117 replies to this topic

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

They can avoid this issue by keeping Clan Tech out of the hands of the players. People are fanboys for their fancy Vulture or whatever but don't realize the problems that having Clan Tech available in MWO will cause. IS still would become obsolete and worthless. Even if Clan Tech costed a lot more... you're still going to just save up for the "better" Mech/weapons, not buy weaker trash. It isn't an issue in singleplayer games because it's a singleplayer... you can simply use the stuff or not use the stuff and it doesn't matter too much. But in a multiplayer all your enemies will have the better stuff and roll you if you don't also have it. So I am hoping they keep Clan Tech out of our hands and just use them for the PvE content.(Aka Co Op vs Clan missions)

[Voyager I]

That's not really power creep. That's just extending the curve. Sure, going from 60 to 80 jumped your health up an order of magnitude, but you were being measured against new content that was designed for it and everyone around you was also many times tougher.

Power creep is when old content is overshadowed by new content that it is meant to be competitive with.

Edited by Voyager I, 02 July 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[Glythe]

shadowvfx, on 02 July 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Clan Tech = biggest example of power creep EVER. Face it, no one WANTS to use an original 3025 Catapult against a Mad Cat (unless they're doing it for a ridiculous challenge). I'm very interested to see how the devs handle this.

Here's the problem with your argument.... they're going to balance stuff they introduce so that you either get quantity or quality. Notice the Timber Wolf costs 24M and the catapult costs a little over 5M. At the very least you would get 2 Catapults vs 1 Madcat. An intelligent pair of catapults (c1/k2) might be able to eaily kill the mad cat. At the very least the better tech is going to cost you a LOT to run. If two catapults can beat or cripple the mad cat you've used ~11M to stop 24M and that is a win scenario right there.

When you stop and consider the information warfare aspect of the game I think the quality tends to lose unless the enemy is dumb enough to try and fight it in a 1 vs 1 scenario.

They aren't releasing details yet but they will eventually tell us if we are going to balance on BV, by CB cost or some other mechanic.

Edited by Glythe, 02 July 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[Ranek Blackstone]

From what I understand, We're all going to be IS pilots. I've not heard tell of us being able to jump ship from the houses to the clans, mostly because this would cause massive problems.

Clan tech is going to be either salvaged or bought at massive mark ups. Most Omni's cost 3x what their IS counterparts cost, and while they're generally better, they are limited in the engine and CPU departments. Omni's MUST field the stock XL engine, and MUST run stock CPUs. Otherwise you risk turning it into a massively expensive battlemech.

So a possible balance tool is to prevent omnis from installing things like modules, which forces a choice. More firepower, or modules that increase my LRM's ability to pound you when fired indirectly.

I can see clan tech mostly being used by Merc companies in high risk, high reward battles, where the edge granted by the clan tech to help win the fight will offset the fact I might need to run more then a couple missions in an atlas for the houses to get the dang thing patched up and rearmed.

[William Petersen]

Ranek Blackstone, on 02 July 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

From what I understand, We're all going to be IS pilots. I've not heard tell of us being able to jump ship from the houses to the clans, mostly because this would cause massive problems.

Clan tech is going to be either salvaged or bought at massive mark ups. Most Omni's cost 3x what their IS counterparts cost, and while they're generally better, they are limited in the engine and CPU departments. Omni's MUST field the stock XL engine, and MUST run stock CPUs. Otherwise you risk turning it into a massively expensive battlemech.

So a possible balance tool is to prevent omnis from installing things like modules, which forces a choice. More firepower, or modules that increase my LRM's ability to pound you when fired indirectly.

I can see clan tech mostly being used by Merc companies in high risk, high reward battles, where the edge granted by the clan tech to help win the fight will offset the fact I might need to run more then a couple missions in an atlas for the houses to get the dang thing patched up and rearmed.

CPU? O.o what are you talking about?

They must use the stock engine, it is not necessarily XL. There are a few (very few, because why not use Clan XL?) omnis who use standard fusion engines.

[Synra]

Voyager I, on 02 July 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

That's not really power creep. That's just extending the curve. Sure, going from 60 to 80 jumped your health up an order of magnitude, but you were being measured against new content that was designed for it and everyone around you was also many times tougher.

Power creep is when old content is overshadowed by new content that it is meant to be competitive with.

No, you have that backwards. In order to make the new expansion appealing to players, the devs implement absurdly more powerful equipment, to make the expansion pack appealing. If someone doesn't buy it, they will see all this new equipment being linked in chat, with incredible stats, and then they will be more driven to purchase the expansion as well, due to greed. However, this has the side effect of massively overpowering players, so in order to throw a bandage on the problem, they try to up-tune the content to match the new equipment. The "new content that was designed for it" is more of an afterthought in the process, and generally not that well balanced. In the case of the healer I mentioned earlier, healing wasn't that difficult through the lower levels, but enter into the expansion content, and oh my god my tank with over 100,000 HP is losing 50% of his health in a second! The difference in game balance as you jump to different eras of content was astounding.

But as I said, this is not the only form of power creep at play. There are also things like adding Glyphs in the second expansion pack. Sure, you may claim that the new content is designed for that kind of thing, but Glyphs are made available at the lower levels too, during content that wasn't meant for it. The expansions also overhauled talent trees, in some cases major redesigns. Was the old content designed for that? Currently a warlock can obtain that formerly high level pet (felguard?) right at level 10, where as it used to require a very high level. Does this screw up balance in existing content? You bet it does.

This is all power creep. Players slowly becoming more and more powerful as time goes on. And it is ALWAYS the fault of the devs. Sure, the devs throw in bandaid solutions, but typically they just don't seem to care. They are still making money so it's all good.

But as I said, this is battletech. They aren't just going to drop some massive unexpected power change on us. We know exactly what is coming in the years beyond 3049. You can go and look up the stats right now for that better equipment coming in the future. We aren't going to suddenly find lasers that do 3x more damage. Even if clan equipment is clearly better, it won't make you invincible. Not only do we know what to expect, so do the devs, and they can be smart and fair about it when the time comes to add it.

I have said this before, but it's worth repeating. Clan tech will NOT be easily obtainable. You aren't going to just open the equipment store and buy clan tech, no matter how expensive you assume it would be. The IS never had that option. The only way they obtained clan tech was through hard won salvage, and when they did get it, they didn't go put it up for market. They all hoarded the stuff for their own use. People need to stop assuming that they can just hit up the store and buy a madcat or vulture the day clans are implemented.

Edited by Synra, 02 July 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[Steamroller Stig]

honestly I don't see it being too much of an issue, just because after clan tech there isn't much left in the universe. although I am worried about clan mechs, gear, and weapons being better than IS tech in virtually every way, because that is the case in canon.

so I'm hoping for possible non canonical modifications to IS mechs, gear, and weapons that will bring them up to par with clan. Maybe IS mechs will have subtle advantages such as better turn rate, or other incomparables in the aforementioned video

IS mechs should favor hit and run warfare whereas clan mechs should favor raw power.

[Zynk]

No matter how much exp you have a newbie on his first day in an awesome can still kill you with a head shot.

[Ranek Blackstone]

William Petersen, on 02 July 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

CPU? O.o what are you talking about?

They must use the stock engine, it is not necessarily XL. There are a few (very few, because why not use Clan XL?) omnis who use standard fusion engines.

This is what I get for talking to someone about getting a new computer part while typing XD

What I meant was that the equipment that comes pre-installed can't be modified. Like the sensors package or ECM suite. The best way I see to balance clan tech is repair costs and utility limitations. They have much higher combat power then IS mechs, but they aren't as flexible.

[William Petersen]

Ranek Blackstone, on 02 July 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

This is what I get for talking to someone about getting a new computer part while typing XD

What I meant was that the equipment that comes pre-installed can't be modified. Like the sensors package or ECM suite. The best way I see to balance clan tech is repair costs and utility limitations. They have much higher combat power then IS mechs, but they aren't as flexible.

Ah, hehehe. No worries, it happens.

However, you are mistaken. Off the top of my head (and verified just to make certain I was correct), the Hellbringer Prime mounts an ECM, but is the only Hellbringer variant to do so. It also mounts a BAP, as does the H and A variants, but none of the others (I can't speak to sensors because I was never too clear on exactly how sensors worked in TT ::blush::).

There are a few cases where certain equipement is hard-wired, such as the Avatar's two MLas in the CT, but such cases are not too terribly common (to my knowledge, which I admit is fallable).

Another thing of note is that they sometimes have a number of heat sinks above 10 which cannot be removed For example, Timber Wolves have 15 hard-wired double heat-sinks, you can never have a Timber Wolf with fewer heat sinks or with single heat sinks.

Edited by William Petersen, 02 July 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

William Petersen, on 02 July 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

In BattleTech we already know what's coming: ClanTech and LosTech. <.<

Technically isnt lostech already there just not yet found?? And there isnt any really HUGE power jumps after Clan tech.

[Jer]

I am looking for some LBX Autocannon Lostech backed up by Clan Er Large Lasers on a loki or thor chasis.

[Katraz]

Jer, on 02 July 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

I am looking for some LBX Autocannon Lostech backed up by Clan Er Large Lasers on a loki or thor chasis.

Good Luck

[Terror Teddy]

Kraven Kor, on 02 July 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

So a Clan mech is going to outrange you, it is going to have more firepower, and is going to devote less tonnage to armor than you. That doesn't make it 'unbeatable' but it does give a serious advantage.

You forget that old mech designs will be upgraded as well. A 2048 Atlas vs an 2058 atlas will hav a 10 year advantage in almost every design field when it comes to new armor alloys, electronics, coolant design and weapon systems.

Clan mechs might have an INITIAL advantage but those are in measures of percentages. A clan mech might have 10% better average range, armor, damage and speed but that isnt gonna make them indestructible. That advantage will be wittled away as players in IS mechs replace their weaponry with clan weapons and have space over for more armor and perhaps lighter and more efficient armor.

It will be an arms race where the IS will be at an initial disadvantage.

Thats when you start fighting dirty with ambushes, cheap shots and stuff that no clanner would do.

[ScientificMethod]

I'm so glad to see the intelligence of these responses and the trust in Piranha Games to not screw this up. Aug 7th cannot get here soon enough. I am curious how they plan to make most of their money off this though since powercreep/making non-cannon material isn't really an option.

[Bodha]

Couple of things to note here.

1. Battletech has long had a battle value associated with the mechs (each variant would have a different value). The formula takes into account better versions of the same type of equipment. So hunchback with old tech has a lower value than a newer hunchback with an LBX-20 etc.

2. If the matchmaking system balances based upon battle values and NOT tonnage things will be fine. IF its based solely upon tonnage things will get ugly quick. Basically everyone will have to convert over to newer tech or be stomped. Somehow I don't see the dev's doing that. Even with them using BV's the clan tech and lostech that will be coming is a pretty big advantage. For those that don't know the clan versions of most weapons either flat out shoot significantly further, or do more damage. So in a typical engagement they can use long range stuff to engage at ranges well outside of the tech the inner sphere has.

3. The dev's want the game to successful. That means they can take advantage of computer tech to do cool things, but they can't stray too far from the existing canon and core ideas in the TT rules. btw, this doesnt mean they won't stray, but they will not stray without deliberate thought, too many fans from TT for them to ignore the TT rules and balancing.

[CW Grayson]

Solarisjock, on 02 July 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Honestly, I hope they use an economic system to balance it out. make the C-bills earned each match balanced for Tech 1 games. if you want to run your Expensive clan tech gear. Take a CERLL for example, your standard IS LL is about 100k C-bills while if i remeber correctly (at work away from books) a CERLL is 500k C-bills. meaning it should cost 5x as much to repair that super awesome clan tech.

Nope. If i have only 1 clanmech and it gets beaten, i still ALWAYS need to have enough credits to repair it, devs stated that you will NEVER be poor that you cannot repair and play further. Also, this would be a pay2win situation, this should never happen. Don't let any "i have a good mech, so i MUST pay2play" **** happen.

Wraeththix Constantine, on 02 July 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

There is no BV in MWO.

Now i would like to hear where you got that info, as it is the only way to make clanmechs/tech work. 4 Clanmechs vs 5 or 6 IS-mechs and so on, is the best way to deal with the better clantech. Nerfing the clantech is just so out of canon it wouldn't work. Whole point of the clans is, they have better tech but lesser numbers.
And no mindless mixtech for every mech, that's just an abomination (MW4 Black knight anyone?).
Much later there were SOME is-mechs with omni-hardpoints like the Avatar, but not simply fitting any clantech in any hardpoint.
Again, BattleValue is best pony. And if it's a 1vs1, just give the lower BattleValue mech more reward for winning, simple but works.

Edited by CW Grayson, 02 July 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[CCC Dober]

wanderer, on 02 July 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Rotary 10/20's never existed in canon. And frankly, there is no balance between Clan and IS gear. Nor could their be, other than literally limiting the Clan user's numbers to reduce broken-ness vs. a larger IS force.

Frankly, if Mektek didn't introduce them, somebody else would have done eventually. And I'm glad they did it because weapons such as these are easily overdone. Especially when you have only canon to base their values on. They did alright and the weapons are not nearly as OP as they could have been. I should know because I was 'involved' at that time. The RAC10 simply put the RAC20 into perspective because there was nothing in between to compare the devastating firepower of the RAC20 to the RAC5. Anyway, they do exist now and whether you consider them legit or not does not really matter to those people who have accepted them. They even spread to MWLL and both games are what you could consider standard these days. Like it or not, both weapons are here to stay.

[Bloodycrow]

CCC Dober, on 02 July 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

Frankly, if Mektek didn't introduce them, somebody else would have done eventually. And I'm glad they did it because weapons such as these are easily overdone. Especially when you have only canon to base their values on. They did alright and the weapons are not nearly as OP as they could have been. I should know because I was 'involved' at that time. The RAC10 simply put the RAC20 into perspective because there was nothing in between to compare the devastating firepower of the RAC20 to the RAC5. Anyway, they do exist now and whether you consider them legit or not does not really matter to those people who have accepted them. They even spread to MWLL and both games are what you could consider standard these days. Like it or not, both weapons are here to stay.

There's no RAC10 or RAC20 in MWLL.

[CCC Dober]

You forgot to add this -> 'yet'

While you don't get to play with it for now, you can be sure they have been tested internally.
I guess that's 1 point for the canon botherers over at MWLL. Damn shame to screw people out of the fun like that ...