282 replies to this topic

[Jimdoza]

We've been going about this the wrong way as the timeline moves on the older inferior mechs are going to become obsolete it can't be avoided. You can try and give those mechs quirks but it will start to get ridiculous if it hasn't already . Too much time and energy has been wasted trying to obtain perfect balance when it’s is next to impossible to achieve, some mechs are just better and they will always be used.We have enough BattleMechs in the game now to start putting in restrictions and force people to play with other mechs not just the top tier. We should forget about trying to balance (within reason).

So here is what I would prefer it applies primarily for community warfare. All factions have iconic mechs. However I understand with salvage/trade they can field just about anything. So you can use your iconic mechs with no restrictions because your aligned faction have them in high supply. Should you want to use a non-iconic Mech you can, no problem. When it gets destroyed however the entire Chassis (even if you have multiple Mechs of that Chassis) gets completely locked out for at least a game maybe more depending on the Mech and its tier/availability. I think something similar has been suggested before.

The reason I like this idea is because it would give each faction more of an identity e.g if you are fighting the mighty Clan Wolf expect a lot of Timberwolves and Ice ferrets. Or if you are against Falcon expect Summoners and kit foxes, Steiner Commandos and Zeus etc. The restrictions on extra mechs taken would add an element of randomness to the game. Yes sometimes the matches won’t be fair that’s when you have to rely upon your own skill a as MechWarrior and team tactics. Factions with not very good iconic mechs would have to be compensated with better rewards. Using/seeing different Battlemechs will make the game a lot more interesting, unpredictable and ultimately more fun. This is lot better method than the endless quirking and nerfing. You could even incorporate planet taking into effecting the time a Mech gets locked out for. The idea isn’t perfect but I feel has a lot of potential.

So in short my answer is yes reset the quirks and introduce restrictions

[Stoned Prophet]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

now who's copping out?

Ah, yes, asking which things in particular you are talking about is "copping out" says the guy who cant answer a straight question
Why all trolly this morning Bish? Need some coffee so you can make ACTUAL arguments? I mean, usually you are well reasoned and articulate. Seems like youre phoning this one in. What gives?

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

in it's era, the DRG worked fine. The Grand Dragon was actually a 60 ton beast. Real shame they won't just add it as a variant of the DRG.

We will agree to disagree Bish. I have always (for me thats since 1986) seen the Dragon as Lackluster. But its personal preference talking.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 April 2015 - 08:17 AM.

[ChapeL]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

Know what else packs 64 armor in it's arms...or 40 Structure in it's Legs? A bloody Banshee. A 50 ton mech (Nova) has structure or armor matching a 95 ton Assault mech. Heck it has the CT and ST structure of a 70 tonner. And then weapon quirks on top.

I agree with this BUT I also consider that the Nova is of the actual size of a 70 tonner ( too wide and too tall ), under those circumstances, I can understand why they gave him those quirks. It's not a perfect solution by any means.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

The Dragon was always a mediocre Mech, it was quick with some fire power but was never a good design. The Awesome got Screwed by PGIs interpretation of how Heat works. If it could fire on a 3/2 cyclic as it can on TT it would be a true Awesome. So I blame this games' heat mechanics for the demise of the Awesome more than its hitboxes.

That is however my opinion.

And your opinion is often one I find myself in agreement with, not always, but more often than not.

The Dragon isn't a great Mech, even the fluff says it, it was just mass produced by Kurita for their own use until 3040 when the Grand Dragon went into mass production by Kurita to replace the Dragon.

And that's why I made the comment that not all Mechs will be great or even good, some will be bad despite being quirked, welcome to a BattleTech based video game. Over 2000 Mechs in BTech currently, you better believe that a lot of those are not good Mechs, many outright suck. And in BTech that's fine, those sucky Mechs are CHEAP and that matters a lot in TT, cheap Mechs means you can toss more into the fray for less cost and sheer numbers DO matter in TT.

For MWO, sucky Mechs are..well...sucky. Some of us have fun with the sucky Mechs, we make them work, but that is where personal skill becomes relevant and that's going to be a problem for too many people. Too many people think every Mech in a Class should be as good as any other Mech in that Class. Then they think that all Classes should be equally balanced as well. At that rate, we need 1 Mech with 1 set of weapons and we all drive the exact same thing, that is the ONLY way to achieve actual balance by that criteria. I'll pass on that, thanks.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thats the thing with opinions. They don't always have to agree!

[kapusta11]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

TT is also not a live action FPS environment, and you only fire each weapon once every 10 seconds.

Kinda obvious it can't be a literal translation, which is one reason I would not start it til 50% on the heat scale.

The funny thing it, above all things, can be a "literal translation". The 50% dead zone where no penalty occurs you're talking about does exist in TT, it's just not flat 50% and depends on the amount of DHS you carry into battle.

[Mikros04]

Kristov Kerensky, on 21 April 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Let us take the Dragon 1N as an example, any Dragon really, because the only problem with the Dragon is that huge center torso sticking out so far that it makes Cisero feel inadeqate. So, to fix this via quirks, you would give the CT more armor and structure for starters. Then you would give a boost to twist range and twist speed so that spreading damage becomes a real option. Hip actuators are actually a problem for the Dragon according to the fluff, so accel should probably get a negative quirk due to that, or perhaps turning speed, but only 1 of those should be applied. There are no weapon based quirks because the fluff/lore mentions none. It IS a good brawler but that is not due to it's weapons but instead due to it's physical attacks, the AC5 having a heavy shroud to protect it from damage during melee, so give the arms extra armor.

This is what I was looking for, I'd very much like to try piloting your version of the 1N. Though I don't think the CT is the only problem. The arm hardpoints are pretty far from the STs compared to most mechs, I'd like to see an adjustment there as well.

[Joseph Mallan]

kapusta11, on 21 April 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

The funny thing it, above all things, can be a "literal translation". The 50% dead zone where no penalty occurs you're talking about does exist in TT, it's just not flat 50% and depends on the amount of DHS you carry into battle.

IIRC the THUG Running and Alpha striking every turn was -6 on heat. So it could continue unimpeded with a single engine hit (+5 heat).

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 April 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mikros04, on 21 April 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

This is what I was looking for, I'd very much like to try piloting your version of the 1N. Though I don't think the CT is the only problem. The arm hardpoints are pretty far from the STs compared to most mechs, I'd like to see an adjustment there as well.

Ah, you want a remodel of the geometry, and that's not what quirks do. PGI hasn't allowed the arms to be actually used in anything but the most basic of functions, ie - moving the target reticule for arm mounted weapons. In TT the arms move however you wanted within the constraints of the actuators included in the arms, so many of the issues we have with arm mounted hardpoints shouldn't exist. And that's another topic for another thread

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

We will agree to disagree Bish. I have always (for me thats since 1986) seen the Dragon as Lackluster. But its personal preference talking.

compare it to the Shadow Hawk, Quickdraw, etc. Very similar performance as other mechs in it's class. Didn't have the heat or armor issues of the RFL, wasn't as flimsy as the OST. More versatile than a Hunchback, etc. Yes, it would not beat a Marauder or Warhammer toe to toe very often, but comparing apples to apples? It was fine. Only things in it's "neighborhood" I would call outright better would be the Wolverine (best actual battler of the 55 tonners) and the Thunderbolt, which also was 20 kph or 2 hexes slower and thus less tactically flexible.

[Mikros04]

Kristov Kerensky, on 21 April 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Ah, you want a remodel of the geometry

nahh, what I want is a compromise that makes more of us happy. I was just expanding on your 1N adjustment I wouldn't mind them making a pass on all of the mechs and doing something akin to what you just did for the Dragon, I wouldn't mind having that instead of quirks. I'm just not as against quirks as some.

[kapusta11]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

IIRC the THUG Running and Alpha striking every turn was -6 on heat. So it could continue unimpeded with a single engine hit (+5 heat).

12 heat for running, 28 for firing weapons and with 18 DHS it would be left with 4 excess heat, just enough to avoid heat penalty, but losing one engine crit and doing the same thing would still result in both movement and to hit penalty applied, am I missing something? Probably heat generated by running is wrong.

Edit: nvm it's 2 insted of 12, thought it was 2 heat per each running MP instead of per turn.

Edited by kapusta11, 21 April 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[B E E L Z E B U B]

LB-#X DEFINITELY needs to be re-looked at .

[Joseph Mallan]

kapusta11, on 21 April 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

12 heat for running, 28 for firing weapons and with 18 DHS it would be left with 4 excess heat, just enough to avoid heat penalty, but losing one engine crit and doing the same thing would still result in both movement and to hit penalty applied, am I missing something? Probably heat generated by running is wrong.

2 Heat for running 28 for weapons 30 heat 18 doubles 36 dissipation.

[FupDup]

I get what you're trying to say, but some mechs like the Spider 5V just cannot be viable without those "crazy" 40+% quirks, unless we want to just remove hardpoints and make the mechlab into MW3.

[ztac]

Has a new problem not been created now if PGI try to solve this issue in that people do not like nerfs and any changes will be a nerf!

The core problem is that they have never been able to get the actual game balance right and by making new chassis you increase the likelihood or causing more problems. PGI have just gone around in circles since day one , but then if they ever did get it right some people may well find themselves no longer in a job! Maybe this is more about job creation than getting it right in the first place?

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 21 April 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

I get what you're trying to say, but some mechs like the Spider 5V just cannot be viable without those "crazy" 40+% quirks, unless we want to just remove hardpoints and make the mechlab into MW3.

Quote

The Spider was the first BattleMech produced by Newhart Industries and designed as a light reconnaissance and attack 'Mech to be used by Star League Defense Force Special Operations forces such as the Blackhearts.

It's not supposed to be competitive, its meant to be sneaky.

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

It's not supposed to be competitive, its meant to be sneaky.

You can be sneaky with lots of other mechs. The Spidey needs to justify its existence compared to them.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The quirks are starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth as well. They failed in their originally stated role of bringing all IS mechs up to the same level as IS tier 1 (then defined by the poptart meta). Instead they became the new tier 1, which isn't surprising, but the difference between the ones with good quirks and those with bad is too big.

On the other hand it did well in bringing some IS mechs up to compete with Clan mechs. Also, I think it is a good way to test weapon changes. I think they should go through the quirks and see which ones could just be made universal. Particularly the weapon quirks. I would like the quirks to mostly be about shoring up the major weaknesses of certain mechs. Dragon CT, for example. I like the big quirks on single weapon systems like those found in most of the Hunchbacks, but when you start having lots of mechs with +10% medium laser range then perhaps medium lasers should just have a range of 300 meters.