291 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

Soy, on 07 April 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

Firing an arm around a rock is not a current strong point of the chassis. Period.

Saying that a mech that can poptart is similar to a mech that cannot poptart is ******* STUPID. Otherwise, lets compare 3D to old K2 back in the day oh wait no that's completely asinine. gg

If you have little use for JJs on Nova, you are playing it wrong. End of.

I understand your position, and it's woefully naive. Sorry. This is an important discussion so for the sake of clarity and efficiency of feedback/communication, stop talking. Thanks.

And what would you consider a strong point? Frankly, being able to hide 90% of your Mech while shooting up someone else's Mech seems a strong point to me. I can testify that it works too.

Wow, arrogant much? I get some pretty good scores in my Nova, so I must know what I'm doing. I daresay that if you believe JJs are an ultimate solution that you yourself are naive. Also, you ended your incomplete sentence with a preposition.

I don't think you understand my position at all and, to be frank, I'm still scratching my head over why trolls like you think they know so much or have license to be so arrogant. You kind of remind me of the guy with the beard below:

Edited by Nightmare1, 07 April 2015 - 04:55 PM.

[Summon3r]

survivability was never really the issue for the summoner it is still desperately lacking

[Felicitatem Parco]

Nightmare1, on 07 April 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

And what would you consider a strong point? Frankly, being able to hide 90% of your Mech while shooting up someone else's Mech seems a strong point to me. I can testify that it works too.

Wow, arrogant much? I get some pretty good scores in my Nova, so I must know what I'm doing.

How do you shoot an enemy if you cannot see them from your cockpit? You need cockpit LOS in order to place your cross hair on target, and you can't line up your cross hair if your cockpit is behind a building.

The "hide 90% of your Mech" argument is only valid for Blackjacks, Jagers, stalkers, and other Mechs with cockpit-heoght weapons and correspondingly high cockpits.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 07 April 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[Soy]

Nightmare1, on 07 April 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

And what would you consider a strong point? Frankly, being able to hide 90% of your Mech while shooting up someone else's Mech seems a strong point to me. I can testify that it works too.

Wow, arrogant much? I get some pretty good scores in my Nova, so I must know what I'm doing. I daresay that if you believe JJs are an ultimate solution that you yourself are naive. Also, you ended your incomplete sentence with a preposition.

I don't think you understand my position at all and, to be frank, I'm still scratching my head over why trolls like you think they know so much or have license to be so arrogant. You kind of remind me of the guy with the beard below:

Enjoy constantly exposing that arm any good pilot will shoot it off.

When you talk about not wanting JJs and wanting more DHS for your prime Nova you're doing it wrong. You're trying to say that the mech is good at boulder humping. Great, that's cool, cept there's the Crow right above it that does it better cuz it has a borked hit box and won't lose that arm from a tilted alpha since you harp about exposing it and only it over and over behind a rock.

Pidgeonholing the mech into generic ML laser vomit poking is ******* trite. It misses the point of what the mech is capable of.

On the other hand, the A quirks understand the mech is a poptart. It plays upon that with PPC velocity, finally.

The irony is that the only quirks that synergize off the Prime are ML, which lead to the above. It ***** with other boats, like pulses. It lost a lot of torso turn rate which also ruins pulse boating for snap shot soaking. So the armor buff is a washout for that.

The mech is best as a ninja striker mech. I can't put it any other way.

Nova will get another tweak pass because of this very issue, I'm certain of this.

[Racersky]

Well it is true, no need to purchase mech with real money, just donate to pgi. Complain about the quirks and pgi will "quirk/requirk" the mechs. So why do I keep paying real usd? pgi need to eat too! so don't get your pantes in a wad if you purchase a package and those mechs are "weak" because they do not have "quirks". yet...You know the OP quiks that last untl next patch. Just be patient...the clan mechs will get some op quirks, n players will cry about them. The the jenners will get op quirks and some1 else will cry about them...etc...just play n enjoy

[Hylius]

I got so excited that I could finally run a basically prime Nova, my favorite 'Mech, because it got the quirks it needed. Then I logged on and saw the unstated truth that the Prime lost its generic energy quirks and died on the inside. Give me my energy quirks back any day over extra structure. I didn't have problems living, I had problems firing anything other than small pulses.

[Nightmare1]

Prosperity Park, on 07 April 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

How do you shoot an enemy if you cannot see them from your cockpit? You need cockpit LOS in order to place your cross hair on target, and you can't line up your cross hair if your cockpit is behind a building.

The "hide 90% of your Mech" argument is only valid for Blackjacks, Jagers, stalkers, and other Mechs with cockpit-heoght weapons and correspondingly high cockpits.

You can always use 3rd person. It's a bit difficult, but if you're careful, it can be done.

Edit: Before someone gigs me on this, think a bit before you reply. I'm being sarcastic here because I don't feel like using Crayons to explain myself to the person who's arguing with me.

Edited by Nightmare1, 08 April 2015 - 05:32 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mike Forst, on 07 April 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

I don't have quirks that can modify C-ERPPC splash damage. In fact, I can't modify the damage value of any weapon at all through quirks.

Well, straight up, bottom line, the ERPPCs and PPCs in this game need buffs. They are not even comparable to a medium pulse laser, much less anything heavier. THey are utter ****. To low of damage, to much heat, to slow of velocity.

I just had 2 games in the Warhawk with the 4x CERPPC build. The heat quirks were somewhat noticeable, I was able to crack off maybe 1 or 2 more shots, and fire a tiny bit sooner overall, but the speed quirks, they make very marginal difference.

What needs to happen, straight up is PPC, ISERPPC and CERPPC need buffs.

Having played with 1200ms velocity, I can safely say, 1300 wound be a good starting point for straight PPC buffs on all 3 variants. 1200 barely makes that muhc of a difference, a slight torso twist or jig of the mech and they miss at range.

Compared to lasers? PPCs dont even compare....Theeir PPD advantage does in no way even begin to make up for their vast issues. And then, if that isnt enough, compared to lasers, PPCs have some seriously significant collision issues with terrain. THey cannot be fired over even the slightest bit of terrain, the shot comes anywhere near any kind of anything and they explode on the terrain. PPCs need a complete and total rework and buff.......

PPC: 10/10, 3.5s, 1300ms
ISERPPC: 10/12, 4s, 1300ms
CERPPC: 13/15, 4.25s, 1300ms

Quirk it up from there. Warhawk, Adder, SMR, HBR, 1350-1400ms, the rest, 1300. THen atleast they might stand a decent chance of hitting something from a few hundred meters.

THere really is no excuse for how PPCs are atm....COmpared to Lasers, its almost a comparison of a man with a Knife against an M1A2 Abrams...no match in any way, shape or form....

[LordKnightFandragon]

Bloodweaver, on 07 April 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

This is something I'd really like to see implemented for certain Clan variants only. It should be applicable to 'Mechs that not only use PPCs in their stock configurations, but use them almost exclusively. The builds that would justifiably receive this quirk? Stock Summoner Prime, Warhawk Prime, and Adder Prime. Three that have been underbalanced from their appearance in MWO up until this very day.

At bare minimum, a sliding scale of increasing damage accuracy per 'Mech would be nice - with Summoner Prime getting the full 15 points of damage(seeing as it can only carry one PPC), the Adder Prime getting 13 or 14 in the central hit, and the Warhawk Prime getting 12 or 13. Retention of lower arm actuators when using PPCs would be appreciated as well, especially in the Summoner.

Warhawk, Adder, Summoner should all get a totally new CERPPC variant, specific only to those mechs that is 15/15, 1300ms 4.5s CD.

PPCs in general all need to be a base of 1300 velocity. I recall at 1500 they were still tricksy to use, even at 1200 they are still near impossible to really do anything with.

[Nightmare1]

Soy, on 07 April 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

Enjoy constantly exposing that arm any good pilot will shoot it off.

When you talk about not wanting JJs and wanting more DHS for your prime Nova you're doing it wrong. You're trying to say that the mech is good at boulder humping. Great, that's cool, cept there's the Crow right above it that does it better cuz it has a borked hit box and won't lose that arm from a tilted alpha since you harp about exposing it and only it over and over behind a rock.

Pidgeonholing the mech into generic ML laser vomit poking is ******* trite. It misses the point of what the mech is capable of.

On the other hand, the A quirks understand the mech is a poptart. It plays upon that with PPC velocity, finally.

The irony is that the only quirks that synergize off the Prime are ML, which lead to the above. It ***** with other boats, like pulses. It lost a lot of torso turn rate which also ruins pulse boating for snap shot soaking. So the armor buff is a washout for that.

The mech is best as a ninja striker mech. I can't put it any other way.

Nova will get another tweak pass because of this very issue, I'm certain of this.

Your propensity to cuss hardly endears your opinion to me. It's actually been my experience that the more profane a person, the worse a pilot they are, almost as if they hope the cussing will compensate for their lack of expertise.

With regard to me doing it wrong, I must surely be doing something right to pull out the matches I have been. With regard to JJs versus DHS, I generally do not use the JJs enough to warrant them. Frankly, I like the stock loadout of the Nova Prime. Since CERMLs are not particularly easy to use in jump sniping, I would prefer the DHS. The latter fit my fighting style with that Mech more effectively than the JJs. As I stated previously, it depends on the Mech and what I hope to achieve with it. For you to claim that I'm, "Doing it wrong" is incredibly egotistical of you and rather moronic.

I never intended for this to get into a discussion about Crows versus Novas. I don't think that anyone here would dispute the current superiority of Crows versus Novas. My original post was a reply to another forum poster here, speaking in general terms to answer a general observation he made. It was neither intended to be detailed or perpetuating. You interjected yourself into our conversation with grandiose, blanket statements that ignored the nature and content of what had been said. In short, you are a troll.

As far as ninja goes, the Nova simply lacks the speed necessary. I've found that it works much better as a mid range skirmisher or fire support Mech. I've had many excellent matches when using it in this manner. To parrot you, "You must be doing something wrong" if you try to play it sas a ninja.

With regard to pigeonholing, I didn't do that at all. If you had paid attention, you would have realized that only one of my three variants is built around CERMLs. Thus, there is scarcely any CERML pigeonholing here. I actually do run CERPPCs on one of my Novas, something you would have realized if you had bothered to read two of my other posts.

I do hope that the Nova gets some tweaks that buff it, much as I hope that my Summoner does. My play style with that Mech chassis is not favored by the current quirks.

I am done replying to you now. It is evident that you do not bother to read or attempt to understand the things I say. You are content merely to spout off at the mouth and pontificate based on your own self-delusions. I have no time to waste on trolls such as you.

This pretty much sums up your argumentative style:

[Amardez]

Mike Forst, on 07 April 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

I don't have quirks that can modify C-ERPPC splash damage. In fact, I can't modify the damage value of any weapon at all through quirks.

Then you are making some bad choices with your base system aren't you. . . I had hoped you would be pulling out all the stops to get things balanced seeing as it seem to be a major focus why limit to range, speed, spread damages seems like a natural addition to the list.

Do you guys ever wish you could redesign the system you use, it seem to cause you a lot of issues and end up limiting things like Mech speed

[aniviron]

Nightmare1, on 07 April 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

And what would you consider a strong point? Frankly, being able to hide 90% of your Mech while shooting up someone else's Mech seems a strong point to me. I can testify that it works too.

Look, I know you like the Nova and all, but it's honestly not that good at corner peeking, not compared to other mechs with weapons in the arms. Do you want to know why? Because this idea that you can hide everything but the arm is an utter falsehood. You have to be able to see your target to shoot it; the reticle cannot be placed on your opponent in any other way. This means you need, at minimum, to expose 50% of your Nova to shoot around a corner, and you're as wide as an Awesome.

I think the Nova is trash, and yes I own all three and have them well past mastery. I'm willing to listen to people who say otherwise (Soy's Nova thread a while back in particular had some perspective-altering opinions) but when you say things like this it just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Here's your hypothetical situation where nothing but the arm is exposed, which would theoretically make the Nova a good corner peeker. Here it is again without moving the mouse or throttle, but in first person. Notice a problem?

This is what corner peeking looks like in first person. Here is what you're actually exposing, as seen in third person. Note that the mech's center line has to be around the corner for your to shoot.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but I am so so so so tired of hearing people go, "No, the Nova is fine! It makes such a good corner peeker!" No, no it doesn't. In fact, it is literally one of the worst corner peekers in the game because it is so wide. If you tried to do the same thing in a Stormcrow, you would expose far less of your mech to get the same shot. The only reason people corner peek in a Nova so often is because the arms are so low you simply do not have any other options for firing from partial cover.

[Duke Nedo]

aniviron, on 07 April 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

Look, I know you like the Nova and all, but it's honestly not that good at corner peeking, not compared to other mechs with weapons in the arms. Do you want to know why? Because this idea that you can hide everything but the arm is an utter falsehood. You have to be able to see your target to shoot it; the reticle cannot be placed on your opponent in any other way. This means you need, at minimum, to expose 50% of your Nova to shoot around a corner, and you're as wide as an Awesome.

I think the Nova is trash, and yes I own all three and have them well past mastery. I'm willing to listen to people who say otherwise (Soy's Nova thread a while back in particular had some perspective-altering opinions) but when you say things like this it just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Here's your hypothetical situation where nothing but the arm is exposed, which would theoretically make the Nova a good corner peeker. Here it is again without moving the mouse or throttle, but in first person. Notice a problem?

This is what corner peeking looks like in first person. Here is what you're actually exposing, as seen in third person. Note that the mech's center line has to be around the corner for your to shoot.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but I am so so so so tired of hearing people go, "No, the Nova is fine! It makes such a good corner peeker!" No, no it doesn't. In fact, it is literally one of the worst corner peekers in the game because it is so wide. If you tried to do the same thing in a Stormcrow, you would expose far less of your mech to get the same shot. The only reason people corner peek in a Nova so often is because the arms are so low you simply do not have any other options for firing from partial cover.

Don't jump to the conclusion that I am saying that the Nova is a good corner peeker, but you know it is perfectly possible to shoot in your first 3rd person screenshot. There's also the somewhat creative method of using a tag as laser sight and fire the other 5 lasers on the arm when the reticule turns red. In any case, this argument is too infected, the Nova is imo not a very good peeker of any kind, nor a good pop-tarter. I only have success with it when I manage to dance the midrange and avoid attention, then it can wreck face.

Anyways, I played my NVA-S a few games yesterday and had a blast with it. Still too slow OR too large to be really good, but that robot IS fun to play, very viable in puglandia but not a very useful CW robot. Because of the quirks I scrapped by 10x SPL boat for a full S omnipod 6x MPL, 4x MG build and it was actually better than anticipated. 5 kills/700 damage was the best match, average well above 500 dmg, an most importantly lots of fun. I may try the asymmetric 10x SPL build proposed by mgral in another thread for my -prime tonight.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 08 April 2015 - 12:15 AM.

[Detriitus]

Thank you for the changes to the Summoner and Adder, Mike.

I would like to line out a thought about the non-ERPPC energy quirks and build-diversity in general. I like the ERPPC quirk bundles on the Adder and Warhawk, because they adress the core points (speed and heat) in noticeable doses. I also like the Summoners ERPPC quirks (some heat reduction would be appreciated, of course) and in general this editions' ballistic quirk bundles that adress multiple issues within the same omnipod (general quirks and different weapon quirks to choose from). But the non-ERPPC energy options on the Adder/Summoner/Warhawk/Gargoyle (haven't had the time to study the other mechs) seem pointless in comparison: Some are even unimpressive AND focused on small weapon groups at the same time. Some of these mechs don't even have multiple energy-related omnipods that could stack in a bad way.

Focusing on both build diversity and the viability of these weaker mechs, I'd like to ask the following:
On the Adders multiple energy omnipods could stack, but the overall number of hardpoints is limited. Would you please consider to increase the values of the given general laser or energy quirks significantly so that we all can find out what happens when higher bonuses are stacked?
For the Warhawks the Cs left arm would offer a great opportunity to implement general laser duration and energy cooldown quirks instead of another ERPPC-quirk without the danger of stacking. Would you please consider giving the Warhawks this impulse for diversity?
For both the Gargoyle and the Summoner the Ds arms should offer significant energy/laser quirks to make up for the hardpoint placement. While specific quirks might be called for in case of the Gargoyle because of boating, the Summoner will always be hampered by its lack of hardpoints. Would you please consider giving the Summoner noticeable general energy/laser quirks (duration, heat, cooldown) so it can finally dance?

[Widowmaker1981]

Nightmare1, on 07 April 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

And what would you consider a strong point? Frankly, being able to hide 90% of your Mech while shooting up someone else's Mech seems a strong point to me. I can testify that it works too.

erm, minor point here but you actually need to expose over 50% of the nova to shoot either arm around cover, unless somehow you can shoot things you cant actually see? The cockpit has to be exposed or you cant see the target.

[Widowmaker1981]

Tarogato, on 07 April 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

I respectfully disagree. You'd simply have to use it differently. At least it would be unique in the game. It would have an exceedingly low profile (probably the height of the Adder at most) and probably very favourable hitboxes. Just because it can't torso twist properly don't mean it would be useless or even unviable. And don't expect it to be a competitively/meta mech, because it could never be that, no matter which way you model it.

You are insane. Its already painful driving a Dire due to its severely limited torso twist. NO torso twist? NONE? on a 50 tonner? that would be utterly unplayable. And being lower to the ground? ALSO BAD. The terrain in this game is not 100% flat, and when you are 2 inches from the floor your guns tend to hit every tiny hillock there is.. try using the KFX left arm energy points for reference.

[Tarogato]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 April 2015 - 01:29 AM, said:

You are insane. Its already painful driving a Dire due to its severely limited torso twist. NO torso twist? NONE? on a 50 tonner? that would be utterly unplayable. And being lower to the ground? ALSO BAD. The terrain in this game is not 100% flat, and when you are 2 inches from the floor your guns tend to hit every tiny hillock there is.. try using the KFX left arm energy points for reference.

I suppose you want all mechs to be identical, then, eh? Timber-metacheese, Dire-metacheese, Storm-metacheese, Nova-cheese, Ice-cheese, Thunder-cheese... ... such a shame.

[Widowmaker1981]

Tarogato, on 08 April 2015 - 01:33 AM, said:

I suppose you want all mechs to be identical, then, eh? Timber-metacheese, Dire-metacheese, Storm-metacheese, Nova-cheese, Ice-cheese, Thunder-cheese... ... such a shame.

No, not at all. I just recognise that Torso twist is vital for a mech to be usable in an FPS game (as opposed to a boardgame). Unusable mechs are a tad pointless, since they dont add any variety if no one ever uses them, do they?

[Nightmare1]

aniviron, on 07 April 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

Look, I know you like the Nova and all, but it's honestly not that good at corner peeking, not compared to other mechs with weapons in the arms. Do you want to know why? Because this idea that you can hide everything but the arm is an utter falsehood. You have to be able to see your target to shoot it; the reticle cannot be placed on your opponent in any other way. This means you need, at minimum, to expose 50% of your Nova to shoot around a corner, and you're as wide as an Awesome.

I think the Nova is trash, and yes I own all three and have them well past mastery. I'm willing to listen to people who say otherwise (Soy's Nova thread a while back in particular had some perspective-altering opinions) but when you say things like this it just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Here's your hypothetical situation where nothing but the arm is exposed, which would theoretically make the Nova a good corner peeker. Here it is again without moving the mouse or throttle, but in first person. Notice a problem?

This is what corner peeking looks like in first person. Here is what you're actually exposing, as seen in third person. Note that the mech's center line has to be around the corner for your to shoot.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but I am so so so so tired of hearing people go, "No, the Nova is fine! It makes such a good corner peeker!" No, no it doesn't. In fact, it is literally one of the worst corner peekers in the game because it is so wide. If you tried to do the same thing in a Stormcrow, you would expose far less of your mech to get the same shot. The only reason people corner peek in a Nova so often is because the arms are so low you simply do not have any other options for firing from partial cover.

Good grief! You didn't read anything I said.

*Gets out Crayons*

Alright, here's what happened:

Person 1 made a general observation and query about the Nova and its heat. I answered it with a general explanation and comparison. That should have been the end of the conversation.

Person 2 (Soy) interjects into our discussion and proceeds to lambaste me, much as you are, for stating that I would prefer the JJs be unlocked so that I could use extra DHS instead on one of my variants. We post back and forth a few times before I essentially tell him that he's a nut and that I'm done talking with him. That should have been the end of it.

Now you come in, latch onto something I said in irritation and a bit sarcastically, and proceed to get yourself all worked up into a lather over it. Get over yourself. Where do these ForumWarriors like you come from, and why do you feel the need to pontificate so arrogantly on so many subjects and conversations that don't even pertain to you?

The next time you feel the urge to butt in, go read the preceding conversations that occurred. Not only are you way off base with most of your accusations and criticisms against me, but you're making something of a fool of yourself in the process. This was never about the Nova as a chassis. It was never intended to be a defense of the chassis. Originally, all I ever wanted to do was clarify something for someone who asked a question about the chassis' heat. It's little forum chihuahuas like you and Soy that make me rub my temples and wonder why I ever even bother.

You're not worth any more of my time. Please stop trolling.

[Nightmare1]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 April 2015 - 01:16 AM, said:

erm, minor point here but you actually need to expose over 50% of the nova to shoot either arm around cover, unless somehow you can shoot things you cant actually see? The cockpit has to be exposed or you cant see the target.

Good grief, I'm talking about rocking out and rocking back. The Nova's profile and arm mounted weaponry allow it to rock out and back quickly. Everyone's having a cow over this; I didn't think I'd have to spell it out for everyone because it was so obvious!

The tip off should have been my initial comparison to the HBK. You can't fire around anything with anything in this game unless you rock out and back. The Nova, like the HBK, is good at peeking out to fire and then quickly getting back behind cover.

To everyone who is fussing at me for my choice of words: Get over yourself and actually think about what I mean. The initial post was typed quickly as a reply to someone because I was pressed for time.