of Seismic's effect is higher than the "magnitude" of what Radar Derp does. Knowing when people are around you is SUPER useful and stuff...

Edited by FupDup, 30 March 2015 - 06:26 PM.

[Soy]

I break the match in half with Seismic in SPL Nova in a lot of maps/situations.

Without it I'd die basically instantly all the time in that build otherwise.

It's still Lord.

[FupDup]

Soy, on 30 March 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

I break the match in half with Seismic in SPL Nova in a lot of maps/situations.

Without it I'd die basically instantly all the time in that build otherwise.

It's still Lord.

I definitely don't dispute it's Lordiness, I just think it's a bit too Lordy.

It currently looks something like this:

[Lightfoot]

R N R didn't work, players just used mechs with no armor except the CT and made out like bandits.

I assume we will get faction based rewards for our mechs at some point during the CW Beta.