263 replies to this topic

[Novawrecker]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

Lights are the bane of any Vindicator because of that stupid minimum range and you should at least have some chance to do damage within that range rather than getting a simple "lol no"

Pardon? That's not bad game design, that's bad player decision to rely soley on PPCs instead of using other, more effective weapons vs. Light mechs (say pulse lasers as back up weapons. I know, call me crazy )

[MercJ]

They really need to rethink more than velocity and heat.

They need to redo the entire mechanic of the weapon.

It should not be an "energy ballistic" - an ammo-less AC/10. No wonder they have such trouble balancing it (the Gauss/PPC poptarts, the AC/5/PPC era etc. etc. etc...). It's a "Particle Projection Cannon", right? Make it something DIFFERENT!

If anything, make it a lightning strike or something. I've always thought the PPCs should have gotten the charge mechanic and kept their velocity... I seem to remember it always being described as a particle shotgun - not that it needs to be an energy LBX, but why not change how the weapon works instead of trying to find a perfect ratio of velocity/heat? There are OTHER ways to balance....(we've seen how scale can affect the viability of certain mechs and how hitboxes play a part, etc.).

I think a little "outside the box" thinking would do wonders for making the PPC an interesting and fair weapon to use.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

I wouldn't call that effective though.

If you should not, then why would you? And that's the point. Just because you can load up 2 ER PPCs and gobs of DHS doesn't mean you are going to have a good build.

No, that's because PPCs are terribad, hence the talk of weapon buffs....no?

Though, I think you need 4 in a Banshee to get 2 high mounted ones, due to priority slotting.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

I only suggest 1500 m/s for I-ERPPCs, as with some other suggestions the C-ERPPC should be less to keep them semi-balanced (1250 for the C-ERPPC would be good).

As for the standard PPC, first and foremost needs the minimum range removed since this is supposed to be a midrange weapon, it seems silly that at less than 90m, the ERPPC is the better brawling weapon. As for velocity, the PPC should probably match the C-ERPPC in velocity.

All ACs could stand a velocity increase (except the AC2) as well which may be for another thread but need to at least be mentioned if the sync between AC5s and PPCs is still feared.

I could deal with something like 1300 if we could have 15 pinpoint damage. Otherwise, the PP damage is the same, the heat is the same, the velocity should be the same.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

Above all else, ERPPCs need higher velocity.....1050 and for PPCs 950, that is a joke....Yeah, I know AC10s move 950 or so, but those are also like what? 4 heat? PPCs dont need a longer CD unless they got higher damage as well. If anything needs a longer CD its the Gauss Rifle and AC20.....low ass heat and high ass damage, alongside a pretty fast CD for what they do.

AC20s dont need a longer cooldown, their DPS is what keeps them viable in a brawl currently. The Gauss however I would gladly trade a 6 sec cooldown for the removal of the charge mechanic and return of the ability to snapshot with it, but that is neither here nor there.

I don't think standard PPCs need a longer cooldown, Im arguing for ERPPCs to get a longer cooldown to compensate for the ability to actually be useful at extreme range.

[Gyrok]

Novawrecker, on 02 April 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Pardon? That's not bad game design, that's bad player decision to rely soley on PPCs instead of using other, more effective weapons vs. Light mechs (say pulse lasers as back up weapons. I know, call me crazy )

I agree...that is the legitimate drawback for using 10 heat PPCs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Novawrecker, on 02 April 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Pardon? That's not bad game design, that's bad player decision to rely soley on PPCs instead of using other, more effective weapons vs. Light mechs (say pulse lasers as back up weapons. I know, call me crazy )

It's bad counter play which is bad game design. Even in TT you had the ability to luck out and hit a mech within that range. Currently if you hit a mech at even 89m, you do 0 damage. As for bad decision to rely solely on PPCs, you do realize that no other direct fire weapon requires this right? So what exactly is the reasoning for this to be the only direct fire weapon to rely on support weaponry? I suppose you could argue MGs/Flamers require backup weaponry but let's not even drag that mess into this conversation.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

No, that's because PPCs are terribad, hence the talk of weapon buffs....no?

Though, I think you need 4 in a Banshee to get 2 high mounted ones, due to priority slotting.

Sure, but say they were at the state they were in pre-nerf. Put two on there and as many DHS as you can fit (24) How effective of a brawler will you have? Maximum of 5 DPs, 3 DPS sustained fully mastered. Not very impressive. Unless you pair them with cool weapons it doesn't get any better.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

I could deal with something like 1300 if we could have 15 pinpoint damage. Otherwise, the PP damage is the same, the heat is the same, the velocity should be the same.

Then you are in denial at how overpowered that is.

[LordKnightFandragon]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

I only suggest 1500 m/s for I-ERPPCs, as with some other suggestions the C-ERPPC should be less to keep them semi-balanced (1250 for the C-ERPPC would be good).

As for the standard PPC, first and foremost needs the minimum range removed since this is supposed to be a midrange weapon, it seems silly that at less than 90m, the ERPPC is the better brawling weapon. As for velocity, the PPC should probably match the C-ERPPC in velocity.

All ACs could stand a velocity increase (except the AC2) as well which may be for another thread but need to at least be mentioned if the sync between AC5s and PPCs is still feared.

PPCs are not brawling weapons in any form or fashion....you can take them into a brawl, but they are not brawling weapons.

SRMs, SL, SPL, MPL, AC20s, Flamers....in another life...those are brawling weapons. Stuff to get in a persons face and shoot them up, out do them on heat, DPS and the like.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

I could deal with something like 1300 if we could have 15 pinpoint damage. Otherwise, the PP damage is the same, the heat is the same, the velocity should be the same.

Lol, I would take 13 dmg like LPL for 15 heat as well lol. 1200 velocity, 13dmg, 15 heat, 4s CD? or hell, 4.5s CD works to. 13 dmg in 4 shots is still 52 dmg over the current 40. In 8 shots its 104 dmg vs 80. 100 dmg you can strip an assault, 80, you can barely strip a heavy...velocity buffs and heat reduction buffs would be a good place to start though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

PPCs are not brawling weapons in any form or fashion....you can take them into a brawl, but they are not brawling weapons.

SRMs, SL, SPL, MPL, AC20s, Flamers....in another life...those are brawling weapons. Stuff to get in a persons face and shoot them up, out do them on heat, DPS and the like.

They can be used as brawling weapons though, just as Gauss doubled as a brawling weapon back before the charge mechanic was added. Just because the range is long doesn't necessarily make it ineffective at short range. I'm not saying PPCs are the go to brawling weapon, what I'm saying is you have to be careful with buffs because that allows them to double as brawling weapons.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Then you are in denial at how overpowered that is.

Really?

How about this being overpowered:

AC20 - 20 PP damage - 650 m/s - 7 heat
AC10 - 10 PP damage - 950 m/s - 3 heat
AC5 - 5 PP damage - 1150 m/s - 2 heat
UAC5 - 5 PP damage - 1150 m/s - 2 heat - lower jam chance, 2 PP 5 damage projectiles per volley.

Compared to:

UAC20 - 20 damage over 5 projectiles - 750 m/s - 7 heat
LBX20 - 20 damage over 20 projectiles - 850 m/s - 6 heat
UAC10 - 10 damage over 4 projectiles - 1050 m/s - 4 heat
LBX10 - 10 damage over 10 projectiles - 1150 m/s - 3 heat
UAC5 - 5 damage over 3 projectiles - 1250 m/s - 2 heat
LBX5 - 5 damage over 5 projectiles - 1350 m/s - 2 heat

[Pjwned]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

It's bad counter play which is bad game design. Even in TT you had the ability to luck out and hit a mech within that range. Currently if you hit a mech at even 89m, you do 0 damage. As for bad decision to rely solely on PPCs, you do realize that no other direct fire weapon requires this right? So what exactly is the reasoning for this to be the only direct fire weapon to rely on support weaponry? I suppose you could argue MGs/Flamers require backup weaponry but let's not even drag that mess into this conversation.

PPCs are unique in that they're high damage pinpoint energy weapons, meaning no ammo required unlike autocannons, so they have a small minimum range to balance things out. It's not bad counterplay to give them a weakness in close range either just because you don't like it, though I do agree that doing 0 damage at 89m is pretty dumb and it should have a similar damage scaling formula to C-LRMs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Really?

How about this being overpowered:

AC20 - 20 PP damage - 650 m/s - 7 heat
AC10 - 10 PP damage - 950 m/s - 3 heat
AC5 - 5 PP damage - 1150 m/s - 2 heat
UAC5 - 5 PP damage - 1150 m/s - 2 heat - lower jam chance, 2 PP 5 damage projectiles per volley.

Compared to:

UAC20 - 20 damage over 5 projectiles - 750 m/s - 7 heat
LBX20 - 20 damage over 20 projectiles - 850 m/s - 6 heat
UAC10 - 10 damage over 4 projectiles - 1050 m/s - 4 heat
LBX10 - 10 damage over 10 projectiles - 1150 m/s - 3 heat
UAC5 - 5 damage over 3 projectiles - 1250 m/s - 2 heat
LBX5 - 5 damage over 5 projectiles - 1350 m/s - 2 heat

So you bring up one imbalance to justify another?

Sorry, I agree CUACs need a buff, but saying because they are bad something else should be an improvement when Clans already have the superior lasers without needing crazy quirks is just silly.

[LordKnightFandragon]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

They can be used as brawling weapons though, just as Gauss doubled as a brawling weapon back before the charge mechanic was added. Just because the range is long doesn't necessarily make it ineffective at short range. I'm not saying PPCs are the go to brawling weapon, what I'm saying is you have to be careful with buffs because that allows them to double as brawling weapons.

Yes, that makes sense. And with a reduction to maybe 12 heat for 10 dmg, velocity to 1200-1300 wouldnt make them go to brawling weapons. They would still be out done. 12 heat vs 15 heat on the Warhawk's 106? point heat scale allows it to fire the full 8 times, while at 15 it can fire 7 and has to wait for the 8th. So, not a huge change, but helps a little. If it was paired alongside a faster dissipation rate, it would just allow more output a little faster.

Velocity change would just make it work better in it's intended role as a mid range weapon, which makes it so PPC bearers are not forced into brawl range to even get hits....like it is now...

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Really?

How about this being overpowered:

AC20 - 20 PP damage - 650 m/s - 7 heat
AC10 - 10 PP damage - 950 m/s - 3 heat
AC5 - 5 PP damage - 1150 m/s - 2 heat
UAC5 - 5 PP damage - 1150 m/s - 2 heat - lower jam chance, 2 PP 5 damage projectiles per volley.

Compared to:

UAC20 - 20 damage over 5 projectiles - 750 m/s - 7 heat
LBX20 - 20 damage over 20 projectiles - 850 m/s - 6 heat
UAC10 - 10 damage over 4 projectiles - 1050 m/s - 4 heat
LBX10 - 10 damage over 10 projectiles - 1150 m/s - 3 heat
UAC5 - 5 damage over 3 projectiles - 1250 m/s - 2 heat
LBX5 - 5 damage over 5 projectiles - 1350 m/s - 2 heat

It would be nice if you didn't leave out the tonnage and range advantage that clan ACs have, but that would mean not being a clan apologist I guess. I also see that all of those ACs have higher velocity than their IS counterparts, even if it's not by much.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Really?

How about this being overpowered:

AC20 - 20 PP damage - 650 m/s - 7 heat
AC10 - 10 PP damage - 950 m/s - 3 heat
AC5 - 5 PP damage - 1150 m/s - 2 heat
UAC5 - 5 PP damage - 1150 m/s - 2 heat - lower jam chance, 2 PP 5 damage projectiles per volley.

Compared to:

UAC20 - 20 damage over 5 projectiles - 750 m/s - 7 heat
LBX20 - 20 damage over 20 projectiles - 850 m/s - 6 heat
UAC10 - 10 damage over 4 projectiles - 1050 m/s - 4 heat
LBX10 - 10 damage over 10 projectiles - 1150 m/s - 3 heat
UAC5 - 5 damage over 3 projectiles - 1250 m/s - 2 heat
LBX5 - 5 damage over 5 projectiles - 1350 m/s - 2 heat

LBs have always been garbage, and we all agree Clan ACs need a buff. Maybe 1 less projectile and faster velocity? Something, but this is about PPCs. So you want a cER PPC that is both lighter and better than its IS equivalent? That is not really balanced.. IMO just make the cER PPC behave however the IS one behaves, plus the splash damage. Yeah its a little better but whatever its too hot to be that great. You could also make the IS one cost 14 heat instead if 15, very small advantage to combat the splash damage (which does help a little BTW).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

PPCs are unique in that they're high damage pinpoint energy weapons, meaning no ammo required unlike autocannons, so they have a small minimum range to balance things out. It's not bad counterplay to give them a weakness in close range either just because you don't like it, though I do agree that doing 0 damage at 89m is pretty dumb and it should have a similar damage scaling formula to C-LRMs.

It is bad counter play because it is a HARD counter. Even a linear drop off is a little silly given the power creep and huge nerfs the PPC took. As for needing minimum range to balance out being the only energy PPFLD weapon, that argument fails when you take into consideration the ERPPC which is partially balanced by the heat, so obviously it isn't a necessity to keep it balanced.

[Deathlike]

Well, I kinda started the ball on this, so I guess it's time to be more specific on the discussion.

PPCs, ERPPCs, and to a lesser extent Clan ERPPCs aren't used w/o quirks. They are meddling in effectiveness, and only "useful" at mid range due to their velocity... so let's take a look at the numbers...

IS PPC
10 damage (all frontloaded)
10 heat
4 second cooldown
540m range (min range of 90m, dealing 0 damage)
950 m/s projectile speed


IS ERPPC
10 damage (all frontloaded)
15 heat
4 second cooldown
810m range
1050 m/s projectile speed

Clan ERPPC
15 damage (10 frontloaded, 2.5 damage to the left and right side "adjacent" of hit location)
15 heat
4 second cooldown
810m range
1050 m/s projectile speed

Just ignoring the 1 ton+crit savings that the Clan weapon has (it's a factor, but not exactly a seriously overriding one unless you like putting CERPPCs in the CT)... the IS ERPPC is screwed in this comparison due to generating the same heat as the Clan ERPPC, but having no real tangible benefit otherwise. Adding +5 heat while gaining no min range from the IS PPC is not exactly a great tradeoff currently.... and the Clan ERPPC does generally 2.5 more damage when a target is hit, which has a decent side benefit (and Clans tend to put in more crit friendly Clan DHS than IS can do with IS DHS).

My original opinion previously was to tweak the heat on the IS ERPPC from 15 to 13.5 or 14, but projectile speed is an honestly better option as a direct heat change would cause unintended side effects down the road of balance (which is filled with potholes and detours).

So, here's my proposal (numbers could change as needed)... the changes are directed towards projectile velocity as that is the most important factor for PPC use generally..

PPC: 1050 m/s (current ERPPC value)
Clan ERPPC: 1200 m/s
IS ERPPC: 1300 m/s

The Clan ERPPC can regain some of its velocity through the Targeting Computer (which most competitive players would be using anyways... the 1st version anyways - Targeting Comp v1 provides 4.5% velocity increase for reference). If you wanted more velocity for the Clan version, you could commit a bigger version, but that should even itself out.

That should help PPCs in general, but we need to talk about a serious issue... like Cooldown.

Gauss does 15 pt frontloaded damage for the requirements it has (Clan or IS, it's the same), but it does it at a ridiculous "4.75 second total minimum recycle time" (4s firing + .75s charge = 4.75s total). While I think Gauss AND PPC needs a cooldown increase... you need to "normalize" other weapons.

Here's a list of weapons with recycle times... see if you can spot some issues..
Med Laser: 3s cooldown, .9s duration, 3.9s total
Large Laser: 3.25 cooldown, 1.0s duration, 4.25s total
Clan ER Med: 3s cooldown, 1.15s duration, 4.15s total
Clan Med Pulse: 3s cooldown, .85s duration, 3.85s total
Clan ER Large: 3.25s cooldown, 1.5s duration, 4.75s total
Clan Large Pulse: 3.25s cooldown, 1.12s duration, 4.37s total
PPC/ERPPC/CERPPC: 4s cooldown
Gauss: 4s cooldown, .75 min charge, 4.75 total min

Now, this doesn't really account for heat as PPCs in general are hot, but the frontloaded damage nature somewhat favors coolant and to some degree poptarting... as jumping, shooting and getting back into cover (through landing) was somewhat favorable over lasers.

So, let's rework all the long range weapons... laservomit and PPCs shall we?

Increase IS Large and Large Pulse laser cooldown to somewhere between 3.5s and 3.75s (an increase of .25s to .5s cooldown)
Increase Clan ER Medium and Medium Pulse laser cooldown to 3.25s (an increase of .25s)
Increase Clan ER Large Laser and Large Pulse laser cooldown to 4s (an increase of .75s)
Decrease Clan ER Large Laser duration from 1.5s to between 1.33s and 1.4s (compensation for increasing cooldown)
Increase PPC/ERPPC/CERPPC cooldown from 4s to 5s.
Increase Gauss/Clan Gauss cooldown from 4s to 5s.

This is a nerf for the most part (CERLL gets a slight buff though), but it should bring in line some of the long range weapons with their shorter range counterparts... on both IS and Clan sides. Of course, this doesn't account for ballistics on the whole or missiles, but I guess it's better to be said now.

I can put together what the final numbers look like in a much nicer form if needed.

[Kain Demos]

I'm sick of seeing "clans have superior lasers" as a blanket statement. Do they have higher damage and range? Yes, though range is less of an issue with quirks but the heat is also higher and most importantly BEAM DURATIONS are quite different.