186 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Bush Hopper, on 15 April 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

And there you are wrong: heavies' role is not to have mobility and firepower. Neither in the BT canon nor in the lore or in the novels. Nowhere (and that for a good reason) - just in MWO. Also arguing that queue lengths are no indicator of what class offers the most...are you new to online games (not meant as an insult but an honest question)? Anyway, I won't argue about that topic anymore. To each his own opinion

Please define the role of the Timber Wolf, the Cataphract, the Marauder, the Warhammer, and other heavy mechs was in BT canon...

I am curious to hear your interpretation of how stock heavy mechs that move the same speed (or faster) than most medium mechs are defined by role...

You are missing the reality that in TT, you only ran lights or mediums because you could not afford heavy or assault mechs. If you could afford all assault mechs...you ran all assault mechs. Why would you not? 50-ish kph versus 64 kph for twice the firepower...? Who does not make that trade?

In clans, you sacrifice more mobility, but you gain epic amounts of firepower. Clans in TT were insane though...

[Weeny Machine]

Gyrok, on 15 April 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

Please define the role of the Timber Wolf, the Cataphract, the Marauder, the Warhammer, and other heavy mechs was in BT canon...

I am curious to hear your interpretation of how stock heavy mechs that move the same speed (or faster) than most medium mechs are defined by role...

You are missing the reality that in TT, you only ran lights or mediums because you could not afford heavy or assault mechs.  If you could afford all assault mechs...you ran all assault mechs.  Why would you not?  50-ish kph versus 64 kph for twice the firepower...?  Who does not make that trade?

In clans, you sacrifice more mobility, but you gain epic amounts of firepower.  Clans in TT were insane though...

Ok, but before that show me the "most medium mechs" which are slower than a Marauder or Cataphract haha

[InspectorG]

Another factor is the maps.

Most do not favor Lights.

Small maps require no recon, so there is one less purpose for lights.
Spawn points are fairly predictable.
Pug march to the center...you know lights will get there first.

Now if we had maps x4 size of Alpine with the terrain of River Ciry NASCAR, lights would be scouts and nasty skirmishers.
But we dont.

Current MWO maps/objectives are damage>all
Lights output the least damage and can absorb the least. They live by speed and agility.

And IMO, heavies and assaults are too agile.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Bush Hopper, on 15 April 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

Ok, but before that show me the "most medium mechs" which are slower than a Marauder or Cataphract haha

I believe the key phrase, which you oddly omitted was "as fast as".

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hunchback
http://www.sarna.net...ion_(BattleMech)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vindicator
http://www.sarna.net...ack_(BattleMech)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Enforcer

Edited by Mirumoto Izanami, 15 April 2015 - 07:02 AM.

[xMintaka]

Bush Hopper, on 15 April 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

Ok, but before that show me the "most medium mechs" which are slower than a Marauder or Cataphract haha

Just from the mechs we have in MWO:

Hunchback
Centurion
Enforcer
Vindicator

They all have the same top speed as the Marauder and Cataphract.

Then there are the lights (Raven, Panther, Commando)...

[Ghogiel]

People often forget the Blackjack.

[Jacobei]

I just want to be clear that this is just light mech pub chat with some heavies trying to pick bar fights (typical )

There was some great ideas, suggestions and feedback, thank you!

Please don't get to heated on any subject the thread is not directly about UP or OP or nerfing anything. Its just about the light mech pilot experience - chat.

Edited by Jacobei, 15 April 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Koniving, on 13 April 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Stock? Decent.
The MWO cheese builds in BT? Akin to 6 MPL, twin AMS and 2 ML, it's got a BV of 1,320 with a 280 XL engine.

Quirked in MWO? Well the BV of the MWO style would be (by adding enough weapons to fire as many times in 10 seconds as can be done in MWO) is 2,520. That's for a non-quirked Firestarter S. Add in the MPL quirks and the BV is 2746...

The actual tonnage required to make a firestarter do what it is does in MWO? 92.5 tons and that's with Endo Steel and XL engine.

I dunno why you quoted me, I hadn't mentioned anything about Battle Value. I said "lower mech value". Is your mech ****? Bring more of them.

Only got 20 tons to your name? Well that other guy just brought 100 tons. Why not bring 4 more of yours, eh?

I'm well aware of what it carries stock.

Well I equated any system of "Mech value" to be relative to BT's BV. If it isn't what you meant I apologize. To make the FS a MWO equivalent, the same would have to be done for all the others, so it is a wash.

We just can't equate Mechs that way in MWO, as you noted, otherwise, 1 100 tonner should garner the other Team 5 20 tonners. In MWO, that 100t Mech would be no Match for those 4 20t Mechs, even if the BV's added up right.

Mech value is in the eye of the Pilot.

Stock stats noted for comparative purposes only.

Edited by Almond Brown, 15 April 2015 - 11:09 AM.

[Burktross]

operatorZ, on 14 April 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

and this is predicated on what? the idea that lights are UP? What Elo are you playing at? I consistently see light mechs as the top or near the top damage in almost every match.

Because only the dedicated elites of lights play lights

[Gyrok]

Bush Hopper, on 15 April 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

Ok, but before that show me the "most medium mechs" which are slower than a Marauder or Cataphract haha

Centurion
Hunchback
Trebuchet
Blackjack
Vindicator
Kintaro
I
All those are the same speed basically as the heavy mechs. I do not have time to give you a list of every medium mech, suffice to say, even some lights all move at that speed, like the panther and hollander

[Koniving]

Almond Brown, on 15 April 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Mech value is in the eye of the Pilot.

It is true that for many mechs, their value is in the eye of the pilot.
This makes it pretty hard to quantify.

But for me, if the mech's hardpoints equate to about 4 weapons and your armor can only hold about 5 tons, while the player on the other side pit against you at "equal skill" has a machine that has 10 weapons, better cooling, and 14 tons of armor.... I view the lesser mech as being of a lower value.

I know it's shallow but just using the above example, lets say Team A has 4 of the 5 ton armor mechs and 1 of the 14 ton armor mechs. The other team has 3 of the 14 ton armor mechs and only 2 of the 5 ton armor mechs.

4 lights + 1 assault
versus
3 assaults + 2 lights.
It doesn't matter how good or bad the mech is or what it's capable of, you may notice there's only 5 players per team and thus 5 mechs per team.

What I'm saying is what if the value of the mech could determine how many you could bring?
8 lights + 1 assault
3 assaults + 4 lights.
Pretty rudimentary but now you have 9 versus 7. Still hardly fair but it's a thought nonetheless.

Now because of the screwed up way this game is made, even with 5 tons of armor you can be killed in a single shot by that bigger mech. Sure it might take just the right angle or some other silliness, but ultimately the fact remains that it's possible to die in a single blow.

That doesn't matter in Battletech because it is true of every single mech. Every mech could be killed in a single shot. (Cockpit shot, 3 structure + 9 armor = 12 damage needed). This isn't true here in MWO. Only the tiny mechs can be killed in a single shot, and not just by the lucky cockpit shot (in fact most light mechs can survive a cockpit shot (15 structure + 18 armor = 35) better than they can a side torso shot (using a Locust, 16 front armor + 10 structure = 26)... this... this is absolutely insane. There is no logical reason for this.

Thus, those mechs with 5 tons of armor (actually less than 4.5 tons is the max) have significantly lower value.

In Battletech, (yeah now I am referencing BV), with Battle Value or price, you had some way of knowing how good or worthless your mech is believed to be and could bring more to assist it.

In MWO... One mech per player. Or in CW 4 mechs per player. Could bring 4 assault mechs or 4 lights.

How is that fair?

Now granted quirks have made things wonky (as has ridiculous speeds, PP FLD, etc)... but the disparity is there and you can't use the mechs for their intended purpose. The Raven 4X was actually a brawling design. Bet you'd laugh at that. What it had over other mechs was vastly superior armor for a 35 ton mech, rivaled almost exclusively by the Jenner F...which didn't have torso twist.

Shadowhawks aren't used for scouting. Jagermechs can't shoot down aircraft despite being an anti-aircraft mech. Firestarters and Blackjacks aren't being sent after vehicles and infantry. There's no helicopters flying through the air. Stalkers aren't being used as battering rams to bulldoze through base walls. Wolverines aren't smashing in cockpits with their fists. Adders make poor snipers in this game where in the source material they are excellent, but then again a single shot from the Adder can't kill. Even a double shot can't. And is it any wonder these mechs have problems or have weird uses?

Most Locusts and the Jenner D have identical armor. Two of the four main variants of Commando we have also have identical armor, as does the Cicada, and some Shadowhawks have only 0.5 tons more armor but vastly superior weaponry. That should put them at about the same value with the Shadowhawk's structure and weaponry making it the better scout, recon and forward artillery spotter it's meant to be. But with customization and all this other stuff, a huge disparity begins to exist. The Locust is utter crap compared to the others (without quirks), dead in a single blow.

That's what I'm trying to refer to. Where in BT you could bring more of the lower quality (to avoid confusion) mechs, in MWO it's one mech per player.

(Noticed a missing word, put it in. It's not in Gyrok's quote. )
Btw Thanks Gyrok.

Edited by Koniving, 15 April 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Gyrok]

Koniving, on 15 April 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

It is true that for many mechs, their value is in the eye of the pilot.
This makes it pretty hard to quantify.

But for me, if the mech's hardpoints equate to about 4 weapons and your armor can only hold about 5 tons, while the player on the other side pit against you at "equal skill" has a machine that has 10 weapons, better cooling, and 14 tons of armor.... I view the lesser mech as being of a lower value.

I know it's shallow but just using the above example, lets say Team A has 4 of the 5 ton armor mechs and 1 of the 14 ton armor mechs. The other team has 3 of the 14 ton armor mechs and only 2 of the 5 ton armor mechs.

4 lights + 1 assault
versus
3 assaults + 2 lights.
It doesn't matter how good or bad the mech is or what it's capable of, you may notice there's only 5 players per team and thus 5 mechs per team.

What I'm saying is what if the value of the mech could determine how many you could bring?
8 lights + 1 assault
3 assaults + 4 lights.
Pretty rudimentary but now you have 9 versus 7. Still hardly fair but it's a thought nonetheless.

Now because of the screwed up way this game is made, even with 5 tons of armor you can be killed in a single shot by that bigger mech. Sure it might take just the right angle or some other silliness, but ultimately the fact remains that it's possible to die in a single blow.

That doesn't matter in Battletech because it is true of every single mech. Every mech could be killed in a single shot. (Cockpit shot, 3 structure + 9 armor = 12 damage needed). This isn't true here in MWO. Only the tiny mechs can be killed in a single shot, and not just by the lucky cockpit shot (in fact most light mechs can survive a cockpit shot (15 structure + 18 armor = 35) better than they can a side torso shot (using a Locust, 16 front armor + 10 structure = 26)... this... this is absolutely insane. There is no logical reason for this.

Thus, those mechs with 5 tons of armor (actually less than 4.5 tons is the max) have significantly lower value.

In Battletech, (yeah now I am referencing BV), with Battle Value or price, you had some way of knowing how good or worthless your mech is believed to be and could bring more to assist it.

In MWO... One mech per player. Or in CW 4 mechs per player. Could bring 4 assault mechs or 4 lights.

How is that fair?

Now granted quirks have made things wonky (as has ridiculous speeds, PP FLD, etc)... but the disparity is there and you can't use the mechs for their intended purpose. The Raven 4X was actually a brawling design. Bet you'd laugh at that. What it had over other mechs was vastly superior armor for a 35 ton mech, rivaled almost exclusively by the Jenner F...which didn't have torso twist.

Shadowhawks aren't used for scouting. Jagermechs can't shoot down aircraft despite being an anti-aircraft mech. Firestarters and Blackjacks aren't being sent after vehicles and infantry. There's no helicopters flying through the air. Stalkers aren't being used as battering rams to bulldoze through base walls. Wolverines aren't smashing in cockpits with their fists. Adders make poor snipers in this game where in the source material they are excellent, but then again a single shot from the Adder can't kill. Even a double shot can't. And is it any wonder these mechs have problems or have weird uses?

Most Locusts and the Jenner D have identical armor. Two of the four main variants we have also have identical armor, as does the Cicada, and some Shadowhawks have only 0.5 tons more armor but vastly superior weaponry. That should put them at about the same value with the Shadowhawk's structure and weaponry making it the better scout, recon and forward artillery spotter it's meant to be. But with customization and all this other stuff, a huge disparity begins to exist. The Locust is utter crap compared to the others (without quirks), dead in a single blow.

That's what I'm trying to refer to. Where in BT you could bring more of the lower quality (to avoid confusion) mechs, in MWO it's one mech per player.

Good post.

[Krivvan]

The True Space Pope, on 11 April 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

The Space Pope understands that the people can have differing views, but he really can't see in what situation anyone would bet against a Firestarter when it is fighting another light mech (unless you are examining to pilots of marked skill difference).

The Firestarter is amazing, but mainly in the context of teams. In a 1v1, I think I can show you a Light mech that can stand up to it.

[Krivvan]

Oh, and as for my opinion on Lights.

They may be slighlty UP at some levels of the game, but for the most part they're pretty strong. They're a force multiplier. They are very important for teams winning games and can put out insane damage higher than the rest of the team, but they require the right situations and don't usually do it alone.

And addressing the thread starter, the Spider is one of the worst Lights in the game. The Kit Fox is more of a Light/Medium hybrid (it goes too slow) and in that role the Urbanmech even does it better. The Raven is a good Light though, especially the 2X and sometimes the 4X in niche situations.

The Firestarter is unquestionably one of if not the best Light mech in the game. The fact that you think it's too hot indicates that you don't really understand how to play Light mechs to me. You want to stack your firepower such that you can do a lot of damage before spending your repositioning time cooling off. If you think playing Light mechs means running around in circles around bigger mechs or running through entire teams without a care in the world, then you're doing it really wrong and are just getting away with doing dumb things.

You do less damage on paper in a Light, but you get more opportunities to shoot and you are far less likely to get caught out of position making it safer to play a Light than an Assault in some ways but not in others.

It's important to keep in mind that fast-mover Light mechs have the distinction of being the only mechs in the game that can actually flank safely and quickly take advantage of situations. This means that they are often absolutely essential to the outcome of games even when you take scouting out of the equation entirely.

Edited by Krivvan, 15 April 2015 - 11:56 AM.

[Gyrok]

Krivvan, on 15 April 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

Oh, and as for my opinion on Lights.

They may be slighlty UP at some levels of the game, but for the most part they're pretty strong. They're a force multiplier. They are very important for teams winning games and can put out insane damage higher than the rest of the team, but they require the right situations and don't usually do it alone.

And addressing the thread starter, the Spider is one of the worst Lights in the game. The Kit Fox is more of a Light/Medium hybrid (it goes too slow) and in that role the Urbanmech even does it better. The Raven is a good Light though, especially the 2X and sometimes the 4X in niche situations.

The Firestarter is unquestionably one of if not the best Light mech in the game. The fact that you think it's too hot indicates that you don't really understand how to play Light mechs to me. You want to stack your firepower such that you can do a lot of damage before spending your repositioning time cooling off. If you think playing Light mechs means running around in circles around bigger mechs or running through entire teams without a care in the world, then you're doing it really wrong and are just getting away with doing dumb things.

You do less damage on paper in a Light, but you get more opportunities to shoot and you are far less likely to get caught out of position making it safer to play a Light than an Assault in some ways but not in others.

It's important to keep in mind that fast-mover Light mechs have the distinction of being the only mechs in the game that can actually flank safely and quickly take advantage of situations. This means that they are often absolutely essential to the outcome of games even when you take scouting out of the equation entirely.

Eloquently worded, and on point.

Nice post Krivvan.

[Escef]

Bush Hopper, on 15 April 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

And there you are wrong: heavies' role is not to have mobility and firepower. Neither in the BT canon nor in the lore or in the novels. Nowhere (and that for a good reason) - just in MWO.

Many table top players gravitate towards heavies as the best mixture of speed, firepower, and armor. Mediums have largely taken on the old light roles of skirmisher, striker, and harasser. Most assaults in table top get used as long range support, because their lack of speed gets them savaged in brawling engagements. Lights tend to be ultra-fast skirmishers, high-mobility snipers, electronics warfare, and C3 spotters.

[Jacobei]

Escef, on 15 April 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

Many table top players gravitate towards heavies as the best mixture of speed, firepower, and armor. Mediums have largely taken on the old light roles of skirmisher, striker, and harasser. Most assaults in table top get used as long range support, because their lack of speed gets them savaged in brawling engagements. Lights tend to be ultra-fast skirmishers, high-mobility snipers, electronics warfare, and C3 spotters.

What is the table top game. How does it dictate MWO?

I have heard of it and only read the books and watch the TV series and had the toys.. Long story short..

Med and Lights were used the most in larger numbers

Heavies and Assaults were used for warfare, attacking.

Most common was a drop ship with a few heavies and maybe a assault or medium also .. they storm a city with lights defending maybe a few meds, and infantry, jets, tanks... etc

MWO style is only repeating the most hardcore MW experience of mass warfare.

Edited by Jacobei, 15 April 2015 - 06:22 PM.

[Escef]

Jacobei, on 15 April 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

What is the table top game. How does it dictate MWO?

I was responding to someone who obviously did not know his lore and was trying to use his flawed perception of it to justify his opinions. No where did I attempt to bring MWO into that.

[Jacobei]

Escef, on 15 April 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I was responding to someone who obviously did not know his lore and was trying to use his flawed perception of it to justify his opinions. No where did I attempt to bring MWO into that.

Do you play a table top version of MWO?

[Escef]

Jacobei, on 15 April 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Do you play a table top version of MWO?

It's called Battletech. And I started playing it in '87.

Quickstart rules: http://d15yciz5bluc8...ules.pdf?bdd337

Java-based unofficial recreation of table top: http://megamek.info/

Edited by Escef, 15 April 2015 - 07:22 PM.