359 replies to this topic

[DarkendMoon]

Reasons for failure.

1. Inner squabling - Power struggles for clan honor, I won't get into the specifics of how this effected the invasion. WAY to much to it.
2. Clan Batchall - They bid on who would invade and what forces they would use. Clan honor dictated that they do this and often they
were severly outnumberd due to this.
3. Tactics - The clans were the equivalent of british troops lining up and shooting at the other side while the other side wasn't going to stand there and get shot. Not to say the clans didn't have any tactics at all but honor dictated they fight 1 on 1 battles and the Inner Sphere did not have these limitations. Those Inner Sphere dogs would often use "Barbaric" tactis to win.
4. Numbers - You have to remember these were relativly small clans when compared to the inner sphere. It is like throwing a bees nest between several ant hills. The ants will take severe losses but will win in the end. That includes just the normal military guys with rocket launchers tanks ect...yeah a few troops won't make a difference but when you talking a war of attrition across several worlds I'm sure the losses due to them added up.
5. Enginuity - The clans were very traditional and did not think outside the box. This limited them in tactics as well as major overall strategy. So theres a MAD CAT coming right for us what are you going to do they demand we fight!! Well I dont' know fred we have all these explosives I say we drive a car into and blow it up save our mechs for another day.
6. Logistics - Invading while easier than being invaded (if your invaded your the ones loosing factories food supplies terrioty). The amout of distance they had to ship supplise was Insane this would take time and I imagine while I don't remember any specific instance of this they would have been in short supply of many things. Like when the Germans invaded Russia.


Yeah the clans were cool and honorable but honestly they had a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Not saying that the Inner Sphere didn't have any Cons associated with there side but once you corner someone they fight back. The Clans were lucky to get as far as they did, the only reason they did get that far was due to polics in the Inner Sphere.

Edited by DarkendMoon, 09 July 2012 - 02:46 AM.

[DarkendMoon]

I know the above statement does not cover EVERYTHING that would probalby be impossible but as a brief overview I think those are the major reasons for there loss.

[Steven Frost]

I think that for many of the clans flat out arrogance bit them on the ***, being used to resource saving "duel" type warfare ( clan homeworlds = low resource ,low population planets) they for the most part refused to adjust to the bitter total war of attrition the inner sphere was used to. Also while they were moving fast, the logistics of supplying thier forces at the much higher rate such warfare use's was going to crash them soon or late. remember fighting on average 2.5 to 5 times your strength( taken from books, rules etc..) to destruction instead of defeat, burns thru those muntions, medical supplies and repair parts fast, win or lose.
Then you get an enemy who not only see's your problems, and your huge blind spot , but who sucessfully exploits those weaknesse

[Jaroth Corbett]

Arctic Fox, on 08 July 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

I think you're confusing 'units' with 'troops'. I was comparing the manpower employed on both sides, not the amount of combat units.

Just got home from work. I am reviewing the info from Invading Clans, starting with the Ghost Bears as they are first. I am compiling everything onto a spreadsheet. However looking over the basic stats, it would be units not troops, that would be what to look at. If 5 troops are assigned to an armored vehicle, it is still one main unit. Suppose the tires & weapons were disabled, the people operating it might still be alive but they would have been rendered inoperable. I am not an Aerospace guy but I believe there are fighters that hold one pilot & some that hold two. At the end of the day, a fighter is a fighter, it is one unit used in battle.

You may be right, in that Comstar had more people but I am looking at in terms of units being brought to bear against each other on the battlefield.

Still reviewing..............

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 09 July 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Hunson Abadeer, on 08 July 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Clan Jade Falcon ... 952 'Mechs (Jade Falcon Sourcebook)
Clan Wolf ... 807 'Mechs (Wolf Clan Sourcebook)
Clan Nova Cat ... 560 'Mechs (Invading Clans)

Edit: Invading Clans gives the impression that the listed units are post-Tukayyid, but the Wolf Clan Sourcebook specifically states that the units list is from just prior to Tukayyid.

Provide the page where the Wolf Sourcebook says so please. I believe you are wrong because in the same Wolf Sourcebook it makes mention of the battles fought on Tukayyid. The first report for the Ghost Bears has the 3rd Striker Cluster of Beta Galaxy assisting Delta Galaxy. However upon looking at the Invading Clans front line summary for the Bears, there is no 3rd Striker Cluster which means they either got wiped out on Tukayyid or suffered losses so severe, that the leadership thought it better to merge the survivors into other units rather than rebuild it. Which would mean that the units listed in Invading Clans is post-Tukayyid.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Jaroth Winson, on 10 July 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

Provide the page where the Wolf Sourcebook says so please. I believe you are wrong because in the same Wolf Sourcebook it makes mention of the battles fought on Tukayyid. The first report for the Ghost Bears has the 3rd Striker Cluster of Beta Galaxy assisting Delta Galaxy. However upon looking at the Invading Clans front line summary for the Bears, there is no 3rd Striker Cluster which means they either got wiped out on Tukayyid or suffered losses so severe, that the leadership thought it better to merge the survivors into other units rather than rebuild it. Which would mean that the units listed in Invading Clans is post-Tukayyid.

As I said, Invading Clans is post-Tukayyid based on what it says, but the Wolf Clan Sourcebook says, "The tables reflect the Wolf touman as of 15 April 3052, two weeks before the Tukayyid campaign" (pp. 70).

[Jaroth Corbett]

Cool. Thanks.

[Vodkavaiator]

DarkendMoon, on 09 July 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

4. Numbers - You have to remember these were relativly small clans when compared to the inner sphere. It is like throwing a bees nest between several ant hills. The ants will take severe losses but will win in the end. That includes just the normal military guys with rocket launchers tanks ect...yeah a few troops won't make a difference but when you talking a war of attrition across several worlds I'm sure the losses due to them added up.
6. Logistics - Invading while easier than being invaded (if your invaded your the ones loosing factories food supplies terrioty). The amout of distance they had to ship supplise was Insane this would take time and I imagine while I don't remember any specific instance of this they would have been in short supply of many things. Like when the Germans invaded Russia.

I think these two reasons along with the cultural/national allegiance(as in why would the people of the IS necessarily accept the clans as their rightful rules merely because their governments lost the war?) are two of the main reasons why logically the clans pretty much were doomed to lose from the start.

Just look at our own history for some great examples: German losing WWII is a great example of how logistics and numbers are terribly important. Furthermore there are many recent examples of how you can win the conventional war but still not manage to defeat an enemy such as Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan. In both cases the conventional battle was won but it did not mean that resistance ended or that the invading force could really declare a victory.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 10 July 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[ShadowDarter]

Renaissance, on 01 July 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

The Clans simply were not up to the task of maintaining a protracted war. The Crusaders thought it would be easy. They surprise the IS, cut deep into the territory, annihilate or cripple the factions, and take Terra. Then they would have been greeted as liberators and superior combatants with superior technology and the IS would have recognized how wrong they were and would have willingly changed their ways under the leadership of the Clanners.

Unfortunately, reality does not work like that. If a foreign invasion force shows up and starts playing King of the Hill... regardless of whether or not you're satisfied with your current government or political climate, you'll hate them even more and will put your current business on hold to take care of these outsiders. You won't greet the Clanners as liberators who can show you the proper way to live your life, you won't accept their form of society as your own -- and even if you did, you'd more or less be subservient to the vat babies and become part of the peasantry, or a second-class citizen at best.

The IS did not share the Clanners' views of honor and breeding and whatnot. Those who live by the sword, die by the gun. Even if the Clanners conquered Terra, the IS would not shrug their shoulders and admit the Clans were superior. They would have done every thing conceivable to drive them away, even if it meant attrition or salting the earth so they wouldn't even be satisfied with holding Terra.

Tukayyid was another massive reminder that the Clans under-estimated the IS while they were caught up in their own superiority complex out in the Pentagon Worlds. The ComGuard was not something they were expecting, and the ComGuard did not suffer from the technological degradation the rest of the IS did during the Succession Wars, where infrastructure and manufacturing were primarily targeted and people simply became unable to hold onto the knowledges, sciences, and skills needed to operate the [formerly] advanced technology. As a result, the ComGuard not only had superior numbers, tactics, and strategy, their LosTech they had access to put them on par against ClanTech, especially since the IS had a very long time to study the Clans and how best to counter them.

The Clans simply did not have a chance. They were extremely out-of-touch with the rest of the IS. They created their own little reality inside their heads regarding their beliefs and convictions, and their society nurtured that. Unfortunately, that still meant they were out-of-touch. They could never conceivably take and hold territory. It was always going to come down to the Clan Invasion being a flash in the pan, the only variable would have been just how big the flash was. They did not have the numbers, the logistics, or the strategies needed to dominate the Inner Sphere. They were self-righteous Zealots who believed in a reality that didn't exist.

All that really mattered was the IS getting to know the Clans. Sure, the first blitz devastated. But once the IS started getting their hands on ClanTech, started reverse-engineering it. Once they started getting prisoners to interrogate, and started finding out more about the Clans. Once they really started to know their enemy, they exploited every weakness they could. And they won.

The Clanners are a classic example of what happens when delusional leaders brainwash their people into starting a war, and expect to win based entirely on their delusions. You bring up a society that steadfastly believes 2+2=5, and will viciously murder millions of people for those beliefs, then you pick a fight with the rest of reality who knows 2+2=4... and you're going to lose no matter what kind of resources you have.

They simply could never have won, and even in the impossible situation where they would win militarily? Their idea of victory conditions simply would never have been met. Noone in the IS would have accepted the test tube babies as their overlords.

And its also good to note that the Mechwariors of the innersphere were not fighting for territory or personal gain, but for their families their friends and homes, when you have all of that at stake. then nothing short of death will stop you.

[FireNova]

ShadowDarter, on 12 July 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

And its also good to note that the Mechwariors of the innersphere were not fighting for territory or personal gain, but for their families their friends and homes, when you have all of that at stake. then nothing short of death will stop you.

Lol, too bad the IS was too stupid to realize the TRUE enemy of humanity huh? You know, ive got to hand it to ComStar/WoB. The ability to use the media to lie, manipulate, distort, and portray illusions of who the enemy is to distract the attention from themselves is nothing short of pure genious.

It just baffles my mind sometimes.......but hey..."Control the media, control the minds of the people."

[Maurdakar]

Because the trashborns were not ready for a real drawn out war, a war which they made was clear was one of survival then expected the houses to act honourably, they had no experience governing territory they took and they overestimated their warrior culture. Humility is your greatest shield, and the Clanners for all their honor, have none.

Their element of surprise wore off after a few planets and their superior tech advantage was gone after they lost even a few battles (and had their mechs scuttled). Then they were vastly outnumbered by Mechs and pilots who while less skilled for the most part, hung on tooth and nail too their homes in a war for survival.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Hunson Abadeer, on 10 July 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

As I said, Invading Clans is post-Tukayyid based on what it says, but the Wolf Clan Sourcebook says, "The tables reflect the Wolf touman as of 15 April 3052, two weeks before the Tukayyid campaign" (pp. 70).

OK after looking at everything, I still have to hold to my point. In regards to actual human beings, Comstar may have indeed outnumbered the Clans ( though I still will not concede ALL of the Clans) but in terms of fighting units, no. Also the Wolf Sourcebook speaks about Clan Wolf's touman specifically, so you cannot use it for the other clans. The stats listed in Invading Clans as you yourself stated, are post-Tukayyid.

[Jukebox1986]

We will kick their *** while chewing this gum.
And thats all!

[Hunson Abadeer]

Jaroth Winson, on 12 July 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

OK after looking at everything, I still have to hold to my point. In regards to actual human beings, Comstar may have indeed outnumbered the Clans ( though I still will not concede ALL of the Clans) but in terms of fighting units, no. Also the Wolf Sourcebook speaks about Clan Wolf's touman specifically, so you cannot use it for the other clans. The stats listed in Invading Clans as you yourself stated, are post-Tukayyid.

The numbers for Clan Wolf are pre-Tukayyid, and the numbers from Invading Clans were post-Tukayyid. There is no reason to believe that any of the other invading Clans would have had much larger forces than Wolf pre-Tukayyid.

Warriors of Kerensky says that there were only 110,000 warriors in all of the Clans in 3062 (pp. 37). If you assume that Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat fit into the average of the other Clans and work backwards to 3050 using the population growth numbers (2.35%) and the proportion of warriors, you still only end up with about 95,000 warriors for all sixteen Clans in 3050.

In 3050, the 12th Army of the Com Guards included 447 'Mechs, 205 tanks, 234 aerospace fighters, and 11,480 infantry, which gives you about ~13,000 people assuming the average tank has a 4-person crew. That is using the units listed in 20 Year Update (pp. 71). That gives you one army out of twelve being equal to nearly 14% of the entire warrior caste in 3050.

It also needs to be said that Clan Jade Falcon had the highest known number of 'Mechs in its front-line units (952), which was presumably pre-Tukayyid as Clan Wolf had 807 two weeks before Tukayyid. Even if they had ~5,000 'Mechs in front-line units for all invaders, the 12th Army alone had ~9% of that number.

It would take time to crunch all of the numbers, which I am not wont to do, but it seems reasonable to think that: A] the Com Guards fielded more combatants of all sorts than the entirety of the Clans; B] the Com Guards fielded as many, if not more, 'Mechs than the invading Clans.

Edited by Hunson Abadeer, 12 July 2012 - 03:05 PM.

[Chuggernaut]

FireNova, on 12 July 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Lol, too bad the IS was too stupid to realize the TRUE enemy of humanity huh? You know, ive got to hand it to ComStar/WoB. The ability to use the media to lie, manipulate, distort, and portray illusions of who the enemy is to distract the attention from themselves is nothing short of pure genious.

It just baffles my mind sometimes.......but hey..."Control the media, control the minds of the people."

The fascist, eugenics-practicing organization that enforces institutionalized discrimination based on birth and a rigid Caste system is a different kind of bad than WoB, but to say that the Clans were a "distraction" is pretty goofy.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Hunson Abadeer, on 12 July 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

The numbers for Clan Wolf are pre-Tukayyid, and the numbers from Invading Clans were post-Tukayyid. There is no reason to believe that any of the other invading Clans would have had much larger forces than Wolf pre-Tukayyid.

There is no reason to say they did not either. For example, according to the Warden Clans Field Manual Pg.85:

Quote

Clan Ghost Bear boasts the largest military force among the Clans: five front-line Galaxies & eight second-line Galaxies. Including the elite Keshiks, the Clan has a Touman of roughly fift-eight Clusters. The Clan has assembled this massive army through slow & steady build-up.

Who is to say if they could have this size after Tukayyid, they could not have had the same size or greater before?

Quote

It would take time to crunch all of the numbers, which I am not wont to do, but it seems reasonable to think that: A) the Com Guards fielded more combatants of all sorts than the entirety of the Clans; the Com Guards fielded as many, if not more, 'Mechs than the invading Clans.

Wrong.

With no definite stats besides the Wolves, we cannot accurately say what were the exact composition of forces that each Clan had just before Tukayyid. Also keep in mind due to bidding not all units would see action.

Quote

Khan Osis underbid his forces in order to be the first on the ground but it cost the Clan dearly.

- Era Report 3052 - Pg.54

Given the lengths to which the Smoke Jagurs went through to ensure they got in on Operation Revival,

Quote

Clan Smoke Jaguar emerged first from the bidding process by slashing their initial eleven-Galaxy bid to three.

- Invading Clans - Pg.18

who knows how many actual fighting units were available?

For example, this is what the Ghost Bear forces are in Invading Clans which should be right after Tukayyid:




This is what they looked like a few years later:

Quote

Alpha Galaxy - 19 Trinaries

Beta Galaxy - 21 Trinaries

Delta Galaxy - 23 Trinaries

Rho Galaxy - 22 Trinaries

Omega Galaxy - 18 Trinaries

Zeta Galaxy - 20 Trinaries

Theta Galaxy - 20 Trinaries

Kappa Galaxy - 18 Trinaries

Xi Galaxy - 15 Trinaries

Omicron Galaxy - 16 Trinaries

Pi Galaxy - 22 Trinaries

Sigma Galaxy - 21 Trinaries

Tau Galaxy - 22 Trinaries

Which brings me back to the question I posed a bit higher.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 12 July 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[Thanatos676]

Zellbrigen...that is why they lost...

The honor duels that clans were taught was the way to fight held no water in the IS.

[Xevian Flux]

Please also remember that "The Clans" does not accurately describe... well, the Clans. Each clan has its own agenda, and even factions within each clan. I would like to point out that the ilKhan for the clans at the time of the Battle for Tukayyid was a member of the Warden faction of Clan Wolf, who did not even want to conquer the IS like the Crusader faction did. The Wardens saw themselves as the defenders of the Inner Sphere, not conquerors. Many credit the "superior tactics" of the Precentor Martial who led the Comstar forces for this decisive battle, but remember that Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon actually achieved their assigned objectives during the struggle. The other clans were defeated because they were unable to adapt to the IS tactics of drawn-out warfare instead of toe-to-toe, winner take all skirmishes.


P.S.: Through the Clans' bidding process, the Wolf Clan forces were not allowed to drop onto Tukayyid until 5 days (I think) after the initial assault... food for thought.

Edited by Xevian Flux, 12 July 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[the kack]

1.) Didn't Kurita or another house cause disruption by attacking supply lines in the back?

2.) Clans did not have air superiority. If anything the edge went to the houses because they used air assets in a more complete way and they had more experience where the clan air assets were usually the first to be bid away thus not getting the experience that inner sphere fighter pilots got.

3.) The Clans got greedy. They fought not one enemy but everyone but themselves.

4.) You don't stop a blitz attack. When they stopped their entire moment was lost. Tactics or not they screwed up by temporarily halting the invasion.

Makes for good reading.

Edited by the kack, 12 July 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[Xevian Flux]

the kack, on 12 July 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

1.) Didn't Kurita or another house cause disruption by attacking supply lines in the back?

2.) Clans did not have air superiority. If anything the edge went to the houses because they used air assets in a more complete way and they had more experience where the clan air assets were usually the first to be bid away thus not getting the experience that inner sphere fighter pilots got.

3.) The Clans got greedy. They fought not one enemy but everyone but themselves.

4.) You don't stop a blitz attack. When they stopped their entire moment was lost. Tactics or not they screwed up by temporarily halting the invasion.

Makes for good reading.

1.) Kurita did do some raiding behind the Nova Cat/Smoke Jaguar invasion corridor, however this had little impact on the actual Trial of Possession for Terra. Since the clans bid their resources before the battle, they pretty much hamstrung themselves in that instance.

2.) True

3.) True, except, they were fighting themselves too.

4.) They "had" to stop, because the ilKhan that started the invasion, a Smoke Jag if I recall, was killed in action and the Clans had to assemble to elect a new one. The new ilKhan was a Wolf Clan warden who didn't want to continue the invasion, and so agreed to Comstar's "Trial of Possession" gambit.