203 replies to this topic

[CantHandletheTruth]

Sjorpha, on 19 April 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

Nitpick: there is only one 75 ton IS mech and it can't use a 375.

Timber's issue how?

[Telmasa]

Just as an example:
Comparing XL330 Sparky Griffin vs Stormcrow
Sparky build:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...82019e48ffd0664
Classic stormcrow laser barf build:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...965250d7cecd0f8
Notice how they have the exact same speed and the exact same time to overheat.

And the Sparky still gets jumpjets!

And imagine if CERML were nerfed by 1 damage (since like I keep harping on about, CERMLs are the source of perceived clan "OP"-ness) - you'd have 42 alpha on Sparky vs 43 alpha on the Stormcrow.

The only difference would be the Stormcrow has longer range in exchange for slower burn time (and admittedly better heat management, which, at some point I'll just admit there's still a slight Clan vs IS mech edge, but nothing as extreme as it could be given BT's assymetric balance to begin with).


I'll edit my post to add in more examples.

Sjorpha, on 19 April 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

Nitpick: there is only one 75 ton IS mech and it can't use a 375.

Okay, fair point - I will compare the TW to both the Orion & the Awesome 9M (or maybe the pretty baby) who get quirks allowing for engines that large.

Orion http://mwo.smurfy-ne...33147e27cbaa7c2
vs TW http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4c51d349cc6af85(I went with mirrored loadouts cause Orion admittedly has limited energy hardpoints; Awesome comparison will be more fun)
Is there an advantage to the TW over the Orion? Yes, that's clear enough - but not what I would label "OP".

Awesome 9M: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c531061343018eb
Timberwolf "classic laserbarf" build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8b260d2ba437340

Pretty Baby (man the laser hardpoints fail for the quirks it gets): http://mwo.smurfy-ne...77c298e8f2900cc
Timberwolf "srm splat" build: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=163&l=1357b27bc8d40b5b920cfcb699461bf3558728a7
(alt. D config: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=163&l=168b2c95aaec0dca380e62c2ec874cde31d5cc89)


(I can't get an XL300+4uac/5 or 4ac5 build to work on a King Crab, cause crit space, so I'm gonna throw a standard engine 300 build out and show they still get similar max DPS):
4xAC5 std300 king crab: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f9c4bb6584e3557
"dakka wolf" http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5e58b979c8514f0

This one is a little more comparable:
2xgauss XL300 king crab: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ae4bba12de889af
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4577dd783e298ca

Here, I have to admit the DW fares better with crit space for additional heatsinks, giving it better sustained DPS - yet notice the King Crab still has better max DPS!

(Just for kicks, here's the KC with max XL engine: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f1ab2a5fc86a5d0. Doesn't lose much except laser range, and now waddles pretty damn fast for a 100 tonner.)

Now is it just my imagination, or do all these builds appear to be pretty comparable?

YES, Clan mechs *do* have a slight edge. But OP? No.

Same as for the stormcrow build - look at all the Timberwolf builds, then imagine if CERMLs had 1 less damage or some other nerf. It'd swing the builds even more favorably towards being about the same as the IS ones.

Edited by Telmasa, 19 April 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

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No more heavies going as fast as mediums.

IS mediums go as fast as the engine you put in. IS mediums should go faster than Clan heavies if you put the right engine in.

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This is so wrong.

You can take same-tonnage IS mechs and mount the same-rating XL engines and go the same speeds.

Don't believe me, go experiment in smurfy awhile. It's pretty straightforward.

Exactly. The Victor Dragon Slayer at 80 tons can also go as fast as TW. The problem is not speed but fire power. Although on a side note I would like some IS mechs to have larger engine caps.

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YES, Clan mechs *do* have a slight edge. But OP? No.

They do have more than a slight edge. With a really skilled pilot in an Orian and a TW the TW should win just about every time. For a not very skilled pilot in both then the differences shrink since the TW laser vomit is a bit harder to pilot to its full potential.

[Postumus]

Telmasa, on 19 April 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Just as an example:
....
....
....

Mechlab numbers don't tell the whole story here, especially the numbers you are using. Your Sparky build does have similar firepower and speed to the Stormcrow build you posted, but it loses out on heat, range, and durability. They might have the same armor, but because of the Crow's godlike hitboxes, it is much more durable. You also didn't factor in the clan XL - if a Crow loses a side torso, which it will do less often because of aforementioned hitboxes, it could have as much as 60-70% of its firepower left, whereas the Sparky is just dead.

Comparing the Awesome, or Orion to the Timberwolf is also misleading, because of all of the factors I mentioned above. With the same loadout, the Timberwolf can hit at longer range than the Awesome, has way better hitboxes, goes faster, has jumpjets, and has the advantage of a clan XL engine.

[Khobai]

Quote

You can take same-tonnage IS mechs and mount the same-rating XL engines and go the same speeds.

Don't believe me, go experiment in smurfy awhile. It's pretty straightforward.

Engine rating has nothing to do with skill trees.


Skill trees should be weight class specific. And only lights and mediums should get speed tweak.

[Eboli]

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Skill trees should be weight class specific. And only lights and mediums should get speed tweak.

I like your thinking Khobai. I would love to see changes to the skills tree although PGI will need to implement any new changes in a way that doesn't peeve the player base off. Maybe any changes in skills be of the same EXP amount as the one it replaces and if such skills have already been unlocked then they get unlocked automatically.

But will PGI ever revise the skill trees...?

One day hopefully.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Engine rating has nothing to do with skill trees.


Skill trees should be weight class specific. And only lights and mediums should get speed tweak.

Why would we want assaults slower than they already are?

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Engine rating has nothing to do with skill trees.


Skill trees should be weight class specific. And only lights and mediums should get speed tweak.

Gas Guzzler, on 19 April 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

Why would we want assaults slower than they already are?

I'd rather differentiate it per mech or at least per role, because not all mechs in one class are built for the same thing.

For example, the Badder shouldn't be given a generic blanket scouting kit, it should be fire support and other general fighting.

Some heavies and assaults actually were built to have above average maneuverability for their class, like the Quickdie, Dragon, Gargles, Victor, Battlemaster, Zeus, and Gladiator (just to name the ones presently in-game or soon to be in-game).

Edited by FupDup, 19 April 2015 - 05:38 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

One Medic Army, on 19 April 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

If you're shutting down in the open, you're doing it wrong. Step out, alpha someone, step back behind cover. You know, like a stalker does because it's also super-weak up close in a DPS fight.

You talk about stalker, but the 4N actually doesn't have any burn time quirks, and the burn time difference between the IS LL and the ERMLS is actually pretty small. 1sec vs 1.15 sec.

The base dmg/heat ratio is 1.29 vs 1.17. The IS LL costs 5 tons per 9 dmg, while the clan laser costs 1ton per 7 dmg. Accounting for 20% range and heat quirks on the 4N the IS LL is 9dmg/5.6heat at 540m for 5 tons. The clan ERMLS is 7dmg/6heat at 405m for 1ton. The ghost heat limit is 27dmg vs 42dmg.

The stalker pays far more tonnage than a Timberwolf/Hellbringer/Stormcrow, has more heatsinks, and has cooler weaponry. It's also vastly slower and has a much stricter ghost heat limit. The burn time for the weapons is actually pretty close, and the dmg/sec of beam is strongly in favor of the clan mechs if you're both firing at the ghost heat limit due to 3LL vs 6ERML.

My problem isn't the firepower of the stormcrow or the Timberwolf, it's that they can fit that firepower, go 106.9 and 89.1 kph, and won't die by a single side torso. A 55ton IS medium with a std300 goes 97.2 and has ~17 tons for weaponry/DHS/ammo/jumpjets (using endo and ferro). You could go XL300, but then you're much more fragile than a stormcrow. To equal the alpha power of a Scrow you'd need 8medium lasers, have a shorter range, and incur ghost heat. Plus the IS mediums don't tend to have much in the way of hardpoints (6-8total, spread across at least 2 weapon types for the 8s usually).

I agree, there are no burn time perks but the IS just has an inherent advantage in that regards.

You are also neglecting the fact that while the stalker does have less mobility and more tonnage the the TW (not even getting into the 10 IS ton advantage) he also has armor perks. In short he trades mobility for a does not die zombie mode.

It's all relative naturally but in the current meta of mass IS assault deathball its not as if the timberwolf and crow are godly compared to any other mech.

In short, I still hold to my original view that you can't touch the crow and TW without nerfing the stalker, Tbolt, etc.

As you just pointed out the stalker has better range, more armor, and better heat efficiency than the crow; hands down the best mech in the clan arsenal per ton value. You can't nerf him without also nerfing the top IS mechs.

[One Medic Army]

Blueduck, on 19 April 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

I agree, there are no burn time perks but the IS just has an inherent advantage in that regards.

You are also neglecting the fact that while the stalker does have less mobility and more tonnage the the TW (not even getting into the 10 IS ton advantage) he also has armor perks. In short he trades mobility for a does not die zombie mode.

It's all relative naturally but in the current meta of mass IS assault deathball its not as if the timberwolf and crow are godly compared to any other mech.

In short, I still hold to my original view that you can't touch the crow and TW without nerfing the stalker, Tbolt, etc.

As you just pointed out the stalker has better range, more armor, and better heat efficiency than the crow; hands down the best mech in the clan arsenal per ton value. You can't nerf him without also nerfing the top IS mechs.

You're comparing a 100+ kph and 89+kph mech, that are respectively 30 and 10 tons lighter. Also the stalker has no armor/structure quirks. The stalker is actually one of the least quirked IS mechs (4N aside).

If I were to compare a stalker to a Direwolf, people would immediately (and rightly) point out the Direwolf is 15tons heavier and much slower. Which is what I'm doing here.

And as to your "must nerf both sides" thoughts, where was that logic when the thunderbolt got nerfed. And it was nerfed, or else we would still see people using them everywhere in CW.

Compare the crow to an IS mech at 55 tons, and it's straight up better, period.

Edited by One Medic Army, 19 April 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[Deathlike]

I'd like to pass on this thread.

I feel like this thread has gone the NASCAR route, and I'd actually like to make a right turn.

Right now, this feels like a session of Congress, and we know full well how wonderful and efficient they are!

Edited by Deathlike, 19 April 2015 - 06:37 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

One Medic Army, on 19 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

You're comparing a 100+ kph and 89+kph mech, that are respectively 30 and 10 tons lighter. Also the stalker has no armor/structure quirks. The stalker is actually one of the least quirked IS mechs (4N aside).

If I were to compare a stalker to a Direwolf, people would immediately (and rightly) point out the Direwolf is 15tons heavier and much slower. Which is what I'm doing here.

And as to your "must nerf both sides" thoughts, where was that logic when the thunderbolt got nerfed. And it was nerfed, or else we would still see people using them everywhere in CW.

Compare the crow to an IS mech at 55 tons, and it's straight up better, period.

I am comparing them because it is relevant. The crow survives on his speed and is the best fighter the clans have against the stalker. My whole unit is currently outfitted with an anti-stalker crow wave specifically because our equivalent mech, the Warhawk is terribad relative to the stalker.

In regards to your thunderbolt "nerf" he was not straight nerfed but simply changed. I grant you he can no longer brawl like an AC20 king crab at close range but now functions as a much more powerful sniper given the speed perk they attached to his ppcs. That is not a nerf but a trade as he is now a much more effective pop and shoot mech at a distance. Both he and the thunderwub actually have well defined roles now.

You cannot just say nerf the best clan mech because the IS mediums aren't as good; which I agree with. You have to consider that the crow is the best option the clans have because our assaults are terrible compared to the IS.

Again, I'm fine if you want to talk crow/timber nerfs but you better add to that Stalker and Thunderbolt nerfs. These are the mechs that are fighting against each other typically and as such they need to be modified together.

If you want to talk about unbalanced classes lets talk about clan lights vs IS lights. By your logic we should nerf the firestarter and spider the level of the mist lynx and kitfox. I don't complain about this though as I do have a nice counter for it in another weight class. This game is not balanced around class vs class in clan vs IS

[One Medic Army]

Blueduck, on 19 April 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

I am comparing them because it is relevant. The crow survives on his speed and is the best fighter the clans have against the stalker. My whole unit is currently outfitted with an anti-stalker crow wave specifically because our equivalent mech, the Warhawk is terribad relative to the stalker.

In regards to your thunderbolt "nerf" he was not straight nerfed but simply changed. I grant you he can no longer brawl like an AC20 king crab at close range but now functions as a much more powerful sniper given the speed perk they attached to his ppcs. That is not a nerf but a trade as he is now a much more effective pop and shoot mech at a distance. Both he and the thunderwub actually have well defined roles now.

You cannot just say nerf the best clan mech because the IS mediums aren't as good; which I agree with. You have to consider that the crow is the best option the clans have because our assaults are terrible compared to the IS.

Again, I'm fine if you want to talk crow/timber nerfs but you better add to that Stalker and Thunderbolt nerfs. These are the mechs that are fighting against each other typically and as such they need to be modified together.

Are you referring to the MPL thunderbolt with barely over 300m optimal range that has heat problems similar to a clan mech? Or the LLas one that has a sub-30 dmg alpha? And the ERPPC thunderbolt was nerfed, it's too hot to actually fire 3ERPPCs at range anymore, which was the big advantage it used to have. Speed just makes it easier to hit at range, to people who could already hit at range it's not much of a benefit.

Quote

If you want to talk about unbalanced classes lets talk about clan lights vs IS lights. By your logic we should nerf the firestarter and spider the level of the mist lynx and kitfox. I don't complain about this though as I do have a nice counter for it in another weight class. This game is not balanced around class vs class in clan vs IS

I do want the Firestarter brought down to level. If you think the spider is dangerous then you are playing a very different game than me. I'd also love the rest of the lights brought up, including both IS and clan ones. Jenner, kitfox, commando, and even the some of your dreaded spiders.

Be warned, when the Hankyu comes out, you'll probably not be able to complain as much about the Firestarter anymore. I know I'll be driving mine around enjoying the hell out of speed+clan XL+clan weapons+ECM.

[edit] I even would rather change the LLas quirks on the 4N for something else, but your logic of both sides must be nerfed together is complete bull.

Edited by One Medic Army, 19 April 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

One Medic Army, on 19 April 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Are you referring to the MPL thunderbolt with barely over 300m optimal range that has heat problems similar to a clan mech? Or the LLas one that has a sub-30 dmg alpha? And the ERPPC thunderbolt was nerfed, it's too hot to actually fire 3ERPPCs at range anymore, which was the big advantage it used to have. Speed just makes it easier to hit at range, to people who could already hit at range it's not much of a benefit.


I do want the Firestarter brought down to level. If you think the spider is dangerous then you are playing a very different game than me. I'd also love the rest of the lights brought up, including both IS and clan ones. Jenner, kitfox, commando, and even the some of your dreaded spiders.

Be warned, when the Hankyu comes out, you'll probably not be able to complain as much about the Firestarter anymore. I know I'll be driving mine around enjoying the hell out of speed+clan XL+clan weapons+ECM.

[edit] I even would rather change the LLas quirks on the 4N for something else, but your logic of both sides must be nerfed together is complete bull.

I'm referring the mech that nearly tore out the CT of one of my crows last night with a single alpha volley before I even noticed I was hit and has armor perks that can take a beating like a Timberwolf and outkills the Timberwolf at medium range with pulse lasers. And yes, I"m sorry you can no longer throw me into internal with a single volley of 3 ppcs with the long range variant without a cost; however, you still got something for that.

And if you don't think the balance of this game is asymetical and that the most powerful mechs need to be changed together or have an equivalent mech brought up to that level then all you want is a roflstomp and easy wins.

What I'm saying is that the game is in a rough equilibrium currently, and if you were going to change it you would need to change both sides. I can acknowledge that the crow is the most powerful medium in the game, and if you were going to do major shifts to the thunderbolt and stalker in terms of down grade he would need them too. Can you say the same thing or are your IS blinders on too tight?

(Your spider sarcasm is amusing in that everyone who pilots them knows that the reason they are OP is that the lag shield and hit boxes makes them basically invincible to anything but streaks.)

Edited by Blueduck, 19 April 2015 - 07:24 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Blueduck, on 19 April 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

And if you don't think the balance of this game is asymetical and that the most powerful mechs need to be changed together or have an equivalent mech brought up to that level then all you want is a roflstomp and easy wins.

Or maybe I play outside of CW where my IS mechs get pissed on by equal weight clan mechs in normal matchmaking, which is BS.

Edited by One Medic Army, 19 April 2015 - 07:23 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

One Medic Army, on 19 April 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

Or maybe I play outside of CW where my IS mechs get pissed on by equal weight clan mechs in normal matchmaking, which is BS.

Well I'm sorry about that but the game is being balanced around tonnage in CW right now.

Hopefully they will do something reasonable soon and maybe actually give us the prorate of tonnage for clan vs IS in skirmish.

To be frank though, that mode has much bigger matching issues than just clan and IS at the moment. I saw a game recently there 6 dires dropped against a 4 victors and 2 zeus. Lets not even get into clan vs IS when thing are that screwed up.

Regardless the IS thrives off tonnage efficiency which I agree with you is a moot point in skrimish

Edited by Blueduck, 19 April 2015 - 07:28 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Blueduck, on 19 April 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

Well I'm sorry about that but the game is being balanced around tonnage in CW right now.

Hopefully they will do something reasonable soon and maybe actually give us the prorate of tonnage for clan vs IS in skirmish.

To be frank though, that mode has much bigger matching issues than just clan and IS at the moment. I saw a game recently there 6 dires dropped against a 4 victors and 2 zeus. Lets not even get into clan vs IS when thing are that screwed up

That was a group queue match, where matchmaker is a bit more lax. Solo queue I'm getting really tired of my 50-55 ton mediums getting chased down by stormcrows that are faster, more heavily armed, and at least as durable. Even my lights have a hard time getting away from stormcrows given their speed and range. I do not play Firestarters outside of CW.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

The crow is a speed demon no doubt but he is also really the only way to kill mechs like the firestarter and spider in CW when mass zerg rushing is the goal.

Even with 4-6 streak crows we've had issues stopping this sort of mass zerg play. And typically the lights do enough damage to us and the generators we are pretty well softened up for the following assault wave designed to finish off the generator.

This really goes back to the assymetircal balance of clan vs IS at the moment.

[CantHandletheTruth]

One Medic Army, on 19 April 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

Or maybe I play outside of CW where my IS mechs get pissed on by equal weight clan mechs in normal matchmaking, which is BS.

No really then you are doing it wrong.

[One Medic Army]

CantHandletheTruth, on 19 April 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

No really then you are doing it wrong.

Give me a Griffin or wolverine build that is the equal of a meta laserbarf stormcrow.