176 replies to this topic

[CygnusX7]

Gyrok, on 29 April 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

IS has higher tonnage drop decks, with lighter mechs comparing favorably to heavier clan mechs was the point.

If Clans need a heavier mech to compete with a lighter mech, why is there a discrepancy in dropship tonnage?

Maybe it's the lighter weight, higher damage and longer range weapons they have...

[Gyrok]

CygnusX7, on 29 April 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

Maybe it's the lighter weight, higher damage and longer range weapons they have...

In the heavier tonnage mechs to match up...?

Dropdeck tonnage has nothing to do with weapons...when a 65 ton mech does as good a job (better in some cases) as a 75 ton mech...there is an issue...especially when the team with more effective 65 ton mechs has more tonnage to play with...

[CygnusX7]

Weapons have a lot to do with it, mainly that IS weapons weigh more for less damage and range of Clan weapons.
When you can run a C ER-ML that is basically an IS LL at 1/5 the weight.. It matters.

Edited by CygnusX7, 29 April 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[Mercules]

Novawrecker, on 29 April 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

By your logic, that makes you clanners even worse sheep for running Timbers.

I don't even own a Timberwolf.... Or a Stalker for that matter.

[Summon3r]

Kain Thul, on 28 April 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

The biggest problem is I have to see thread after thread about it every day for no reason whatsoever.

amen bro

[Mcgral18]

Zolaz, on 29 April 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:

Put some Large Lasers with a targeting computer on your Timberwolf ... tada

Larges are generally a poor idea. Burn time, exposure and all that. They let you match IS max range, which is nice I guess.

Large Pulses are what compare to IS LLs. Still worse than the lightweight low heat ER LPLs some IS robots have, but still nice weapons. Better than the vanilla LLs, which few use.

I await the Timby A-LT, to finally have a high mounted hardpoint. Behind a paywall for now. I think the Crow is the only thing that comes close at the moment, with the Hunch still cresting before the cockpit. Ah, the Loki. It has one excellent mount, one decent, and two above average E mounts.
Shadowcat will bring some more...but loadouts are still somewhat sad. 2 ERMLs LPL seems to be the only sustainable loadout (with 17 DHS). A fat Koshi firepower wise, but considerable better heat efficiency. I guess the ECM will help, but it will get murdered up close by even a Locust for lack of firepower (if relying on the 3 E hardpoints).

[CygnusX7]

When a Clanner wants to compare a clan weapon to an IS LL they use C-LPL because a C-LPL weighs more, has less range with the same heat. Lets ignore the fact that a C ER-ML weighs 1/5 what the IS LL weighs even though it has basically the same range, heat, duration and faster cool down.

With the same weight as a single IS LL a clanner can throw 35 damage almost the same distance (same distance with range module).

C ER-ML 7 damage, 6 heat, 3 cool down, 405 range, 1 ton, 1.15 duration
IS LLaser 9 damage, 7 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 450 range, 5 tons, 1.00 duration.
C LPL 13 damage, 7 heat, 3.25 cool down, 365 range, 7 tons .67 duration.

Edited by CygnusX7, 29 April 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[Mcgral18]

CygnusX7, on 29 April 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

When a Clanner wants to compare a clan weapon to an IS LL they use C-LPL because a C-LPL weighs more, has less range with the same heat. Lets ignore the fact that a C ER-ML weighs 1/5 what the IS LL weighs even though it has basically the same range, heat, duration and faster cool down.

With the same weight as a single IS LL a clanner can throw 35 damage almost the same distance (same distance with range module).

C ER-ML 7 damage, 6 heat, 3 cool down, 405 range, 1 ton, 1.15 duration
IS LLaser 9 damage, 7 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 450 range, 5 tons, 1.00 duration.
C LPL 11 damage, 7 heat, 3.25 cool down, 365 range, 7 tons .67 duration.

Least you forget the 20+ DHS required to use that loadout.

Both, I suppose.

isLPL is 11 damage, cLPL is 13. I guess you just put the C there by accident.

Edited by Mcgral18, 29 April 2015 - 11:35 AM.

[CygnusX7]

Mcgral18, on 29 April 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

Least you forget the 20+ DHS required to use that loadout.

Both, I suppose.

isLPL is 11 damage, cLPL is 13. I guess you just put the C there by accident.

Yes, I meant to show the C LPL specs. Thanks.
Yet the standard CW SCR build is 4-5mL and a C-LPL with 22DHS.

Edited by CygnusX7, 29 April 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 29 April 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Large Pulses are what compare to IS LLs. Still worse than the lightweight low heat ER LPLs some IS robots have

I just use CMPLs for my pulse laser needs when I want that specific playstyle.

I can't touch the range some quirked mechs can get, but straight LPL focused mechs are pretty few and far between now (Arrow, TDR-9SE, STK-5S, La Malinche).


I did manage to get them to 385M on a WHK-C build, but that's a pretty oddball loadout I wouldn't necessarily recommend to everyone.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 29 April 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 29 April 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

I just use CMPLs for my pulse laser needs when I want that specific playstyle.

I can't touch the range some quirked mechs can get, but straight LPL focused mechs are pretty few and far between now (Arrow, TDR-9SE, STK-5S, La Malinche).


I did manage to get them to 385M on a WHK-C build, but that's a pretty oddball loadout I wouldn't necessarily recommend to everyone.

That was in reference to apparently misreading quirks. Still impressive, but shorter range. 20% !=40%


MPLs don't do it for me. I've been forced to go dual Timby with appropriate laservomit. Nothing else can trade and come out equal or on top.

A LT will make it even worse (or I suppose better in my case). Perhaps I'll throw some Shadowcats in there when the time comes.
I await 3 high mounted lasers, with another 3 backup ERSLs for a 62 point alpha when things manage to close. Shame about Mr Gargles though.

Then again, out of 28 matches, only three have been 8 mans or greater, you really don't need to tryhard dropdeck unless you get terrible luck.

[Fate 6]

Mcgral18, on 29 April 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

That was in reference to apparently misreading quirks. Still impressive, but shorter range. 20% !=40%


MPLs don't do it for me. I've been forced to go dual Timby with appropriate laservomit. Nothing else can trade and come out equal or on top.

A LT will make it even worse (or I suppose better in my case). Perhaps I'll throw some Shadowcats in there when the time comes.
I await 3 high mounted lasers, with another 3 backup ERSLs for a 62 point alpha when things manage to close. Shame about Mr Gargles though.

Then again, out of 28 matches, only three have been 8 mans or greater, you really don't need to tryhard dropdeck unless you get terrible luck.

You say you go dual Timby like taking 2 of the best mech in the game is a bad thing.

[Mcgral18]

Fate 6, on 29 April 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

You say you go dual Timby like taking 2 of the best mech in the game is a bad thing.

Being pigeonholed into robots isn't what I call fun.


At least they have a couple good robots.

[Redjack3]

Poisoner, on 28 April 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

So let me ask this, when IS players fight each other do they just meta each other to death with STKs and TDRs?

Yes, in IS vs IS the team with significantly more STKs and TDRs wins. If both teams bring them, then it is an even, well-balanced match whose outcome is determined by the players' skills and strategies instead of the mechlab. I much prefer fighting IS vs IS because both teams have the same equipment.

[InspectorG]

Ultimatum X, on 29 April 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

If they gave me some high energy mounts for my WHK, it would be my outright favorite mech. (I hope they do this, even though it's not in the cards).

Agreed. Clans are gimped with the arm weapon placements.

A 'Timby-A' 3E ST pod with the hardpoints nice and high would change this whole mess.

Then it would become Stalker vs Warhawk shoot outs at the OK Corral.

Boreal? Sit in the back and burn the gates at 1600m, watch the Stalker beams stop short of your face. Yay TC7!

[Telmasa]

El Bandito, on 28 April 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

It seems you have mistaken CW for something that is less tryhard. One mech will always be considered top pick for the weight, and CW players, being the tryhards they are, will pick only that mech. Does not matter which mech it is. Should 4N be nerfed, people will simply spam the next best thing. There is no breaking that cycle. Same deal with the Timbie, really. If it is nerfed enough, people will spam Hellbies instead.

This is just so not true. You break the cycle by assymetrically balancing everything at once, not just pulling a couple variables up and down here or there. Is it easy? Not necessarily. But it's not impossible either.

A good start would be to stop using the fake 5-tier system, and balance mechs according to performance-by-tonnage - some metric that all mechs can fit into regardless of player skill or favoritism.

[jlawsl]

Ultimatum X, on 29 April 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

Yes. Two whole, entire, points of damage – for the cost of SIX extra tons of weapons.

I think if one mech spends 30 tons on lasers and another mech spends 24 tons on lasers, that the mech that spent 30 tons doing an extra 2 points of damage is getting the worse deal.


0.12s of burn time, for an extra 90M range. Seems fair.










Smurfy's says 79.80 heat for 6x LLAS.






6x LLAS = 79.80 heat
79.80 - 20% (15.96) = 63.84 heat

How did you arrive at 33.6 heat?




SO to recap:


WHK
* Alpha hit 64% heat cap
* 10 to 10.5s to cool to 0% after alpha

STK-4N:
* Alpha hit 72% heat cap
* 13 to 13.5s to cool to 0% after alpha
(You can confirm these numbers if you watch my testing videos).


The Warhawk has 28 DHS, and the Stalker has 20 DHS.

The means the WHK has a higher heat cap, and also cools off faster.





Even when firing "half volleys" where the Stalker's quirks have the best impact (27 damage for 16.8 heat) the Warhawk's higher heat capacity & faster cooling allows it to keep pace.

Thing glitched and erased my reply. I did the math without adding in the ghost heat, hence 20% of each laser times the total number of lasers: -(.2(7))+7=5.6(6)=33.6

So, 33.6 heat is what it produces without ghost heat, or as you quoted "half volleys", 3 LLs firing at a time. 20% of the modified heat on the chart brings it to a 54 point alpha with 63.84 heat compared to the 52 damage, 59.2 heat alpha for the 4 CERLPLs. Long story short, I was playing the devil's advocate, but you pointed out something valid-the number of heat sinks. A Warhawk is going to have similar heat characteristics as a quirked Stalker because of the amount of heatsinks it can carry(heat generation vs dissipation). The Stalker does slightly more damage while the Warhawk has slightly better range.

So, there we have it-I guess the lesson here is that if clan players want to go face to face with an 85 ton assault, then they should bring 85 ton assaults instead of trying to go head on with 55 and 75 ton mechs. The stats are mostly balanced from my point of view.

[Uncle Totty]

Fate 6, on 28 April 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

What's wrong with it is that Clan players can't handle the IS being able to effectively mount a counter

Not every Clansmen has the Timber Wolf A.

[ILikePeaches]

Nathan K, on 29 April 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Not every Clansmen has the Timber Wolf A.

And not every IS player has a 4N. What's your point? All I hear is clanners complaining that their heavy mech can't trade 1v1 with an IS assault that is specifically designed to trade lasers at range. You can always dump LRMs on the stalkers.

Edited by ILikePeaches, 29 April 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

ILikePeaches, on 29 April 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

And not every IS player has a 4N. What's your point? All I hear is clanners complaining that their heavy mech can't trade 1v1 with an IS assault that is specifically designed to trade lasers at range. You can always dump LRMs on the stalkers.

True. Some have 3Fs, some have 3Hs, some have 5Ms...