244 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

I get a kill in 75% percent of the matches I drop in... That does not sound inherently inferior Bish. That is Commandos for me. Where in 40 matches I have 0 kills and 39 deaths. THAT shows inferiority at least in my handling of the Mech. Now StJobe would probably show that the Mech isn't inferior just the pilot(meaning me in a commando).

In virtually every mech I drop in, I get 1.5 or more kills per match, and I'm not even very good. Not getting a kill in every match on average, means you are not carrying your minimum weight for the team, sorry.

But any mech with less than a 1:1 kill per match, just like a 1:1 KDr, and a 1:1 W/L, is sub par.

This isn't baseball, where mediocrity IS the standard.

[Averen]

Sarlic, on 11 July 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

So a Grid iron can fire his gauss rifle about the double rate of speed while a Assault with the same gun fire less? Or a Huggin with SRMs4 with a coolrate quirk of about 25%? Or the Hunchback with the same tech as in my Atlas can fire his AC/20 much faster.

Give me tat magical device and i will glue it my cockpit!

Quirks are stupid to begin with IMO. I have never been fan of how PGI applies quirks. Sure without quirks alot of mechs wouldnt be on the field, but then again i would have rather seen a different solution to 'buff' mechs.

The one really broken things are clans. So we either nerf clans into the ground, or we quirk IS mechs up. Former is better for gameplay reasons, latter is possible without pissing of a part of the playerbase. Not that it is sustainable, I hope PGIs balance plans are sweeping. Anything else is just bad for the game. Has been bad for the game.

Huggins have 50% btw.
And you know the funny thing? Huggins aren't even the best raven variant! Similarly the hunchie is a solid (BUT SO FUN) mech now, even if nowhere a master class. Before it was just dead.#

And for the future: Imagine a hunchie running at 80kph, having two hunches with gauß shielding the CT stalker-style, both CASE secured and XL-safe. 5 tons of ammo and a jumpjet. That's the mess we're moving towards right now. Our Grid Iron will look like a joke, just like every gauß jager that ever left it's hangar.

Edited by Averen, 11 July 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

RS owns the K. Dual AMS might have moderate viability in Underhive LRM warrior. Quad LL + Gauss and 325std RS still wrecks pretty well, and when playing Hivites, will be more useful than 2 AMS. Yes the BH obsoletes it, but only if you are wanting to spend 35 USD.

You want AMS as your reason for existence, grab a Kitfox with 3 and ECM, and leave your Assault slot for a mech that can actually assault something.

Hah! "Atlas" and "assault" does not go together in the first place. No matter which variant you bring you are better off bringing a Banshee/Stalker/Buttmaster/KGC.

[Sarlic]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

RS owns the K. Dual AMS might have moderate viability in Underhive LRM warrior. Quad LL + Gauss and 325std RS still wrecks pretty well, and when playing Hivites, will be more useful than 2 AMS. Yes the BH obsoletes it, but only if you are wanting to spend 35 USD.

You want AMS as your reason for existence, grab a Kitfox with 3 and ECM, and leave your Assault slot for a mech that can actually assault something.


If you just plan to peek and poke your LL, upgrade to ERLLs. You won't likely be blending them with your short range all that much anyhow, and get much better useful range for poking.

RS is the only Atlas I'll run, so maybe I'm biased. But I find the mandatory face hugging range SRM reliant Atlases need a massive detriment, particularly without ECM.

And yes Joe, I know, "you do just fine in yours". But at your claimed damage levels you better be top 3 in your match every time, or you really aren't doing "fine", even at your comp level.

I personally like the K better. It's suits me more then the RS. I switched to LL due the quirks i believe. Got a extra range and cooldown on the LL and not on the ER. Could be wrong.

Anyway i will give the RS a spin soon. See how it goes.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

In virtually every mech I drop in, I get 1.5 or more kills per match, and I'm not even very good. Not getting a kill in every match on average, means you are not carrying your minimum weight for the team, sorry.

But any mech with less than a 1:1 kill per match, just like a 1:1 KDr, and a 1:1 W/L, is sub par.

This isn't baseball, where mediocrity IS the standard.

Exactly. I AM not Not the Mech. Its the Pilot that makes or breaks a ride. By My record in a Hunchback, I should be on here saying they suck eggs! 1W/3L, 1K/3D 134 points of Damage average. Bet you have a much better record than me. So who would have a better understanding for the Hunchback You or me Bish?

It isn't the Atlas that sucks.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 July 2015 - 06:00 AM.

[Sarlic]

Averen, on 11 July 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

The one really broken things are clans. So we eithe nerf clans into the ground, or we quirk IS mechs up. Former is better for gameplay reasons, latter is possible without pissing of a part of the playerbase. Not that it is sustainable, I hope PGIs balance plans are sweeping. Anything else is just bad for the game. Has been bad for the game.

Huggins have 50% btw.
And you know the funny thing? Huggins aren't even the best raven variant! Similarly the hunchie is a solid (BUT SO FUN) mech now, even if nowhere a master class. Before it was just dead.

Let's see what Russ comes up with his idea of a total balance overhaul. I'm curious.

Edited by Sarlic, 11 July 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[Averen]

Sarlic, on 11 July 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

Let's see what Russ comes up with his idea of a total balance overhaul. I'm curious.

I'm too. This game is just too unique to give it up without giving them a chance.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

Exactly. I AM not Not the Mech. Its the Pilot that makes or breaks a ride. By My record in a Hunchback, I should be on here saying they suck eggs! 1W/3L, 1K/3D 134 points of Damage average. Bet you have a much better record than me. So who would have a better understanding for the Hunchback You or me Bish?

It isn't the Atlas that sucks.

Yes, yes it is. Because it's not just how things work for you, in your bubble. Advertise the board, there vast majority will agree the Atlas is sub par. You doing "well", relative to your other mechs is like me claiming the VND is fine and the best medium, because I can coax performance or of it. It's not.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

Yes, yes it is. Because it's not just how things work for you, in your bubble. Advertise the board, there vast majority will agree the Atlas is sub par. You doing "well", relative to your other mechs is like me claiming the VND is fine and the best medium, because I can coax performance or of it. It's not.

Most people also will always want more better Bish. No matter how good something is. I am satisfied with the Atlas. I was satisfied with it before quirks. I don't care how many people think something needs "fixed" I won't agree if I don't. I won't just be quiet cause I don't have the popular opinion. PGI should hear us all and decide.

And there are almost always more people willing to complain than there is to say something is good.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 July 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

Most people also will always want more better Bish. No matter how good something is. I am satisfied with the Atlas. I was satisfied with it before quirks. I don't care how many people think something needs "fixed" I won't agree if I don't. I won't just be quiet cause I don't have the popular opinion. PGI should hear us all and decide.

And there are almost always more people willing to complain than there is to say something is good.

If you were there only Atlas pilot, or even representative of the average that might be relevant. If hard number and statistics showed the Atlas performing similar to other 100tonners, the same.

Neither is the case.

The Atlas is below the median. Thus in this type of game, it needs improvement

[Sarlic]

Both have your own opinion about it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

If you were there only Atlas pilot, or even representative of the average that might be relevant. If hard number and statistics showed the Atlas performing similar to other 100tonners, the same.

Neither is the case.

The Atlas is below the median. Thus in this type of game, it needs improvement

I just have to disagree. I am representative of a below average Atlas pilot. and for that matter MW:O player. We only have 3 100 ton Mechs right now and the Atlas is the only one that can't dual wield AC20s, and depending on the other pilot I have owned King Crabs and Dire Wolves. I still stand by the pilot makes the Mech.

Sarlic, on 11 July 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

Both have your own opinion about it.

Yup, and we aren't arguing so much as trading our opinions. At least I hope Bish isn't getting upset, cause I'm not reading his posts with anything but friendly disagreement, and replying with the same.

As an FYI: I have a friend that thinks the King Crab is "all that" Since its release on TT. I think its good. Neither of us have budged in 20ish years!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 July 2015 - 06:43 AM.

[Koniving]

Anyone remember back in the day when Atlases would tank like a bowse?

Anyone?
Back then it had, like the Stalker, GIGANTIC OVERSIZED SIDE HITBOXES WITH 50% DAMAGE REDUCTION WHEN THE SIDE TORSO WAS DESTROYED! O_O!

Now, it has 60% damage reduction (40% transfer) when the side torso is destroyed... and more evenly sized hitboxes... and it still comes apart like paper maché.

What changed?

Threshold limitations (more heatsinks possible with Clan mechs and generally more heatsinks per mech [since XL engines have become super popular] means higher thresholds can be attained. A raise to 20% additional threshold for elite Heat Containment from 12%, from 10%, from 8%, from 5%), heat reduction quirks (allowing more to be fired before overheating, negating many ghost heat issues), cooldown quirks (allowing weapons to be fired more frequently making twisting and other protective measures more difficult to pull off), and the list just keeps going and going.

<.< Just food for thought.

[SgtMagor]

My Atlas cries everyday, " I'm not the mech I used to be!"

[Joseph Mallan]

My Atlas still waddles out and wrecks house against all but the players who are better than me.

[Rebas Kradd]

Koniving, on 11 July 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Anyone remember back in the day when Atlases would tank like a bowse?

Anyone?
Back then it had, like the Stalker, GIGANTIC OVERSIZED SIDE HITBOXES WITH 50% DAMAGE REDUCTION WHEN THE SIDE TORSO WAS DESTROYED! O_O!

Now, it has 60% damage reduction (40% transfer) when the side torso is destroyed... and more evenly sized hitboxes... and it still comes apart like paper maché.

What changed?

Threshold limitations (more heatsinks possible with Clan mechs and generally more heatsinks per mech [since XL engines have become super popular] means higher thresholds can be attained. A raise to 20% additional threshold for elite Heat Containment from 12%, from 10%, from 8%, from 5%), heat reduction quirks (allowing more to be fired before overheating, negating many ghost heat issues), cooldown quirks (allowing weapons to be fired more frequently making twisting and other protective measures more difficult to pull off), and the list just keeps going and going.

<.< Just food for thought.

Not to mention 12v12.

[Mavairo]

The Fatlas is inferior to even the Battlemaster.

Pre, and current meta both.
My Atlases sit collecting dust, and leaking oil.

[Boulangerie]

Atlas is my only owned assault chassis. Bought it because the D-DC was owning faces and one of only a few ECM mechs at the time.

I occasionally do very well with them. I occasionally suck with them.

I think it is very hard to assess the overall performance of a mech based on such small sample size as has been introduced in this thread. I am a below average pilot according to K/D, yet have positive won loss on many mechs. My Hbk-4sp is 1k/12d and yet is 10-2 win loss.

Stats are great for whatever argument you want to make, especially when observer bias and sampling error are involved.

We would really need to dive into some game-wide stats like
*Overall usage of Atlas (not perfect but it can indicate a potential imbalance, or just be a quirk in the player base)
*Total win/loss rate for games involving 1 Atlas on one team (does the only team with an atlas consistently win more games? This would have to be normalized somewhat eliminating games with massive tonnage imbalances )
*Total win/loss rate for games with more than one atlas on just one side (same reasons as above)
*Avg damage done by Atlas pilots per game, sorted by Elo rankings.
*Avg damage taken by Atlas pilots per game, sorted by ELO.

I would love to see stats like these for Atlas and its Competitors. Personally, I feel as if I should be doing better with the atlas, however, I haven't played the other assaults much except for trial mechs

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

My Atlas still waddles out and wrecks house against all but the players who are better than me.

Doubtful. I'm willing to bet some guys your level or lower wreck you regularly in SCRs, TBRs and DWFs, because those mechs are all that much better. What it means, is when you wreck those, those pilots were simply THAT MUCH WORSE than you.

The pilot is important, but simple truth is, there are mechs that are better than others.

Boulangerie, on 11 July 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Atlas is my only owned assault chassis. Bought it because the D-DC was owning faces and one of only a few ECM mechs at the time.

I occasionally do very well with them. I occasionally suck with them.

I think it is very hard to assess the overall performance of a mech based on such small sample size as has been introduced in this thread. I am a below average pilot according to K/D, yet have positive won loss on many mechs. My Hbk-4sp is 1k/12d and yet is 10-2 win loss.

Stats are great for whatever argument you want to make, especially when observer bias and sampling error are involved.

We would really need to dive into some game-wide stats like
*Overall usage of Atlas (not perfect but it can indicate a potential imbalance, or just be a quirk in the player base)
*Total win/loss rate for games involving 1 Atlas on one team (does the only team with an atlas consistently win more games? This would have to be normalized somewhat eliminating games with massive tonnage imbalances )
*Total win/loss rate for games with more than one atlas on just one side (same reasons as above)
*Avg damage done by Atlas pilots per game, sorted by Elo rankings.
*Avg damage taken by Atlas pilots per game, sorted by ELO.

I would love to see stats like these for Atlas and its Competitors. Personally, I feel as if I should be doing better with the atlas, however, I haven't played the other assaults much except for trial mechs

a really easy way to determine is a mech is good or not? How often do you see it featured in High Elo tournaments like RHoD? You can claim pilot all you want, or meta, but simple fact is, if the Atlas was effective, it would be represented. Outside of the increasingly rare ECM carrier, it doesn't exist in serious play. (in part because since LRMs are a laughable waste at that level, the ECM is not near the value it is in Scrub-to-average tiers).

[Mavairo]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Doubtful. I'm willing to bet some guys your level or lower wreck you regularly in SCRs, TBRs and DWFs, because those mechs are all that much better. What it means, is when you wreck those, those pilots were simply THAT MUCH WORSE than you.

The pilot is important, but simple truth is, there are mechs that are better than others.


a really easy way to determine is a mech is good or not? How often do you see it featured in High Elo tournaments like RHoD? You can claim pilot all you want, or meta, but simple fact is, if the Atlas was effective, it would be represented. Outside of the increasingly rare ECM carrier, it doesn't exist in serious play. (in part because since LRMs are a laughable waste at that level, the ECM is not near the value it is in Scrub-to-average tiers).

The only reason I'm in a Fatlas right now is because I've been playing world of warships. I play Battleships over there, so the waddle in theory won't bother me as much. That'll last as long as it takes for me to be bored and get in a Real Mech again.