89 replies to this topic

[pulupulu]

Against 1 madcat isn't scary at all.

Poping over the hill and see 6+ madcats in CW on the other hand...

[Tarogato]

Timberwolfs don't even scare my Urbie. I aim for the ears. Even the all-energy builds still have prominent ears that you can hit from just about any angle. Half a Timbergod is half as scary and twice as easy to take down. =D

[Cementi]

I do not understand the timbergod posts either......just blow its ears off. Problem solved. Yes I know I am currently Clan at the time of this post. I am actually in a merc company and honestly prefer IS mechs we are just on a Clan contract at the moment and believe it or not but the "Timbergod" is not even in my drop deck. Hellbringer's and Stormcrow's for me.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 14 April 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

Gyrok, man…listen to yourself. You know me dude, you know I’m the last thing from a slobbering Clan-hating ******* in these forums…but if you’re honestly telling me that you think an Awesome is in the same league as the Timber Wolf, then you need to stop, back up, and re-examine your observations.

The DRG-1N is the one-trickest of one-trick ponies and would still be almost completely worthless without those ridiculous AC/5 quirks – and I say this as someone who piloted a DRG-1N as his very first owned ‘Mech in MWO. The Thunderbolts are also constrained – they perform great when they follow their quirks but are generally average otherwise, and again I say this as somebody who ended up getting hip-deep in Thunderbolts before the Quirkening. Victors have lost a lot of ground, and the Awesome?

Look, Gyrok. The Timber Wolf is not the virgin-****** baby-eating Satanspawn a number of Spheroid pilots try to make it out as, but Immortal pretty much nailed it – it handily outfights anything it can’t outrun and it handily outruns anything it can’t outfight. It’s fast enough to be where it needs to be, it has enough firepower to really make you wish it wasn’t there, and between its highly advantageous hitboxes, its sweet-spot weight and resultant armor levels, the massive durability boost of a CXL, and its mobility tier, it can trade evenly or better in any realistic situation a competent pilot should find himself in. I know – I love my Timber Wolves to death because they let me tip the spear and drag my idiot puglies along behind me while I show them where their firepower should be.

It doesn’t need or deserve to get megagagglegiganerfed the way some jack-monkey screechers around here have been screaming for, but in no way is an Awesome equivalent to a Timber Wolf. The TBR needs looked at. I don’t know what to do to it yet, but at this point we can’t really argue that it could use some trimming-up. Especially if said trimming opens the door to reductions in some particularly egregious-and-unnecessarily-overdone Spheroid-side megaquirks, eh?

C’mon, man. Give it up already. Nobody (sane) wants the Timber Wolf smashed into the ground. Frankly I imagine most folks would still like it to be one of the top ‘Mechs in the game. Just…maybe not head-and-shoulders above everything else in every weight class?

I am saying the awesome 9M can go that fast with a similar weapons payload and armor.

Those were the criteria.

I did not say they played the same, or worked equally.

[1453 R]

Gyrok, on 14 April 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

I am saying the awesome 9M can go that fast with a similar weapons payload and armor.

Those were the criteria.

I did not say they played the same, or worked equally.

I believe the criteria was durability not armor. Heh, and even if it wasn't, you know better than to try and split that particular hair since the Awesome's egregious fatness and its resulting tendency to melt under any kind of concentrated fire has been its biggest drawback since time immemorial.

And even if it wasn't fat, it'd have to sling an IS XL to try, and it gets to pick between endo or ferro unless it wants to give up far too much space, and frankly even the Endo's almost negotiable. This looks to be about the best one can do insofar as a TBR Laser Vomit equivalent AWS-9M goes, and even then I ended up switch the original medium lasers for pulsebeams because it was the only way I could use the remaining tonnage.

As opposed to a (roughly) comparable TBR...

Well, the TBR gets three additional heat sinks, slightly higher total alpha damage, it's faster, it jumps, and it also gets an Active Probe/TCI combination for lightning-fast paperdoll acquisition, or you can pitch those for two extra sinks if you'd rather the endurance. Still shield sides like a champ, and it keeps going after it loses the left shoulder. The AWS does outrange it with the triple ERLL and 12.5 energy range quirk, but it outranges it with potbelly knuckle-dragger hardpoints, and in the ranges where the TBR can shoot back it will gut that AWS like a fish.

Like I said. You know where I stand on the issue for the most part, but you just cannot say things like 'the AWS-9M can compare to the TBR' and expect people to take you remotely seriously.

[xImmortalx]

Cementi, on 14 April 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

I do not understand the timbergod posts either......just blow its ears off. Problem solved. Yes I know I am currently Clan at the time of this post. I am actually in a merc company and honestly prefer IS mechs we are just on a Clan contract at the moment and believe it or not but the "Timbergod" is not even in my drop deck. Hellbringer's and Stormcrow's for me.

The HBR/SCR combo just works better with the tonnages in CW right now. We'll see if that's still the case when the ECM Scat gets added to the game and you're able to do TBR/SHC dropdecs.

Johnny Z, on 14 April 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

You can 1 v 1 a madcat in a catapult because no good pilot would lower himself to pilot a madcat. Try fighting a good pilot in a madcat.

I wouldnt pilot one because easy mode isnt my style. Most other good pilots to.

Maybe when the top 3 or 4 Omni mechs get nerfed their pilots can have some self respect again. Until then pilot them in shame.

I love the unstated implication that you're a good pilot. I was a decent pilot once upon a time and I had the privilege to play with some of the best units and pilots in MW4. Those good pilots never dismissed an effective chassis as 'easy mode.' In fact, that dismissal was usually the hallmark of a bad pilot with a big ego that liked to make excuses. If you're good you use the best tool for the job.

[Piney II]

The Timberwolf is a really good mech.

Fear it? No

Respect it? You bet!

[Juodas Varnas]

Piney, on 15 April 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

The Timberwolf is a really good mech.

Fear it? No

Respect it? You bet!

I don't respect it at all, it looks silly and everyone who drives one is a tool!

I'm terrified of them though, doomcrows too. I'd rather face-tank an atlas.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 14 April 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

I believe the criteria was durability not armor. Heh, and even if it wasn't, you know better than to try and split that particular hair since the Awesome's egregious fatness and its resulting tendency to melt under any kind of concentrated fire has been its biggest drawback since time immemorial.

And even if it wasn't fat, it'd have to sling an IS XL to try, and it gets to pick between endo or ferro unless it wants to give up far too much space, and frankly even the Endo's almost negotiable. This looks to be about the best one can do insofar as a TBR Laser Vomit equivalent AWS-9M goes, and even then I ended up switch the original medium lasers for pulsebeams because it was the only way I could use the remaining tonnage.

As opposed to a (roughly) comparable TBR...

Well, the TBR gets three additional heat sinks, slightly higher total alpha damage, it's faster, it jumps, and it also gets an Active Probe/TCI combination for lightning-fast paperdoll acquisition, or you can pitch those for two extra sinks if you'd rather the endurance. Still shield sides like a champ, and it keeps going after it loses the left shoulder. The AWS does outrange it with the triple ERLL and 12.5 energy range quirk, but it outranges it with potbelly knuckle-dragger hardpoints, and in the ranges where the TBR can shoot back it will gut that AWS like a fish.

Like I said. You know where I stand on the issue for the most part, but you just cannot say things like 'the AWS-9M can compare to the TBR' and expect people to take you remotely seriously.

Ironically, the hardpoints on that awesome are in roughly equal location to the hardpoints on the TW...in fact, the TW arms may be a touch lower than the torso hardpoints on the AWS...though few people talk about the TW having knuckle dragger hard points...why is that I wonder? (Granted, the nova is worse than both by a wide margin...but I digress...)

Edited by Gyrok, 15 April 2015 - 05:50 AM.

[Ultimax]

1453 R, on 14 April 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

Gyrok, man…listen to yourself. You know me dude, you know I’m the last thing from a slobbering Clan-hating ******* in these forums…but if you’re honestly telling me that you think an Awesome is in the same league as the Timber Wolf, then you need to stop, back up, and re-examine your observations.

The DRG-1N is the one-trickest of one-trick ponies and would still be almost completely worthless without those ridiculous AC/5 quirks – and I say this as someone who piloted a DRG-1N as his very first owned ‘Mech in MWO. The Thunderbolts are also constrained – they perform great when they follow their quirks but are generally average otherwise, and again I say this as somebody who ended up getting hip-deep in Thunderbolts before the Quirkening. Victors have lost a lot of ground, and the Awesome?

Look, Gyrok. The Timber Wolf is not the virgin-****** baby-eating Satanspawn a number of Spheroid pilots try to make it out as, but Immortal pretty much nailed it – it handily outfights anything it can’t outrun and it handily outruns anything it can’t outfight. It’s fast enough to be where it needs to be, it has enough firepower to really make you wish it wasn’t there, and between its highly advantageous hitboxes, its sweet-spot weight and resultant armor levels, the massive durability boost of a CXL, and its mobility tier, it can trade evenly or better in any realistic situation a competent pilot should find himself in. I know – I love my Timber Wolves to death because they let me tip the spear and drag my idiot puglies along behind me while I show them where their firepower should be.

It doesn’t need or deserve to get megagagglegiganerfed the way some jack-monkey screechers around here have been screaming for, but in no way is an Awesome equivalent to a Timber Wolf. The TBR needs looked at. I don’t know what to do to it yet, but at this point we can’t really argue that it could use some trimming-up. Especially if said trimming opens the door to reductions in some particularly egregious-and-unnecessarily-overdone Spheroid-side megaquirks, eh?

C’mon, man. Give it up already. Nobody (sane) wants the Timber Wolf smashed into the ground. Frankly I imagine most folks would still like it to be one of the top ‘Mechs in the game. Just…maybe not head-and-shoulders above everything else in every weight class?

Great post.


I don't want to see the Timber Wolf nerfed into the ground, and I am completely happy with one or two mechs standing at the Apex of their weight classes.



What I fight against on these forums are ridiculous claims like putting Awesomes into the same conversation as the Timber Wolf, or calling PPC Vindicators "easy mode" - which is just so laughably ludicrous that a poster's credibility evaporates into the ether when they post that stuff.

Or the ridiculous idea that IS mechs are OP when literally every single serious competitive unit in the entire game recognizes that all T1 space is occupied solely by 4 clan mechs.



There is not a single IS heavy that I would not put my Timber Wolf or Hellbringer against, they are that good.

Any mechs they can't fight head on in a raw quirked out firefight - they have other sufficient advantages against to make any comparison not only fair but still largely in the HBR/TBR's favor.




The list of IS mechs that even have any kind of a specific niche advantage against these mechs is very, very short.

TDR-9S is one of them, but it's also a mech that is really only good for one mode of this game - unless you think 2 whole ERPPCs worth of firepower with a few medium lasers is a big deal in a game where 40 to 55 point laser alphas reign supreme.



The other is the Dragon 1N, this is a mech you do not want to be blindsided by, or you will have a bad match.

However if your team has so much as two handfulls of braincells to rub together and focuses any real fire onto it, Dragon 1Ns disappear from the match easily.

As you said they are the one-trickiest of one-trick ponies.

It's an excellent trick, but it comes saddled with all of the sad baggage of the Dragon design flaws.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 April 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[Shinikaru]

Metus regem, on 14 April 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

The Timber Wolf is go, it sits at the perfect balance point between these three key factors of armoured units:

Speed
Fire power
Armour

That being said, it still drops if you blow it's legs off, dies when you blow out both ST's or just core out the CT. Like all clan mechs, they run hot, and do not like being forced into a close range brawl with shorter duration, cooler IS energy weapons and better IS ballistics (not counting Gauss)... If you are dumb and try to trade long range pokes with it, then yea, you kind of deserve to get pounded on...

My timber-s runs circles around IS mechs of any calibur in a brawl. Currently sitting @ a 1.8 KDR on that chasis with a ssrm/er-med-las/er-sm-las build that never overheats. Throw in JJ's and max armor and i average 5 kills a match in it.
What it really comes down to is pilot Skill in the end. I can also hop in my Cat-cpl4 and dance circles around most any other timber pilot I encounter. In fact I seek them out just to kill them in that mech lol.

Edited by Shinikaru, 15 April 2015 - 09:31 AM.

[Metus regem]

Shinikaru, on 15 April 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

My timber-s runs circles around IS mechs of any calibur in a brawl. Currently sitting @ a 1.8 KDR on that chasis with a ssrm/er-med-las/er-sm-las las build that never overheats. Throw in JJ's and max armor and i average 5 kills a match in it.

Then you, good sir, are the exception to the rule. Generally speaking, most Timber Wolves you see are laser vomit, and those units do not like to be pressed in a brawl.

[Hound of War]

Timber is a real good mech, but I prefer my Hellbringer. TBR is not one of the "OMG im toast" mechs imo. And before any IS fanboys start yappin about nerfing clan mechs, look at yer own over-quirked easymode mechs!
Its been QQ from the get go about the OP clans...get real ppl, long laser burns+multi-shot AC+stuck at 1 speed was never OP,every noob with a K/D around 0.5 just cried bunches of rainbow flavored tears the first time a clan mech took them down,and all IS pilots said "yup must be OP"...geez!

[Shinikaru]

YeOlWardog, on 15 April 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

TBR is not one of the "OMG im toast" mechs imo. And before any IS fanboys start yappin about nerfing clan mechs, look at yer own over-quirked easymode mechs!
Its been QQ from the get go about the OP clans...get real ppl, long laser burns+multi-shot AC+stuck at 1 speed was never OP,every noob with a K/D around 0.5 just cried bunches of rainbow flavored tears the first time a clan mech took them down,and all IS pilots said "yup must be OP"...geez!

I agree with all of this. It always always comes down to being a good pilot. I personally think TBOLT are OP in their heat and range quirks for laser sniper vomit, clans dont have a single mech capable of doing what it does. Theres good and strong capabilities in many mechs on boths sides.
If your a krappy pilot in general, or have a poor build on a chasis, you will die.
If you dont help your team and allow your team to help you....you will die.
Often, embarrasingly, and fast.
Until I meet the pilot than can consistantly kill 12 mechs a match, any discussion of whats op and what isnt is just qqing.
This game has (currently) a really decent balance. Which is amazing, because i've been playing since before state-rewind went in and lights were op/unkillable, and I (fondly) remember LRM-A-GEDDON.
If you want to cry, you really just need to get better and find the chasis/build that suits you better.

Edited by Shinikaru, 15 April 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[cSand]

xImmortalx, on 15 April 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

I love the unstated implication that you're a good pilot. I was a decent pilot once upon a time and I had the privilege to play with some of the best units and pilots in MW4. Those good pilots never dismissed an effective chassis as 'easy mode.' In fact, that dismissal was usually the hallmark of a bad pilot with a big ego that liked to make excuses. If you're good you use the best tool for the job.

Well I hate to tell you man but the fact is some chassis in this game are much more forgiving than others. Hence, easier to play/easier to do well in. Providing a bse level of less piloting challenge and more forgiveness of mistakes. We all know what those chassis are.

You can say you are using the best tool for the job and that is fine (and true, of course) but the fact is they are "easier-mode" mechs than some of the other ones in this game. And I can tell you this, it takes a decent amount more ability to do well in some of the less-optimal chassis.

So play how you want... a skilled pilot is a skilled pilot at the end of the day. But you can't deny that the TBR, and a few others, are just easier to pilot overall. There's no shame in using the most effect (see: easiest to pilot) chassis, though

Edited by cSand, 15 April 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[Water Bear]

The shortest answer to OP's question is: Because statistically, the Twolf is assumed to give an advantage to its pilots in such a way that another pilot of equal skill in a different heavy mech loses more than 50% of the time.

As to why people think that, I assume the previous 3 pages elaborate.

[KuroNyra]

Cementi, on 14 April 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

I do not understand the timbergod posts either......just blow its ears off. Problem solved. Yes I know I am currently Clan at the time of this post. I am actually in a merc company and honestly prefer IS mechs we are just on a Clan contract at the moment and believe it or not but the "Timbergod" is not even in my drop deck. Hellbringer's and Stormcrow's for me.

I am a loyal member of Clan Wolf, yet I can understand your feel.

While I love the design of our superior Omnimech, I think something on my mech is broken, I just can't get it right...
Thaaat's whyyyy... When I can jump on a simulator we take from your breebirth planets with updated info about our new mechs.

I love to jump around in a Urbanmecn (it is a shame we were not able to bring our Urbanmech IIC. )

Johnny Z, on 14 April 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

You can 1 v 1 a madcat in a catapult because no good pilot would lower himself to pilot a madcat. Try fighting a good pilot in a madcat.

I wouldnt pilot one because easy mode isnt my style. Most other good pilots to.

Maybe when the top 3 or 4 Omni mechs get nerfed their pilots can have some self respect again. Until then pilot them in shame.

Wait, so you mean you haven't piloted the Thunderbolt when he was ridiculously OP when he was Heat proof?

Edited by KuroNyra, 15 April 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[Gyrok]

Ultimatum X, on 15 April 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

Great post.


I don't want to see the Timber Wolf nerfed into the ground, and I am completely happy with one or two mechs standing at the Apex of their weight classes.

Completely BS. You outright argue that anything IS is U.P. all day long, and whine about it. In fact, you are so anti-clan by statements and actions...even the mostly anti-clan crowd on reddit has run you out of multiple threads because you are absurdly anti-clan to the point you even alienate them.

Which brings me to...

Ultimatum X, on 15 April 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

What I fight against on these forums are ridiculous claims like putting Awesomes into the same conversation as the Timber Wolf, or calling PPC Vindicators "easy mode" - which is just so laughably ludicrous that a poster's credibility evaporates into the ether when they post that stuff.

Or the ridiculous idea that IS mechs are OP when literally every single serious competitive unit in the entire game recognizes that all T1 space is occupied solely by 4 clan mechs.

Veiled insults aimed specifically at my posts above are still ad hominem. Your credibility was blown the day you tried to say that a TW with Dual Gauss was better at it than a Jager Mech.

As much as you try to demonize the clan mechs, you fail to comprehend that there are viable IS mechs, and that there is clearly no "god tier" as you call it.

Also, not every comp unit says that there are no top IS mechs, and taking the advice of one player specifically, which you repetitively sight for your "evidence" is always a bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket.

Ultimatum X, on 15 April 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

There is not a single IS heavy that I would not put my Timber Wolf or Hellbringer against, they are that good.

Any mechs they can't fight head on in a raw quirked out firefight - they have other sufficient advantages against to make any comparison not only fair but still largely in the HBR/TBR's favor

Sounds like you either rarely play clans, or rarely play IS. Truth be told...clan players are gravitating to IS mechs because Clan mechs are becoming so screwed. Why do you think CW has been empty and the pub queues loaded?

If you cannot say you see clearly defined differences, you are blinded by your own bias. Also, if you sit and try to justify clan mechs as being superior, I would invite you to pull the .pak files and look at the values for the weapons in game that are not clearly listed anywhere in the UI or on sites like smurfys. There are tons of little tricks, and code edits for clan weapons that help to make them far less effective than they would outrightly appear if you tried to compare things by a spreadsheet of what is openly documented and published for public consumption. I guess you would have had to actually done some serious research into the math and the balance factors to come to a reasonable conclusion and understand that point though.

Ultimatum X, on 15 April 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

The list of IS mechs that even have any kind of a specific niche advantage against these mechs is very, very short.

TDR-9S is one of them, but it's also a mech that is really only good for one mode of this game - unless you think 2 whole ERPPCs worth of firepower with a few medium lasers is a big deal in a game where 40 to 55 point laser alphas reign supreme.



The other is the Dragon 1N, this is a mech you do not want to be blindsided by, or you will have a bad match.

However if your team has so much as two handfulls of braincells to rub together and focuses any real fire onto it, Dragon 1Ns disappear from the match easily.

As you said they are the one-trickiest of one-trick ponies.

It's an excellent trick, but it comes saddled with all of the sad baggage of the Dragon design flaws.

Hmm...really?

TDR-5SS
TDR-9S
STK-4N
BLR-3S
BNC-3E
KGC-000/0000/000b
DRG-1N
WVR-6K
GRF-3M
SHD-2K
FS9-S
FS9-A
RVN-3L
SDR-5D
JM6-FB
CPT-K2
CDA-3M

I am sure I am missing a few that punch equally well pound for pound with clan mechs...

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Shinikaru, on 15 April 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

... Currently sitting @ a 1.8 KDR ... i average 5 kills a match in it....

These things do not compute.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Gyrok, on 15 April 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

I am sure I am missing a few that punch equally well pound for pound with clan mechs...

I'd wager the percentage of playable, 'they don't gimp your team simply by being on it with an average pilot' mechs is within a few points of each other across the clan and IS lists. Clans just simply have fewer chassis. Though the new wave should greatly increase the clan's percentage in this regard.