263 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

So you bring up one imbalance to justify another?

Sorry, I agree CUACs need a buff, but saying because they are bad something else should be an improvement when Clans already have the superior lasers without needing crazy quirks is just silly.

IS has countless PP FLD weapons...many of which hit as hard or harder than anything the clans have to offer. Asking for the clans to get a total of 2 15 damage PP FLD weapons compared to the cornucopia of options in the IS seems a bit trivial does it not?

[LordKnightFandragon]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

So you bring up one imbalance to justify another?

Sorry, I agree CUACs need a buff, but saying because they are bad something else should be an improvement when Clans already have the superior lasers without needing crazy quirks is just silly.

Clans have better on paper lasers. Actually use them, the IS kinda have the better ones, esp after quirks.

Clans have a slight damage edge, but the faster burn time on IS Lasers lends to more useful damage dealt, over the Clans spreading more due to the enemy having time to twist some away, messing up their own aim or w/e. THen, quirks which give IS lasers better heat efficiency actually ends up making IS lasers the better ones. Some even get range quirks.

So in the end, IS lasers have

Clan Range
Better burn time
better heat efficiency

Clan lasers get a measely on paper damage advantage while taking a heat penalty for having that extra damage and range. The IS go and get CLan range, better beam times AND better heat eff....yeah....

[Gas Guzzler]

If you want to talk about lasers or autocannons start another thread, this one is about PPCs and related.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

If you want to talk about lasers or autocannons start another thread, this one is about PPCs and related.

LOL, link it to Russ's Twitter, then we would get a response......

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

IS has countless PP FLD weapons...many of which hit as hard or harder than anything the clans have to offer. Asking for the clans to get a total of 2 15 damage PP FLD weapons compared to the cornucopia of options in the IS seems a bit trivial does it not?

If you ignore all of these things:

-Lower weight on clan gauss rifles
-Lower crit slots on clan gauss rifles
-Lower weight on clan ER PPCs
-Lower crit slots on ER PPCs
-Higher damage on clan ER PPCs for free, even if it is splash damage it's still there
-No drawbacks whatsoever for these advantages unlike other clan weapons which at least have some sort of tradeoff

Then yeah I guess it's trivial to ask for even more lethal pinpoint weapons if you, again, ignore every single thing listed there.

[Kain Demos]

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

If you ignore all of these things:

-Lower weight on clan gauss rifles
-Lower crit slots on clan gauss rifles
-Lower weight on clan ER PPCs
-Lower crit slots on ER PPCs
-Higher damage on clan ER PPCs for free, even if it is splash damage it's still there
-No drawbacks whatsoever for these advantages unlike other clan weapons which at least have some sort of tradeoff

Then yeah I guess it's trivial to ask for even more lethal pinpoint weapons if you, again, ignore every single thing listed there.

The balance to those features is our garbage construction rules.

[Eider]

So.. clans basicly want all thunderbolt quirks that they basicly cried to take away.. got it.

[Kain Demos]

Eider, on 02 April 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

So.. clans basicly want all thunderbolt quirks that they basicly cried to take away.. got it.

Who is asking for 7.5 heat value CERPPCs?

NOt that I ever cared about the TDR-9S anyway. They could quirk a 'mech with zero heat weapons and I would not give a ****.

Edited by Kain Thul, 02 April 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

Clans have better on paper lasers. Actually use them, the IS kinda have the better ones, esp after quirks.

No, they really don't.

The C-ERML is the easiest one to use to prove the discrepancy because that small 135 extra range on top of doing a little bit extra damage is amazing. If the DGN-1C could use Clan tech lasers/Gauss, it would be significantly better than any IS version you could create. There in lies the problem, if I could put C-ERMLs on any of my IS mechs, even with some of the quirks, you bet I would. The IS has slightly better MPLs where as the LPLs fulfill different roles between techs. The ERLLs have a decent trade-off with each other and is probably the best tech parity.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

IS has countless PP FLD weapons...many of which hit as hard or harder than anything the clans have to offer. Asking for the clans to get a total of 2 15 damage PP FLD weapons compared to the cornucopia of options in the IS seems a bit trivial does it not?

You do realize the IS only have 2 weapons that are over 10 points of damage right? The Gauss and AC20 and while both are amazing they don't combine well. C-ERPPCs and C-Gauss are both powerful long range weapons so let's not pretend that we don't know what would happen with 60 PPFLD alphas that can hit at 660m. Not to mention the weight it takes the IS to actually match an alpha of a clan mech thanks to all the weight savings. Keep sharpshooting the stats though, you may find one that serves you well.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 April 2015 - 03:03 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Guys please, this isn't about IS vs Clan, we are all on the same team here. We want viable PPCs type weapons. Don't worry about.mundane little velocity changes between IS and Clan ER PPCs, let's just get them all working effectively.

[Pjwned]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

It is bad counter play because it is a HARD counter. Even a linear drop off is a little silly given the power creep and huge nerfs the PPC took.

It's a hard counter if your enemy is right in your face, so just stay far enough away just like with LRMs and you're good. It should do more than 0 damage at 89m but if you want something more dependable in those extremely close ranges then bring other weapons, which you should probably do anyways just to have more efficient weapons at that range, otherwise deal with it.

Quote

As for needing minimum range to balance out being the only energy PPFLD weapon, that argument fails when you take into consideration the ERPPC which is partially balanced by the heat, so obviously it isn't a necessity to keep it balanced.

Let me know when the PPC is tied for being the hottest weapon in the game by a long shot and I'll say yeah you can have PPCs with no minimum range, otherwise it's your argument that fails.

[LordKnightFandragon]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

No, they really don't.

The C-ERML is the easiest one to use to prove the discrepancy because that small 135 extra range on top of doing a little bit extra damage is amazing. If the DGN-1C could use Clan tech lasers/Gauss, it would be significantly better than any IS version you could create. There in lies the problem, if I could put C-ERMLs on any of my IS mechs, even with some of the quirks, you bet I would. The IS has slightly better SPL/MPLs where as the LPLs fulfill different roles between techs. The ERLLs have a decent trade-off with each other and is probably the best tech parity.


You do realize the IS only have 2 weapons that are over 10 points of damage right? The Gauss and AC20 and while both are amazing they don't combine well. C-ERPPCs and C-Gauss are both powerful long range weapons so let's not pretend that we don't know what would happen with 60 PPFLD alphas that can hit at 660m. Not to mention the weight it takes the IS to actually match an alpha of a clan mech thanks to all the weight savings. Keep sharpshooting the stats though, you may find one that serves you well.

CERML, yeah, it might be the one gold nugget in a large field of ****. Not to say Clan Lasers are absolute trash, but IS Lasers in general are not that terrible, quirked they get the Clan advantage of range while keeping the IS advantages of burn time and heat efficiency. CMPL is a decent one as well, but once the brawling starts, that IS MPL? Its really nice. 0.67s Burn time? 220m range, but that is not a huge deal, most fights are close range.

And Gyrok said PPFLD weapons, the IS get all their ACs, the GR, and even their smaller lasers are more PP then anything the Clans have, even their LRMs bunch up more....Yes, we all know what would happen if GR/PPC meta was to return, but the only mech that could do a 60pt is the Dire Whale.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

Guys please, this isn't about IS vs Clan, we are all on the same team here. We want viable PPCs type weapons. Don't worry about.mundane little velocity changes between IS and Clan ER PPCs, let's just get them all working effectively.

Any thread that involves cross tech suggestions will invite this sort of discussion. There is no avoiding it unfortunately, so let that serve as a warning for you

Saw this pretty much all the time in discussions surrounding MW4 mods.

[Pjwned]

Kain Thul, on 02 April 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

The balance to those features is our garbage construction rules.

I realize that, but the advantages are more than enough that you don't need more considering those advantages come at no other cost unlike other clan weapon systems.

Edited by Pjwned, 02 April 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Even in a Timber Wolf if you want more than 2 ER PPCs you are going to be hard pressed to find the heatsinks, unless you just add machine guns.

I ran it like this post CERPPC nerf: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2c2baa5d1f445bd

Main thing is to not fire the CERPPCs at close range. Fall back on to the CERSLAS, and try disengage and get range.

I thought it was going to be awful, but actually it was pretty decent. A bit more speed and it would be more effective at further ranges.


The heat often saw me do less damage than my laser vomit build, but it scored a lot of kills - especially inside 500m.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 April 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

No, they really don't.

The C-ERML is the easiest worst one to use to prove the discrepancy because that small 135 extra range on top of doing a little bit extra damage is amazing it has a damage to heat ratio that is only exceeded by the 3 weapons being discussed in this very thread.... If the DGN-1C could use Clan tech lasers/Gauss, it would be significantly better than any IS version you could create. There in lies the problem, if I could put C-ERMLs on any of my IS mechs, even with some of the quirks, you bet I would. The IS has slightly better MPLs where as the LPLs fulfill different roles between techs.poi Discussing mixed-tech is off the table and completely irrelevant, I would point you to the DW which would gladly take your IS UAC5s and boat them without the complaints the IS has for their "poor weapons". The ERLLs have a decent trade-off with each other and is probably the best tech parity.


You do realize the IS only have 2 weapons that are over 10 points of damage right? The Gauss and AC20 and while both are amazing they don't combine well. C-ERPPCs and C-Gauss are both powerful long range weapons so let's not pretend that we don't know what would happen with 60 PPFLD alphas that can hit at 660m. Not to mention the weight it takes the IS to actually match an alpha of a clan mech thanks to all the weight savings. Keep sharpshooting the stats though, you may find one that serves you well.

FTFY!



KGC 2xAC20 + 2xLPL = 62 Alpha.

Edited by Gyrok, 02 April 2015 - 03:12 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Any thread that involves cross tech suggestions will invite this sort of discussion. There is no avoiding it unfortunately, so let that serve as a warning for you

Saw this pretty much all the time in discussions surrounding MW4 mods.

Well they all need to be better than they are now, and frankly before the nerf there were more PPCs then there were cER PPCs.

Others still going on about lasers. The only one that is truly the difference maker is the cER ML. There is no 1 ton 400 m 7 damage IS equivalent. The IS ML is nothing in comparison. Duration and heat is better yes, but the ability to reach out that far is huge. If the IS got their 5 damage ER ML I would be content, but that's probably not going to happen for some time. Quirks have helped the IS enough for me not to care about that balance NEARLY as much as I care about having good PPCs again, so let's focus on that!!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

It's a hard counter if your enemy is right in your face, so just stay far enough away just like with LRMs and you're good. It should do more than 0 damage at 89m but if you want something more dependable in those extremely close ranges then bring other weapons, which you should probably do anyways just to have more efficient weapons at that range, otherwise deal with it.

It is still a hard counter regardless of the range, it means anything within that range no amount of skill can overcome as far as gunnery goes. That is just bad design, and I would say the same thing about LRMs if I didn't think they need a redesign to begin with. You also ignore that NO OTHER non-missile weapon needs support weapons and have failed to present a reasonable argument for this fact, other than deal with it or use other weapons.

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Let me know when the PPC is tied for being the hottest weapon in the game by a long shot and I'll say yeah you can have PPCs with no minimum range, otherwise it's your argument that fails.

Your logic was the minimum range was necessary a trade-off for being a unique PPFLD damage energy weapon. I proved that the ERPPC is another PPFLD energy weapon, and lacks minimum range so obviously the minimum range is not necessary to balance it against ammo based PPFLD weapons. That is the key, not necessary. So yes, the PPCs can have no minimum range and still be balanced against ammo based PPFLD weapons, it just needs heat to be enough to counter balance.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

FTFY!



KGC 2xAC20 + 2xLPL = 62 Alpha.

Ghost heat bro. Not good when you are that close to someone.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

Well they all need to be better than they are now, and frankly before the nerf there were more PPCs then there were cER PPCs.

Others still going on about lasers. The only one that is truly the difference maker is the cER ML. There is no 1 ton 400 m 7 damage IS equivalent. The IS ML is nothing in comparison. Duration and heat is better yes, but the ability to reach out that far is huge. If the IS got their 5 damage ER ML I would be content, but that's probably not going to happen for some time. Quirks have helped the IS enough for me not to care about that balance NEARLY as much as I care about having good PPCs again, so let's focus on that!!

Except that the damage to heat on the CERML is the worst in the game next to the 3 weapons in the PPC family...

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

Ghost heat bro. Not good when you are that close to someone.

a single 62 pt alpha will not over heat you, then burn your cool shot and alternate your 20s