263 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Damage from even pulse lasers spreads most the time unless the target is standing still and often the attacker needs to be as well.

Ballistic PPFLD all hits the same location, every single time. Hill humping or hoverjet poptarting lets that get exploited. The problem currently is that due to different travel times and questionable accuracy (due to lower projectile speed) it's not a reliable enough way to put damage on target to warrant the heat.

Most poptart builds hit heatcap in about 3 shots. It was still optimal.

Clanner laservomit happened because Clan ACs were not PPFLD and ERPPCs were too hot to boat.

Clanners will always be laservomit because they have no solid low heat ballistics save the Gauss, though you still see ERPPC+Gauss builds on Dires and TWs. Why?
Because PPFLD is, all other things being equal, superior to DoT.

Making PPCs better than lasers means they trump lasers.

The ability to peek for a fraction of a second and put your full damage in a single location on a single hit location on a sprinting Firestarter is always better than lasers. Always, always have been and always will be.

Pretending that a small heat change or refire delay change or the like somehow affects this is crazy.

What you say is pretty hypothetical and is true for maybe a range of 600m. A laser can still hurt me on 1200m - a PPC can't if I am aware that the enemy is there.

[CptGier]

Bush Hopper, on 05 April 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

What you say is pretty hypothetical and is true for maybe a range of 600m. A laser can still hurt me on 1200m - a PPC can't if I am aware that the enemy is there.

PPCs wont even hit you, much less hurt you at 600m...

[LordKnightFandragon]

PGI should also lower the GHost heat penalty on PPCs from 7 to like 4 or 5...

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 05 April 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

PGI should also lower the GHost heat penalty on PPCs from 7 to like 4 or 5...

That is a great idea. Don't see why it needs to be so large.

Mischief, the dual gauss dual erppc Dire build exists, but it is completely outclassed by the laser vomit + dual guass build.

You also have to remember that now that we have all these laser quirks, it is even less likely that a PPC-only meta will return just from a minor velocity change. PPCs will still not be very fast at 1100-1200. The ER versions would be but they are so hot they won't sustain DPS well. Why is it too much to ask to be able to compete with lasers OR PPCs? Is balance too much to ask for?

[Novawrecker]

CptGier, on 05 April 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

PPCs wont even hit you, much less hurt you at 600m ...

Er ... this depends on 2 (3 really) things: What mech is the PPC being shot from. What mech the PPC is shooting into (and 3rd: Pilot awareness). Certain quirked mechs will fire a (ER)PPC at such sufficient velocity that it will hit (and hurt) at 600m. This becomes more difficult if one is shooting a nimble mechs (and pilot awareness kicks in as well). But saying PPCs won't hit (or hurt) anyone at 600m is a major misnomer.

Edited by Novawrecker, 06 April 2015 - 05:03 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 April 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

Dang, good thing for spoilers, cuz yes, that would be a CF, TLDR...

But I want an Energy based AC10? It would obsolete AC10?

Maybe, PPC has better range, better long term sustainability, but what ACs have is a heat advantage, which counts for more then one can know. MWO doesnt make it matter much, but heat is a killer, managing your heat well is a skill that needs to be mastered or you die. Ever played Wizkids MW boardgame MW: AOD? That game heat management was almost as key to survival as oxygen. Shutting down, 8/10 times meant certain death of that mech in very short order, typically the next turn.

ACs might not have amazing range, or velocity,

they might have ammo issues, they may weigh alot, but they have low heat, and if this game had a worthwhile heat system, one would see why its such a huge advantage over any PPC. And while a CERPPC properly done would be 12t, 26dmg, it requires added heatsinks much in the same way the AC10 requires ammo for it to work.

So the AC10 maybe 12t and have 6t of ammo alongside it, the AC10 can fire any time it is ready, until ammo runs dry. It isnt limited by heat for all intents and purposes.

Spoiler

But this game doesn't have that idyllic worthwhile heat system and is even less likely to get it than adjusted PPC behavior. I'd love to totally revamp the game's mechanics, but it isn't going to happen. PPC adjustment can and probably will, though, so we focus on that.

In current balance, ACs are incredibly heavy for only a marginal benefit. The main game is all about the alpha-strike, less so the DPS. We fire from cover, then retreat back to let our weapons cycle and cool off. The AC/10 is already considered obsolete at that type of play in face of the fantastic firepower-per-ton on lasers. It weighs 12 (!) tons. You still need ammo for it, so that's another two to four tons for longevity. So now you have a single 10-damage weapon system that weighs a total of 14-16 tons, occupies 9-11 crit-slots, can't fire forever, has a very slow projectile, and has the reach of a standard large laser. To wit, it also generates three heat per shot, which is enough to be a problem when combined with lasers.

Quote

A Single ERPPC, much less 2 or 3 requires almost an AC10+ammo equivalent weight in DHS to support them or you will simply not be able to sustain enough fire on target to warrant carrying them. PPD or not, while the AC10 is dealing 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, gaining maybe 20% heat, that PPC is 10, 15 heat, 10, 15 heat, 10, 15 heat....and now your riding red line on heat, having to stop to cool off, while the AC10 is steady, 10, 10, 10....

So while in essence, I kinda do just want an energy AC10, THere are still disadvantages that would keep it from being OP.

Spoiler

A single PPC, in comparison, requires itself and two DHS to be viable, assuming your 'Mech has an engine larger than 250. That's 9 tons. That's a smaller investment in both weight and crit-slots over the 60-round AC/10. In exchange, you get longer range and infinite ammo. Sure, you've got heat, but heat can be gotten rid of at any time you want. Tonnage cannot. By going with PPC, you've also saved enough room for other weapons.

So, really, you can take an AC/10 and a gaggle of small lasers or you can take a PPC and a gaggle of medium lasers. I don't know about you, but I choose the latter in most cases. I do have one AC/10 JagerMech, but I use it as a DPS machine with its super-quirked ballistic rate of fire making a pair of AC/10 fire faster than a single AC/5. As you can see, I make significant sacrifices in speed and armor. I could easily make a build like this with 2xERPPC, 2xMedLas, and 4x MG and be just as effective as un-quirked AC/10 would be in the role I play it.

Quote

As for PPC/Gauss mechs, ive spectated a few......its KAPOW...shut down.....KAPOW....shut down...KAPOW, shutdown....yeah, seems effective right? hardly....

Spoiler

What was the 'Mech, who was driving it, and did it have any other weapons? No proper PPC+Gauss build should be doing that.

Quote

I get you want an indepth redo for energy weapons. I am more thinking along the lines of what PGI could do in game now to fix them and make them atleast somewhat viable, and even with any of my proposed changes at this stage in MWO, would only bump PPCs out of extinction and put them on the map as weapons you could maybe get and use.

Cuz really, you have the option of(IS)
ERPPC: 10/12, 1200ms, 4s CD
LPL: 11/7, hit scan, 0.67s beam duration, 3.25s CD

which one is anyone more likely to take? Sure, the PPC is PPD, but it will be way out done by the LPL. Sure, ERPPC has range on the LPL, but in the dynamic of MWO, range is fairly pointless most times, as battles devolve into sub 500m brawls, where the LPL is going to out do the PPC badly. Even a IS ERLL or ISLL would do the PPC....then if you want a normal PPC, that thing is useless under 90m.....

Hell, in just the last 2 days, I took my Warhawk from it's 4x CERPPC build, Lv5 ERPPC CD mod
to
4x LPL, Lv5 CD and Range mod for LPL.

I have gotten 11 kills in 3 games, my KDR in that mech is in the positive, ive jacked avg dmg from 350-380, just today had a game of over 720dmg, 3k, 7a and a win. score of 105, yesterday, 4k, a loss, but had a score of 106. It convinces me in my mind PPCs are just completely ****, useless weapons. There is no doubt in my mind PPCs need a buff, velocity, speed, heat buff, damage buff...just buff the ***** things. PPD or not, they are useless.

My best CERPPC game was probably during Clan release on PTS in June was it? I got like 1 kill, 600 dmg and a win, and this was before ERPPC got speed nerfed. Since that time, the best ive done with CERPPC build is maybe 490 dmg, I might have broke 500 once or twice, and my kills have been creeping up so slow, 1 kill every number of games, despite me unloading volley after volley of CERPPC right dead center on stripped and injured mechs....Due to the heat and damage **** of CERPPC, ive been unable to kill atleast 4 mechs I could liekly give you the example right here.

Spoiler

Which one of those I take depends enormously on what 'Mech I'm driving and whether or not it's a CW match. I take LPL in normal matches because I play close-range in normal matches like most people seem to do. Very rarely will you find me engaging targets in a normal match below 400 meters. If it's CW, I'll take the ERPPCs because I am not too shabby at aiming them and it allows me to seriously gimp the Clan 'Mechs using C-ERLL by popping from cover, firing, and then rolling away the remaining 0.6 seconds on the laser burn..

And I don't just put them on my Thud. I put them on my BLR-3M and CPLT-K2 as well, neither of which is sporting any energy or ERPPC buffs that most of the rest of the IS don't also have.

So yes, PPCs as they are now are a tad too hot and a tad too slow, but they have their uses if you play a certain way.

As for the Warhawk, the C-LPL is point-and-shoot because it is a laser. I expect anybody with experience to be able to just pick it up and do well with it within its performance envelope because it doesn't offer any steep complications. The PPC, however, is not an LPL. It shouldn't even be used in the same scenario. People talk about how something is useful in "the majority of cases" and I think that is a bit disingenuous. You are just as responsible for setting up your combat zone as much as the enemy and environment are. If you have PPCs, you should not be under 500 meters from the target and you should not be visible. It's up to you to maintain battlefield awareness and maintain those conditions. It's also up to you to choose a 'Mech that allows you to do that. The Warhawk, sadly, ain't it. Better options include Blackjacks, Vindicators, Summoners, Jagermechs, Hellbringers, Panthers, and even the Urban Mech.

If the C-LPL suits your preferred style of play, that's awesome. I'm happy you like it! It does not mean the PPC should be altered to also fit that style. It's a different weapon with different benefits and different limitations, and should always be maintained as such.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Well lol, thing about trying to stay at range with a PPC, it just doesnt happen, since you can move all you want, but eventually the enemy is going to get in on you. Most battles take place much closer then that as a whole. PPCs are terrible overall. Sure, you can make them work in some situations, but as they are as a whole, are terrible.

I dont want a PPC to fit my style, I want a PPC to be a weapon that is actually somewhat feared. Besides the psychological effect of being hit by the weapon, it being a PPC and knowing in other mech games PPCs are deadly, they are a joke. Ive been rolling between the LPL and CERPPC build on the Warhawk, ive got Range 5 and CD 5 LPL, but only ERPPC CD 5, range seems pointless. But the performances are vastly different.

With the LPL, ive gotten like 18 kills or so with it in like 6 games. ERPPC build? Ive gotten like 26 kills in over 30 games....

Sure, when CW first came out, I did rack up a bevy of kills, if those counted, I would have prolly 60-70 kills on my Warhawk vs the 42 its at now, and yes, they were done alot with CERPPC, but they were mostly finishing blows. The LPL can duke it out and maintain blow for blow with other weapons. PPCs get out DPSd at range, they get out heated and DPSd up close. Their speed at range seriously hampers their own ability.

Its like High velocity ammo in Planetside 2. You get HVA to improve your weapon speed and ability at distance, but the side effect of HVA is more recoil, whcih makes it harder to keep the gun on target at distance. PPCs are in that boat. To much heat, not enough damage, not enough speed and are terrible both at their own game and every other.

IM not really arguing the PPC not fitting my style. I am arguing the PPC is just a bad weapon. Even with quirks on the Warhawk, the heat is nice, it allows me to crack of a few more shots a little bit quicker, but the issue is more the PPC itself then the Warhawk using them.

You say the AC10 is obsolete? You know why? Lasers got buffed so heavily.

Lasers are light weight, easy to boat, hit scan, very accurate, unlimited ammo, deal more damage then they give heat now and the game has 2x ranges, so even a MPL can be used well into the AC10s range, medium Clan lasers and such even further yet.

AC10 is slow velocity, ammo dependant, only deals 10 dmg and is heavy. I can see why its not ideal. Its more an issue with the other weapons being buffed so heavily vs the AC10 being a bad weapon. AC10 is a fine gun, its just obsoleted by PGI and their odd balance methods.

PPC is just a bad weapon. You cant effectively brawl withit, you cant effectively snipe with it, about the best you cna do with it is follow your buddies and fire sporadically at guys they are shooting.....PPC< the altime deadliest energy weapon in BTech is relegated to little more then a fire support weapon....

I would go sit at 500m with PPCs, but the thing is, that would leave me alone off on a hill, lights eat solo mechs and PPCs cant beat a light, PPCs are to slow to even begin to hit a light, plus im in a WHK, kinda slow vs lights to begin with., I prefer to stay among the company of my side.

PPC, bottom line, need buffs. THey are bad....one can argue how you can learn to adapt and use them, but as a whole, they are terrible.

[Y E O N N E]

I think there's some misunderstanding going on here, perhaps due to the length of this conversation.

I'm not disagreeing that the PPC needs some form of fixing. They certainly do.

What I am disagreeing with are the proposed changes by you and others with similar ideas, because they make the gun too easy. All those changes do is make the gun easier to use, but not more effective in an absolute sense. An easy and powerful gun becomes a prolific gun. A gun feared for its proliferation is not being feared for the right reason. Instead, if you see somebody equipped with PPCs, it should strike fear into you because you know that pilot knows how to use their power to devastating effect. It's not doing that right now, and that's because it is too hot and its projectile is too slow, but simply buffing both of those characteristics is not the answer.

You bring up Planetside 2. More speed in exchange for recoil. Awesome. We should have recoil in MWO, and that would be the perfect thing to differentiate the PPC from lasers while the infinite ammo differentiates it from AC. But we don't have that. So say we buff the heat and speed on the PPC so it is internally balanced, and now it is "feared" and every Joe Schmoe has one because it is instant damage, high-velocity, and lower heat. Now, nobody ever takes an AC/10 ever again. What is your solution to that? Drop the weight on the AC/10? Because weight is the reason it's obsolete, not lasers. It's obsolete because a mere two tons gives you a weapon that does twice the damage and because regular PPCs have almost the same performance characteristics.They were obsolete when PPCs were only 8 heat, they were obsolete when PPCs were 10 heat and traveled at 1500 m/s, and they are obsolete now. Why would I build a Blackjack with an AC/10 and four MedLas and a squishy XL when I can just play around with some stuff to get an AC/20 in exchange for one less laser, or when I can build one with a PPC and four MedLas and a STD and fire just as fast, just as cool, with a bonus JJ? I wouldn't. Nobody would, unless he really likes the sound an AC/10 makes (understandable, it sounds pretty awesome).

The better solution to un-obsolete the AC/10 is to introduce a quirk to the PPC's behavior that differentiates it, that makes it not a point-and-click "I win" button like the LPL or AC/10 (on the occasion that you do take one). That's why I suggested what I did: It keeps it interesting without really gimping it. Joe Average will suck with the gun, as well he should, but the practiced players will be able to take advantage of its FLD nature to whittle away at laser-wielders at range, because laser-wielders are face-tankers and can't handle fast, distant objects providing tiny windows of opportunity and taking pot-shots.

And yes, you can hold them out at range. You can't do it in a Warhawk (and I said as much last post), but you can do it in any Light, most Mediums, and a few heavies. Just because it comes with four PPCs, doesn't mean the Warhawk should actually be good with them. It's a stupid build in lore and a stupid build in this game. Wasted potential. You need speed to fully capitalize on the benefits of front-loaded damage anyway, with laser damage being so high, which means even a corrected PPC needs it.

So, basically, I agree that the PPC needs help, but it's not enough to just speed up the projectile and lower its heat. We've already got several weapons in this game that don't really get used and haven't been popular for long time (MG, Flamer, LB-X, AC/10). The PPC's lack of popularity is a fairly recent phenomenon, and it returning it to a state similar to its pre-nerf form is just going to put it right back into popularity again. Maybe it won't be as dominating with quirks and Clan lasers, but it also won't fix any sort of balance issues. We all need to, honestly, stop complaining to PGI about individual weapons and, instead, try to get them to do a more comprehensive review of the entire set, because the whole thing is completely out of whack.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 April 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

I think there's some misunderstanding going on here, perhaps due to the length of this conversation.

I'm not disagreeing that the PPC needs some form of fixing. They certainly do.

What I am disagreeing with are the proposed changes by you and others with similar ideas, because they make the gun too easy. All those changes do is make the gun easier to use, but not more effective in an absolute sense. An easy and powerful gun becomes a prolific gun. A gun feared for its proliferation is not being feared for the right reason. Instead, if you see somebody equipped with PPCs, it should strike fear into you because you know that pilot knows how to use their power to devastating effect. It's not doing that right now, and that's because it is too hot and its projectile is too slow, but simply buffing both of those characteristics is not the answer.

You bring up Planetside 2. More speed in exchange for recoil. Awesome. We should have recoil in MWO, and that would be the perfect thing to differentiate the PPC from lasers while the infinite ammo differentiates it from AC. But we don't have that. So say we buff the heat and speed on the PPC so it is internally balanced, and now it is "feared" and every Joe Schmoe has one because it is instant damage, high-velocity, and lower heat. Now, nobody ever takes an AC/10 ever again. What is your solution to that? Drop the weight on the AC/10? Because weight is the reason it's obsolete, not lasers. It's obsolete because a mere two tons gives you a weapon that does twice the damage and because regular PPCs have almost the same performance characteristics.They were obsolete when PPCs were only 8 heat, they were obsolete when PPCs were 10 heat and traveled at 1500 m/s, and they are obsolete now. Why would I build a Blackjack with an AC/10 and four MedLas and a squishy XL when I can just play around with some stuff to get an AC/20 in exchange for one less laser, or when I can build one with a PPC and four MedLas and a STD and fire just as fast, just as cool, with a bonus JJ? I wouldn't. Nobody would, unless he really likes the sound an AC/10 makes (understandable, it sounds pretty awesome).

The better solution to un-obsolete the AC/10 is to introduce a quirk to the PPC's behavior that differentiates it, that makes it not a point-and-click "I win" button like the LPL or AC/10 (on the occasion that you do take one). That's why I suggested what I did: It keeps it interesting without really gimping it. Joe Average will suck with the gun, as well he should, but the practiced players will be able to take advantage of its FLD nature to whittle away at laser-wielders at range, because laser-wielders are face-tankers and can't handle fast, distant objects providing tiny windows of opportunity and taking pot-shots.

And yes, you can hold them out at range. You can't do it in a Warhawk (and I said as much last post), but you can do it in any Light, most Mediums, and a few heavies. Just because it comes with four PPCs, doesn't mean the Warhawk should actually be good with them. It's a stupid build in lore and a stupid build in this game. Wasted potential. You need speed to fully capitalize on the benefits of front-loaded damage anyway, with laser damage being so high, which means even a corrected PPC needs it.

So, basically, I agree that the PPC needs help, but it's not enough to just speed up the projectile and lower its heat. We've already got several weapons in this game that don't really get used and haven't been popular for long time (MG, Flamer, LB-X, AC/10). The PPC's lack of popularity is a fairly recent phenomenon, and it returning it to a state similar to its pre-nerf form is just going to put it right back into popularity again. Maybe it won't be as dominating with quirks and Clan lasers, but it also won't fix any sort of balance issues. We all need to, honestly, stop complaining to PGI about individual weapons and, instead, try to get them to do a more comprehensive review of the entire set, because the whole thing is completely out of whack.

TL; DR

But speeding up the velocity DOES make it better in an absolute sense, because how they are now, you can only GUESS where to aim because you don't know what someone at 810m is going to do. Are they going to go left? Right? Stand still? If you guess wrong, you miss and that isn't skill it is luck.

Adding silly things like firing delays are awkward and I hope they never add those to PPCs.

Its so easy, just make them a little faster. Quirked IS lasers and Clan lasers will still have their place, that super-deathstar-alpha isn't going anywhere.


Lastly, NO ONE is saying to bring them back where they were. 1200 m/s PPCs is still slower than pre-nerf. ER PPCs on the other hand would be where they were pre-nerf. Guess how popular those were before the nerf????

[Davegt27]

having cool PPCs' would be a start

https://youtu.be/T3BkL67cDjQ?t=111

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 April 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

I think there's some misunderstanding going on here, perhaps due to the length of this conversation.

I'm not disagreeing that the PPC needs some form of fixing. They certainly do.

What I am disagreeing with are the proposed changes by you and others with similar ideas, because they make the gun too easy. All those changes do is make the gun easier to use, but not more effective in an absolute sense. An easy and powerful gun becomes a prolific gun. A gun feared for its proliferation is not being feared for the right reason. Instead, if you see somebody equipped with PPCs, it should strike fear into you because you know that pilot knows how to use their power to devastating effect. It's not doing that right now, and that's because it is too hot and its projectile is too slow, but simply buffing both of those characteristics is not the answer.

You bring up Planetside 2. More speed in exchange for recoil. Awesome. We should have recoil in MWO, and that would be the perfect thing to differentiate the PPC from lasers while the infinite ammo differentiates it from AC. But we don't have that. So say we buff the heat and speed on the PPC so it is internally balanced, and now it is "feared" and every Joe Schmoe has one because it is instant damage, high-velocity, and lower heat. Now, nobody ever takes an AC/10 ever again. What is your solution to that? Drop the weight on the AC/10? Because weight is the reason it's obsolete, not lasers. It's obsolete because a mere two tons gives you a weapon that does twice the damage and because regular PPCs have almost the same performance characteristics.They were obsolete when PPCs were only 8 heat, they were obsolete when PPCs were 10 heat and traveled at 1500 m/s, and they are obsolete now. Why would I build a Blackjack with an AC/10 and four MedLas and a squishy XL when I can just play around with some stuff to get an AC/20 in exchange for one less laser, or when I can build one with a PPC and four MedLas and a STD and fire just as fast, just as cool, with a bonus JJ? I wouldn't. Nobody would, unless he really likes the sound an AC/10 makes (understandable, it sounds pretty awesome).

The better solution to un-obsolete the AC/10 is to introduce a quirk to the PPC's behavior that differentiates it, that makes it not a point-and-click "I win" button like the LPL or AC/10 (on the occasion that you do take one). That's why I suggested what I did: It keeps it interesting without really gimping it. Joe Average will suck with the gun, as well he should, but the practiced players will be able to take advantage of its FLD nature to whittle away at laser-wielders at range, because laser-wielders are face-tankers and can't handle fast, distant objects providing tiny windows of opportunity and taking pot-shots.

And yes, you can hold them out at range. You can't do it in a Warhawk (and I said as much last post), but you can do it in any Light, most Mediums, and a few heavies. Just because it comes with four PPCs, doesn't mean the Warhawk should actually be good with them. It's a stupid build in lore and a stupid build in this game. Wasted potential. You need speed to fully capitalize on the benefits of front-loaded damage anyway, with laser damage being so high, which means even a corrected PPC needs it.

So, basically, I agree that the PPC needs help, but it's not enough to just speed up the projectile and lower its heat. We've already got several weapons in this game that don't really get used and haven't been popular for long time (MG, Flamer, LB-X, AC/10). The PPC's lack of popularity is a fairly recent phenomenon, and it returning it to a state similar to its pre-nerf form is just going to put it right back into popularity again. Maybe it won't be as dominating with quirks and Clan lasers, but it also won't fix any sort of balance issues. We all need to, honestly, stop complaining to PGI about individual weapons and, instead, try to get them to do a more comprehensive review of the entire set, because the whole thing is completely out of whack.

Ballistics are Obsolete because we have no need for heat management. WE have no heat penalties.

Sure, recoil would be neat, but that would just be a start and would need to apply to alot of weapons, cannons included.

It would require ground up redesign of the mechanics and that is not going to happen. So, while, yes, my idea is simply to buff it up and make it useable in that way, its only because I realistically dont ever see PGI changing anything otherwise. We are not going to get an indepth, meaningful heat scale. Heat penalties are not going to happen. The game is not going to become dynamic, immersive and deep.

Yes, I would love a 40 point heat scale, true dubs, a total rework of the skill tree, heat management system and all that. Ive even dreamt up ideas on how I would love to see it implemented, but is it going to happen? no...

So at the end of the day, I kinda am suggesting what is likely and could happen.

Cannons are obsolete because there is no heat scale, you dont need to bring cannons as back up weapons while your lasers are to hot, or lasers to back up your cannons when they run out of ammo. You simply pack in lasers because they deal more dmg for less heat. Back when lasers dealt less damage then they did heat, cannons and PPCs were actually good because, well, all lasers suffered similarly to it.

For pulses, instead of what PGI did, which was increase dmg, reduce heat, I personally woulda reduced CD for PL and kept heat/dmg the same, simply let Pulse lasers fire faster, since Pulses are Damage over time weapons, not KAZAP 13 dmg vs a LL 11...And when a LPL is dealing 13/10 hit scan while the PPC is a 10/15, slow as a boat, and cannons are 10/3, ammo dependant, heavy and size sucking leeches, yeah, your cannons are obsolete. Its no damn wonder we have a laser meta.

Should lasers tone back a bit? I think a little.

But PPCs, until they are buffed up with speed and damage, just like lasers, they will be crap...cuz now, even with a good player, a lesser player with Lasers can out do you badly. I almost lost to a Nova using SL and machineguns in my 4x CERPPC Warhawk from point blank range. He took out my leg, most my CT, most my other leg and part of my back while i was firing 1 PPC at a time, trying to account for PPC slow ass speed, and from over heating, having just killed a King Crab. I finally killed the NVA after about 10 more shots, on my final shut down he died....I needed to put 1 torso of lead on him from less then 100m, that is just to damn slow...he wasnt even moving fast,just back and forth.....Then, while PPCs need to be aimed, Lasers just point, click...dmg.....

I dont want PPCs to be Gauss Rifles, near hit scan speeds and stuff, just competitve.....

Which is why I keep on with

10/10, 3.5s, 1200ms+Quirks
10/12, 3.75, 1250ms+quirks
13-1-1/15, 4.25s, 1200ms+quirks

Awesome, Warhawk, Adder, they get the 1300-1350ms quirks, they get the best heat reduction on PPC and just the best with them

Summoner, Hellbringer, TDR, they get decent ones, what the TDR has now? about perfect, 30% velocity, bet it has good accuracy with PPC...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 09 April 2015 - 06:30 PM.

[Gyrok]

The biggest issue with lasers right now is this:

For the IS:

CW has encouraged less ammo dependence, combined with vastly reduced heat, you get laser meta. Add in hit scan so that even a shot that would miss can be corrected to do *some* damage and it makes a lot of sense that people would flock to them over the amazing IS ACs.

For the Clans:

Clan dakka sucks, clan erppcs suck, clan LRMs suck, and clan SRMs are *almost* as good as IS SRMs. So what is left? Lasers. By the truckload.

IS ACs are a valid option, but ammo dependent.

Clans have no other options.

If you fix ppcs or UACs/LBXs for clans, I promise I would run something other than lasers on a lot of mechs.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

The biggest issue with lasers right now is this:

For the IS:

CW has encouraged less ammo dependence, combined with vastly reduced heat, you get laser meta. Add in hit scan so that even a shot that would miss can be corrected to do *some* damage and it makes a lot of sense that people would flock to them over the amazing IS ACs.

For the Clans:

Clan dakka sucks, clan erppcs suck, clan LRMs suck, and clan SRMs are *almost* as good as IS SRMs. So what is left? Lasers. By the truckload.

IS ACs are a valid option, but ammo dependent.

Clans have no other options.

If you fix ppcs or UACs/LBXs for clans, I promise I would run something other than lasers on a lot of mechs.

For sure, I would love to try the 4x CERPPC WHK as it should be, not as the lulzy troll mech that it is...

I even brached off and tried a goosewaffle for the first time ever, didnt like it, that charge sucks..

I dared to try an LBX/SRM/MPL build...didnt work. Only build I have that ever gets any results is my Laser SCR or Laser WHK....not my LRM Mad Dog, or even my laser vomit Hellbringer..idk why but that mech sucks..

[Gyrok]

2ERLL+ 4ERML on Hellbie = profit.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2015 - 07:49 PM, said:

2ERLL+ 4ERML on Hellbie = profit.

Oh, ive got 2 LL, 3 ERML...not meta enough I guess lol.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 09 April 2015 - 07:51 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

If you fix ppcs or UACs/LBXs for clans, I promise I would run something other than lasers on a lot of mechs.

Don't say that! You will instill the fear of the PPFLD boogieman in the masses and they will abandon all rationale thought!

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 April 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

Don't say that! You will instill the fear of the PPFLD boogieman in the masses and they will abandon all rationale thought!

LOL

UACs and LBX are not PPFLD.....they are still just as spread as a laser, have you not seen the shot spread on a LBX?

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 April 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

LOL

UACs and LBX are not PPFLD.....they are still just as spread as a laser, have you not seen the shot spread on a LBX?

Well he said PPCs first which is what I was addressing.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Well he said PPCs first which is what I was addressing.

Even then, if CERPPC got 12-13 dmg, they wouldnt be OP, they would be useable. That is the entire point. 12-13 dmg isnt an over whelming amount of damage, especially not since ERPPC are hot and cant be endlessly spammed. I spend most of my fights single shotting betwen 70-99% heat. I get it up in my first 8 shots then single shot the rest. Hardly OP. However, that extra 2-3 dmg would be enough to score me multitudes more kills that I have missed simply because the 10dmg and 15 heat left me shut down and the mech just dead enough for someone tofinish off....

Lets see all the mechs I can recall being just dead enough for someone to finish off, or having killed me, despite being almost dead

Tourmaline: A King Crab and a HUnchback
THere was a Highlander in Bog
Last night it was a Treb and an Adder
Mad Dog on Alpine
Stormcrows in the stripped red rear

I mean, and these are just the mechs I can readily recall, with just 12 dmg vs 10, my 4x ERPPC Warhawk would have atleast 20 more kills then it does now, and probably 10 less deaths overall.

Time and again, even single shotting, I can get a mech to stripped, then while im cooling off, an allied comes in and ninjas the kill, or I die, or I sustain significantly more damage then I would have otherwise....

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 April 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Even then, if CERPPC got 12-13 dmg, they wouldnt be OP, they would be useable. That is the entire point. 12-13 dmg isnt an over whelming amount of damage, especially not since ERPPC are hot and cant be endlessly spammed. I spend most of my fights single shotting betwen 70-99% heat. I get it up in my first 8 shots then single shot the rest. Hardly OP. However, that extra 2-3 dmg would be enough to score me multitudes more kills that I have missed simply because the 10dmg and 15 heat left me shut down and the mech just dead enough for someone tofinish off....

Lets see all the mechs I can recall being just dead enough for someone to finish off, or having killed me, despite being almost dead

Tourmaline: A King Crab and a HUnchback
THere was a Highlander in Bog
Last night it was a Treb and an Adder
Mad Dog on Alpine
Stormcrows in the stripped red rear

I mean, and these are just the mechs I can readily recall, with just 12 dmg vs 10, my 4x ERPPC Warhawk would have atleast 20 more kills then it does now, and probably 10 less deaths overall.

Time and again, even single shotting, I can get a mech to stripped, then while im cooling off, an allied comes in and ninjas the kill, or I die, or I sustain significantly more damage then I would have otherwise....

I would rather have more velocity than increased damage. How would you justify IS (ER) PPCs doing 12-13 damage? That wouldn't go over well...